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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 MagicJuggler wrote:
 Chamberlain wrote:
I'm really not sure how GW could design a rules system that gives us both what we want given that they are likely mutually exclusive. Modes of play seem to be the only way to do it. Maybe balkanization of the player base isn't a bad thing as long as everyone can be a bit more understanding about how different people want different things from their hobby.


I'm sure there are quite a few things most people can agree on.

Write unambiguous RAW. You don't need to be fluffy versus competitive or whatever other label in order to demand rules that are correct the first time around. If I am paying premium for a Guard codex, I don't want to subsequently have to print and glue an addendum stating that Ogryn Hyperloops are not a thing.

Get rid of IGOUGO and eliminate downtime between players getting to make real decisions. Rolling armor saves or choosing to use your one "save vs shooting" stratagem on your most critical unit != choices. Infinite Overwatch likewise isn't a choice.

Reduce First Turn Advantage. "Half your units must start on the table" is not a disadvantage for armies that can make their on-table half artillery and bubblewrap. Cover is decorative, and alternate deployment eliminates a major drawback to choosing to go first.

Eliminate extreme copypaste, move away from the "no model no rules policy" and enable more Your Dudes. Clean up internal balance between weapons so you don't need to tear up or counts-as your weapons depending on the edition you're playing. "Melta in 5th, Grav in 7th, Plasma in 8th."

Rather than "Rule of One," balance out powers in the first place. "Gee, do I take Eadbutt or Da Jump" is only a choice if your name is Robin Cruddace.

This itself shouldn't be rocket science.


Just some points:

"Write unambiguous RAW" is one of those 'easier said than done' things. My friends and I have argued about rule interpretations from Yahtzee, and there are people murdering each other about the interpretation of rules (ostensibly) given to us by God! If God can't write clear, unambiguous RAW, then I'm afraid you're asking a bit much from GW.

Getting rid of IGOUGO could work, but it has to be implemented properly. Chess has alternating activations and it's still like 54-46% imbalanced towards the person who goes first, which is better than 40k but still an undeniable advantage.

I agree with reducing first turn advantage. Have no idea why there's no 'default reserves' into which valuable units can be placed to protect them from first turn volleys but that only allows them to move on from the board edge.

I don't really know what you're on about with the weapons thing and "extreme copypaste." If you mean that editions shouldn't affect what weapons are good, meh, not sure I agree. Editions should adjust the meta, and that adjustment might include making you swap all your meltaguns for grenade launchers or whatever.

This is actually bad for fluff players, as you end up flanderizing psychic powers. With ~16 (?) psychic factions and ~6 powers per faction, you end up with needing 96 different psychic powers. Asking all of them to be exactly balanced with one another with 96 possible choices is probably asking too much. Now, if you mean balanced within a faction - sure, I could get behind that. But I'm not sure that would help anything, what with how armies could just bodge together factions.


Standardized terminology is one way to reduce ambiguity. In 7th, there was ambiguous RAW over whether Siphon Magic let you store dice between turns, because it didn't grant bonus Warp Charge (which disappear at the end of a Psychic Phase), but they generated extra tokens which could be spent as Warp Charge by the Psyker that gained them via Siphon Magic. 40k has no standardized rules for how to keep or discard Tokens from turn to turn, and further compounding the dilemma were abilities that generated actual additional Warp Charge that could only be used by specific models/units (via Spirit Leech or Yvraine's Gyrinx). Was the fact that Siphon Magic didn't generate extra Warp Charge but generated tokens that could be spent like Warp Charge intentional or just sloppy rule-writing? Similarly, the lack of distinction between death versus removal from play, when a model is considered alive, or whether "before deployment" is considered "before the battle" has led to my favorite YMDC, Shroëdinger's Ultramarine. (See the bottom).

Copypaste is related to this. In 5th edition, there was a debate over whether Njal could ride in a Rhino while wearing Runic Terminator Armor, because RAW, rather than Runic Terminator Armor counting as Terminator Armor with a 4++, Runic Terminator Armor copypasted all the rules for Terminator Armor except it granted a 4++ instead of a 5++. (By contrast, Calgar's Armor of Antilochus counted as Terminator Armor with a built-in Teleport Homer).

