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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

TeAXIIIT13 wrote:
... all they need is one guy in the office to make a 7th edition datasheet for all the new models, release them for free and those of us that want to play 7th...

To be completely fair, if 7th edition had Datasheets it would help. I do NOT miss flipping through 3-4 books to play a game. I like being able to look at one page and see everything a squad or model can do.

But 7th had its busted elements, too.

There was no point at all in putting certain gear on units for melee combat. Going up against Eldar? Pfft. Don't bother.

A Leman Russ tank had 4 different weapon systems manned by 4 different crew members, and they all had to fire at the same target. Which meant nearly every vehicle in the game had to be mono-built for a purpose.

Deep Strike was a gamble and almost pointless sometimes. Basically a suicide harassment attack at best.

I hate to be “that guy” but the unit entries in 7th where called Datasheets, also I played against eldar “a lot” with orks and never once felt they were overpowered and won fairly often

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:


Deep Strike was a gamble and almost pointless sometimes. Basically a suicide harassment attack at best.

In truth, I preferred the 7th ed deep strike mechanic. It was a high risk, high reward maneuver. Now everyone just loads up on plasma and gets guaranteed rapid firing overcharged plasma shots.

IDK, I just find the current version a little on the dull side, I guess because it is so reliable.

Having said that, I certainly don't miss drop pods breaking all the deep strike rules and giving guaranteed melta/flamer shots on any target you want.

But I suppose I didn't use deep strike much last edition (orks).

That was the problem, no one really used basic deepstrike. It was all drop pods and cenrtainty, no practical reward and all risk otherwise really.

To be fair, 7E Deep Strike was the least risky before 8E. Compared to 5E or especially 3E/4E mishaps, reserves, and terrain rules, 7E was practically guaranteed safe

Im loving 8th, i didnt like it when it first came out (or rather when the indexes leaked and i played my first 10 or so games) but the more games i played the better it got and now I really enjoy it. Its simple enough to play and i find a bit smoother and less clunky than 7th. Its by no means perfect but its good. Not to say I hate 7th and i hope heresy stays 7th maybe with a few more tweaks and as 7th ita a better ruleset for that game all in all. But 8th ed 40k? Big fan and looking forward to the rest of the codexes to bring the struggling index armies up to level. (tau and necrons specifically)

Considering I more or less quit for almost 10 years shortly after the launch of 5th edition and 8th was the edition that actually brought me back and got me to buy models again, I'm happy with it.

Vastly superior to really any previous edition as far as I'm concerned.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, 7E Deep Strike was the least risky before 8E. Compared to 5E or especially 3E/4E mishaps, reserves, and terrain rules, 7E was practically guaranteed safe

Tell me about it! You touched a twig? Sorry, the whole unit is dead. Haha.

I'm fine with 8th being very safe, because it's very safe for everyone, nearly everyone has a lot of access to it if they'd like, and the near-universal "start more than 9 inches away" bit makes it both good and risky at the same time.

Area buffs and no real terrain rules turned it into blob hammer with occasional assault counter-metas that fold the moment they meet proper bauble wrap. 90% armies are a migthy pack grouped around characters sitting statically in their deployment zone. And with how los and terrain works now, it has an even smaller impact on the game than it had before.

Pretty dull overall.
Listbuilding is still more interesting than actual playing.

I don't care for it. I play it here and there, but my enthusiasm and excitement quickly plummeted once I saw how easy it was to game the system and spam units. I'm much more interested in AOS. Sadly 40k remains king of the hill here so i am reluctant to drop it completely but I am focused on growing the AOS community here instead of really caring about 40k. Like for example my FLGS has its first 40k tournament in like 2 years and the first of 2018 tomorrow, and I'm not at all interested in it despite planning to attend.

Isn't aos also a blob-hammer game?

 koooaei wrote:
Isn't aos also a blob-hammer game?

I love that people are calling 40k Blobhammer because "blobs are op" and here I am considering taking a 3-model army to a 1500 point game tonight and the only reason I might not is it's too OP.

Blobs indeed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I love that people are calling 40k Blobhammer because "blobs are op" and here I am considering taking a 3-model army to a 1500 point game tonight and the only reason I might not is it's too OP.

I love blobs.

I've got plenty of stuff in my army that shoots a lot of bullets.

Can't buff a pile of dead dudes.

Oh look I have snipers...

Dead dudes can't buff anyone.

Well, I'm going to have my first game this year (and a first in half a year) tomorrow and it'll be 7th ed game (though heavily, heavily modified 7th). 8th ed lasted just a dozen games for me and it really doesn't offer experience I seek in 40k without some heavy lifting, which I have already made for 7th. Maybe I'll "upgrade" somewhere around 9th or 10th ed, when they finally "bloat over" some oversimplifications.

 Elbows wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
Other than the brand new player in our group who just started in 8th edition we seem to be pretty bored of it, rarely getting in more than 2-3 games a month. When the index's came out most of our games came down to the last turn, now, generally it's over by turn 2 or 3 and 90% most the time whoever went first won (need to introduce alternating turns like in Necromunda) we decided to use it as a place holder until necromunda came out when the dex's dropped... then Necromunda was released. and I realized I had to buy a box set with 2 ganngs I didnt care about THEN purchase another rulebook outside of that to use 3D terrain and I possibly download something to use all the legacy gangs? I said feth it and printed the community edition for free.