I mean internal balance. Whether it's "Take Nullzone instead of Smite, Telepathy instead of Pyromancy, Da Jump instead of Eadbutt you dumbdumb," in many cases the choice is fairly pointless.

PS: What is life anyway?
[Thumb - WhatIsLife.jpg]

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/08 03:09:50


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus




Well, the 12 pages that are the "main" rules are utter crap, so there's that.


If you don't like them, that's fine. Not everyone does. That's very different from bloat.

In addition, while the NUMBER of rules isn't something I necessarily hold issue with, the fact that every single one needs its own name I find excessive and detrimental to the game. It should be, for, say, Terminators:

Deep Strike (9")-Teleport Strike
[Insert actual rules text here]. [Insert fluff here.]

And then for the Culexus, Eversor, and Vindicare Assassins:

Deep Strike (9")-Infiltrate
[Insert actual rules text here]. [Insert fluff here.]

So that way everyone can share the same naming conventions.


None of this is bloat either. It actually makes the game easier to FAQ. This has been rehashed ad nauseum at this point, but they actually eliminated a lot of USRs. Did they change the names of some? Yes, but now the game is (theoretically) easier to balance. Without rehashing the last ten threads, if 10 units have an ability, and that ability is fine on 8 of them, but OP on the last two, they can now quickly and easily FAQ the specific keywords for those final two units and effect ONLY those two units. They have actually ELIMINATED bloat with this system. Under the old system, they would have modified the ability across the board while causing unintended consequences on the units that were fine before the FAQ. This would have lead to another, similar FAQ that, itself, would likely have needed an adendum. While I haven't agreed with every FAQ they've released, the new system does lead to an easier to "fix" game. Since the USRs are all now on the unit entries anyway, it's all right there in front of you, so I still understand the "bloat" argument. It's just not a criticism you level at this edition.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Part of me wishes that Chapter Tactics didn’t exist. Customization is great and all. But if you get a less than stellar tactic and stratagem, it is actually a penalty. At times I wonder if an undefined Sucessor Chapter would have been a better choice. It would have saved me a lot of money on not buying Chapter specific upgrade options.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Crimson wrote:
I like the lack of strict weapon LOS. I can glue the guns on my models however I like without accidentally modelling for advantage (or for disadvantage.) Furthermore, it reduces measuring and micromanaging. It's an abstraction, the tank is not actually immobile, it can turn or 'peek' around the corner and fire. Sure, it doesn't make perfect sense in every situation, but such is the case with all abstractions.


This is btw common misconception. 8th ed actually encourages MORE modelling for advantage. Want to maximize survivability? Glue everything as closed and tight as possible. Want to maximize your shootyness? Open up all cupolas, glue guns as wide as possible, even glue antenna if you want(gives you very notable effect boost. Without affecting how much foot print your tank takes you gain notable LOS boost as you have this tall spot from where to measure LOS). Sure you'll be seen more often but for some vehicles it's more important you can fire at will.

8th ed=modelling to advantage better than ever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 06:26:15


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





Measuring from an antenna? Is that really how things work in matched play land? Do tournament organizers actually allow and encourage this?
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Encourage? No. But it's usually permitted.
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Chamberlain wrote:
Measuring from an antenna? Is that really how things work in matched play land? Do tournament organizers actually allow and encourage this?


You measure from any part of model. Of course if tournament organizer creates it's own house rules then that's up to them but then we aren't talking about 8th ed but someone else's custom rulesets.

GW thinks it's too complex to measure from vehicles. End result is that for example this terrain I had on yesterday's HH game is 100% useless for vehicles. Even behind biggest building(flanked by russ and predator) no matter where predator would be deployed and regardless of where I looked sliver of red would be visible so predator would be shot at and shooting at full effect. No effect whatsoever. For LOS&cover everything on that board might just as well not exist. Now while it's about half of terrain I would like(though at least some of sparsiness are on edges where models werent' going to be in any case) so still parse one would expect SOME effect from this amount of terrain but ah well.
[Thumb - 20180107_135637.jpg]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/08 07:02:51


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






For the love of the Emperor base coat your board and terrain at least.