Maybe when GW introduces BFG I'll create a fun campaign for us to incorporate both but like it's been stated earlier. I'll be using 40k as a fun beer and pretzel fluff match and Necromunda CE as my fun balanced story driven missions.

I have to ask, though, in all honesty...has 40K ever been anything beyond beer and pretzels fluff matches? Even in its crunchiest mode...that's all I've ever seen it as. It's never been hugely deep or strategic, etc.

in 6th and 7th army building and unit positioning were much more strategic although there were plenty of broken combos vehicles had to worry about position, units had to worry about spacing due to templates, a lot more thought had to go into turns vs. now when you might as well play rock papers scissors and add D6. I'm not saying 7th was a "better" edition by any means but I do believe it was more strategic. not just "expensive risk"

It sounds like moaning but I am becoming more hostile by the day to 8th edition.

Its less a war game and more a card game like MTG/Heathstone. It feels gimmicky rather than representing a "real" skirmish/battle.

In a card game that isn't too bad - if win/lose, just play another hand. They only take say 10-20 minutes.

Warmahordes 2nd edition (not played since 3rd dropped) felt a bit like this - and that can be quite quick to play because its a skirmish game. With short games its fine its all about list building.

In 40k though even the quickest game (including terrain, deployment etc) still takes around 90 minutes. So I don't feel you can't just stack the odds and roll the dice and then win or lose play again. Discrete games have to matter more. Which they don't when its all gimmicky stratagem shenanigans.

Tyel wrote:
It sounds like moaning but I am becoming more hostile by the day to 8th edition.

Its less a war game and more a card game like MTG/Heathstone. It feels gimmicky rather than representing a "real" skirmish/battle.

In a card game that isn't too bad - if win/lose, just play another hand. They only take say 10-20 minutes.

Warmahordes 2nd edition (not played since 3rd dropped) felt a bit like this - and that can be quite quick to play because its a skirmish game. With short games its fine its all about list building.

In 40k though even the quickest game (including terrain, deployment etc) still takes around 90 minutes. So I don't feel you can't just stack the odds and roll the dice and then win or lose play again. Discrete games have to matter more. Which they don't when its all gimmicky stratagem shenanigans.

Agreed!

Our last game was 650pl and after the first turn we really couldn't bear to keep playing. 40k was never super complex but 8th just feels so hollow!

Its less a war game and more a card game like MTG/Heathstone. It feels gimmicky rather than representing a "real" skirmish/battle.

Precisely. It is indeed one step removed from a board game and borrows a lot from collectible card games.

You could with a little effort make a ruleset that uses most of 40k now only replace the model with cards and get a very close experience to the game with models.

You could have cards that are your units. Roll for initiative. If you win, your cards shoot your opponents cards, then you pick a few cards to assault. Roll a bunch of dice. Use tokens to keep track of health. Remove cards as they are slain.

Terrain is equally not important, you don't have to paint models, maneuvering is rather simple and easy since you can move so fast or just teleport into combat on turn 1, facings don't matter, and you are getting close to the same experience. Most of the meat of the game comes in the card combination choices.

The thing is, this approach... this movement away from traditional wargames with miniatures and into the realm of FFG style gamey games that do not use intuitive rules but rather gamey rules, or deckbuilding style games is making them money hand over first.

I'm with the people who feels its too simple.

I get that vehicle arcs and templates slowed the game down and cover caused a lot of issues, but it made the board we played that I play on feel relevant.

The combination of poor cover rules, lack of firing/armor arcs, and incentive to blob make this game feel like it has no real reason to maneuver. Which (at least for me) was one of the reasons to play.

I feel conflicted as well because 8th ed brought a lot of good as well though. The introduction of Multi-Damage weapons, movement stats, and a lot of other small tweaks were really beneficial to the game and solved a lot of problems.

But it tilts me that a landraider can fire all of its weapons out of its adamantium tailpipe and ignores intervening cover when it does so.

This edition made positioning matter far less then 7th or 5th which is my gripe with it.

Perhaps I should clarify my above post:
My Guard army is, fluff wise, a crack veteran unit of mechanised infantry with an attached small armoured formation. I essence they are highly mobile shock troops, intended to be the first into the breach when it is created, widening it and forcing a proper corridor through which the rest of the army can flow. When deployed defensively they are held in reserve until needed, when they move in to plug a breach or bolster a weakened section. When sent behind enemy lines they form a mobile column and harass enemy forces, using their speed and manoeuvrability to strike quickly and then withdraw, leaving shattered remnants of their foes as a silent testament to their presence.
They are mobile, elite and well trained and experienced.

What this translates too in game is a bunch of overpriced 'Elite' infantry who can no longer take carapace armour, the armour that my infantry used, riding around in a bunch of extremely overpriced transports and being spearheaded by a unit of heavy tanks that only just manage to scramble at being competitive. I dont want to have to bring Celestine and my Sisters of Silence and my Baneblades, but if I want to compete then I have too.
You see, just because some Guard builds are able to compete, it does not mean that all are.