   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Amishprn86 wrote:
For the love of the Emperor base coat your board and terrain at least.


It's in process. You DO know things don't build and paint on their own? And that some people have this thing called "real life" that involves stuff like "work" and "relatives" that means you can't do painting 24/7 so it might mean that _shock horror_ you either don't play at all or have to accept stage of non-completion for a while.

Sure in dream land all is perfect and everything is painted to stunning level but for some people realities kick in. I have ~1 hour at most for hobby in a day and not rich enough to hire somebody to do the build&paint.

(not to mention I need to buy some stuff to even work and hobby budget for this month is spent)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/08 07:27:17


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






LOL wow you got very defensive didnt you. Calm down there man dont bust a blood vessel lol.

I didnt say spend large amounts of time or money on it, i said base coat... you know something that takes maybe 1 hour and 2$ to do.... not saying i know your situation, you are making it sound like its going to takes 100's of dollars and hours to put a coat of acrylic paint on them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 07:50:11


   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





tneva82 wrote:
 Chamberlain wrote:
Measuring from an antenna? Is that really how things work in matched play land? Do tournament organizers actually allow and encourage this?


You measure from any part of model. Of course if tournament organizer creates it's own house rules then that's up to them but then we aren't talking about 8th ed but someone else's custom rulesets.


More and more, I'm coming to believe that many warhammer players are the architects of their own misery.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Chamberlain wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Chamberlain wrote:
Measuring from an antenna? Is that really how things work in matched play land? Do tournament organizers actually allow and encourage this?


You measure from any part of model. Of course if tournament organizer creates it's own house rules then that's up to them but then we aren't talking about 8th ed but someone else's custom rulesets.


More and more, I'm coming to believe that many warhammer players are the architects of their own misery.

Totally. If you go out of your way to do everything in the least enjoyable way possible, you’re not going to have a fun game.
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Problem is that the rules are the rules and when the rules say you can measure from any part of the vehicle, putting restrictions on that is house ruling, which is a giant no-no to a lot of people.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






What I have learned from Dakk Dakka is a lot of people clearly use 40k as something other then a tool to kick back, roll dice and spend some time with friends.

A lot of people on here take this toy solider game super serious.

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Clousseau




Thats true but also been a thing since the internet first came online. Super serious wargaming has always been around, not just on Dakka!
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 AaronWilson wrote:
What I have learned from Dakk Dakka is a lot of people clearly use 40k as something other then a tool to kick back, roll dice and spend some time with friends.

A lot of people on here take this toy solider game super serious.

You will notice the ''super seriosity'' also when you attend or watch a tournament.
The hobby is quite expensive and if you want to make some milage out of it, you need to be serious to some extent.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






You don’t have to take something seriously to the point of *not actually enjoying it* in order to get something out of it, though. I spend money on little toy moon men in order to have fun. If I didn’t have fun, it wouldn’t feel worthwhile to me. Different strokes for different folks and all, but a lot of people seem to be involved in a hobby which just perpetually bums them out; I can’t see how that’s any good for your mental wellbeing, like.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am finding that yet again GW loves its SpessMehreens and doesn't give a feth about my Ork army. The astronomical difference in shooting and special rules aside the game was clearly not playtested for my Faction nearly as well as it was for Spess Mehreens. Do space Marines have a unit that is so ridiculously over priced that to even field it is almost like conceding the game to your opponent? Orkz have one.

The only units I have out that I play with in competitive games right now are: Boyz, Stormboyz, Kommandos, Weirdboy, Warboss, Big Mek. I sometimes take out my Painboy and Ghaz, Mek Gunz and even my Banner nob but that is about it.