Personally, I was never in it for the games. However, I will say that 8th is a step in the right direction.
I am glad that they have given us road maps as to when to expect faqs and Chapter approved.
Models have continued to be top notch. The Fluff is relatively meh. Hoping we get more xenos stuff soon.

If they made real terrain rules and found some way to chill out with the turn 1 alpha striking it’d be 1000x better. We found the terrain rules easy to fix locally, but dang way too many games are over in the list building/top half of the 1st turn without them and sometimes with them.

I dunno. Long range shooting penalties, some defensive advantage for the 2nd player, something.

The simple playability of this edition is nice, but it’s rare for a game to get past turn 3 without us getting bored and either starting over or playing something else.

Been playing weekly since launch. Still haven't played a single matched play game. And we always talk about what sort of stuff we might take and what sort of scenario we might do. Or use Open War cards and then pick our stuff. And anytime we take vehicles or big monster we tell the opponent in advance so they can take one too or bring the right sort of weapons. We see it as the other side being able to scout out larger things like vehicles and behemoths so they get to know about them in advance.

Still absolutely love it. Best Open/Nar version of 40k yet.

I hate that 8-th provides even less possibilities to mixing up different types of units. Not that 5-th, 6-th or 7-th were great at it but i could always take a trukk or two full of tankbustas or meganobz and not feel like a liability. Now it's completely unacceptable cause trukks are too expensive cause they're "tough" vehicles that die emidiately vs any anti-tank and manz eat the rest and go down 1-st turn. And we're back to spamming one unit type all over again. Boyz, boyz, boyz...occasional stormboyz that are boyz with jump packs and kommandoes that are boyz with infiltrate. Buff characters and maybe kustom mega kannons. Can throw out the rest of the index - won't feel the difference.

I get that vehicle arcs and templates slowed the game down and cover caused a lot of issues, but it made the board we played that I play on feel relevant.

Indeed, the board is less relevant now when compared with previous editions.
The game feels like a board game since maneuverability is no issue now.

Orks got slammed hard with the new edition but other than that I love it. Just waiting on the ork codex and then I will be happy.

I am deeply saddened by the new edition. While I appreciate the effort, the new edition’s rules are far too streamlined for me to enjoy.

I don’t mean to derail the thread, but if I had a choice now between old WFB&40k and the new AoS and 8th, I would choose the older way of doing things.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Isn't aos also a blob-hammer game?

I love that people are calling 40k Blobhammer because "blobs are op" and here I am considering taking a 3-model army to a 1500 point game tonight and the only reason I might not is it's too OP.

Blobs indeed.

Only 4-5 armies out of the 20+ possible ones can actually field blobs and hordes. Some of them can also play decently without taking countless cheap bodies. Only because the most competitive lists are hordes it doesn't mean that the game is dominated by them, IMHO all the units/characters should be considered.

The thing with the board and cover is that you a) yes, the cover system isn't good, and b) you need to put much more terrain on the table, including actual line of sight blockers. The game gets a lot better in e.g. a city.

 koooaei wrote:
I hate that 8-th provides even less possibilities to mixing up different types of units. Not that 5-th, 6-th or 7-th were great at it but i could always take a trukk or two full of tankbustas or meganobz and not feel like a liability. Now it's completely unacceptable cause trukks are too expensive cause they're "tough" vehicles that die emidiately vs any anti-tank and manz eat the rest and go down 1-st turn. And we're back to spamming one unit type all over again. Boyz, boyz, boyz...occasional stormboyz that are boyz with jump packs and kommandoes that are boyz with infiltrate. Buff characters and maybe kustom mega kannons. Can throw out the rest of the index - won't feel the difference.

I'd say that's a specific Ork-problem right now. For CSM I can say we are in the situation that every unit is viable and you can basically play whatever units you like, even Mutilators can be brought to work or are at least cheap enough to be a distraction carnifex. This was unthinkable in 7th edition, even in casual play. Since in 8th actual tactics are involved and I as a player have decisions to make unlike in 7th. I can make even bad units have an impact. The shooting phase is still too one-sided, but at least with wound allocation I can influence it a bit.

 Blackie wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Isn't aos also a blob-hammer game?

I love that people are calling 40k Blobhammer because "blobs are op" and here I am considering taking a 3-model army to a 1500 point game tonight and the only reason I might not is it's too OP.

Blobs indeed.

Only 4-5 armies out of the 20+ possible ones can actually field blobs and hordes. Some of them can also play decently without taking countless cheap bodies. Only because the most competitive lists are hordes it doesn't mean that the game is dominated by them, IMHO all the units/characters should be considered.

blobs =/= hordes.

Girlyman and a bunch of assbacks parked around him in a tight circle bauble wrapped by guards/scouts/tacticals are a blob.
Yarrikk and a bunch of leman russes parked around him in a tight circle bauble wrapped by guards are a blob.
150+ boyz spread across the field and a bunch of buff indeps in the middle are a horde.

Blobs are basically a gunline that's not a line but a blob because of how buff auras work and how irelevant terrain is. Gunblobs.