I have shelved (As in will not be using until the codex comes out) Warbikes, Nob Bikers, Nobz, Deff Koptas, Deff Dreadz, Kanz, Morkanaut, Big Gunz, Trukkz, Battlewagonz, Lootas, Burnas, Flash Gitz, Meganobz, Tankbustas, Dakkajet, Burna Bommer, Blitz Bommer, and my non KMK Mek Gunz.

So overall I feel like GW rushed 8th edition out without properly playtesting most factions and while I realize they did this to speed the release because 7th was a dumpster fire, it doesn't change the fact that it was so unbalanced that a lot of local players either stopped playing until their codex came out or switched to their secondary armies of Space Marines because the Glory boyz definitely got tested and gifted a lot of buffs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 13:37:22


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah.

40k players for sure are hellbent on breaking the game and having as little fun as possible.

An example of this in video-gaming is Age of Empires II, where if there is a corner between a wall and a gate the game only registers it as solid in a few instances, rather than always like it is supposed to. So a builder can build through the corner of the walls, and if he builds a tower or something else with garrison ability (like a castle) he can garrison through the wall and disembark into the enemy base without ever having attacked him and alerting him that this is the case.

This could cripple the Arena ('everyone has walls') competitive play scene for AOE2 but it doesn't because people recognize it's stupid and generally don't do it.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






 wuestenfux wrote:
 AaronWilson wrote:
What I have learned from Dakk Dakka is a lot of people clearly use 40k as something other then a tool to kick back, roll dice and spend some time with friends.

A lot of people on here take this toy solider game super serious.

You will notice the ''super seriosity'' also when you attend or watch a tournament.
The hobby is quite expensive and if you want to make some milage out of it, you need to be serious to some extent.


Got to disagree with you here matey, but I'll throw some context in.

I run a local games club, we're up to about 200 active members on FB and around 15-20 per tuesday night (The night we meet) in total we probably have... 20-30 40k players most of them play regularly. None of them take it seriously, we all play armies because we like the story / look of them and are often happy to let cool things go in a game because it looks cool it makes a good story. Most players in the club have played 40k for 5+ years and we've all enjoyed every game as well as painting, building and sharing our progress with the armies.

As a flipside, I also play Guildball and I'm ranked 30th in the world. I'd go as far to say I take this game seriously. I've attended events in Spain & Germany and I'm from the U.K and it looks like I'll be playing for Team England at the Guildball & Warmahordes World Team Championship this year. Even then, at the of the day when the game is said and done it's just toy soldiers. I try damn hard in games, I play a lot and I practice hard but it won't change my life. I won't win any life points when my life ends and I won't lose any if I lost a million games.

I don't mind taking something seriously but I think a lot of people could do with taking a step back at looking at what really matters. The only thing different from when a game starts to finish is the time on the clock. 99.9% of games played just don't matter, you're not playing for a new hourse, for a million dollars /pounds or for a life changing event. The only thing that ultimately matters is the time spend inside that game, so just enjoy it.

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.


Can't be bothered with debating the semantics of one player wants to do and another play doesn't, that sounds like a amazing waste of time. Measure from whatever you and your opponent agree on and move on, it's plastic models shooting imaginary guns at each.

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.


Can't be bothered with debating the semantics of one player wants to do and another play doesn't, that sounds like a amazing waste of time. Measure from whatever you and your opponent agree on and move on, it's plastic models shooting imaginary guns at each.


(I was being sarcastic and poking fun at the super serious crowd).

Though depending on how the tank moved the turn before, etc, I actually don't mind the 'firing from aerials' thing as it also means I can fire back, and they may not even get a cover save. That's really all I ask for: be consistent. If your antenna can shoot me, I can shoot you. Since I can see a part of the model.
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.


Can't be bothered with debating the semantics of one player wants to do and another play doesn't, that sounds like a amazing waste of time. Measure from whatever you and your opponent agree on and move on, it's plastic models shooting imaginary guns at each.


(I was being sarcastic and poking fun at the super serious crowd).

Though depending on how the tank moved the turn before, etc, I actually don't mind the 'firing from aerials' thing as it also means I can fire back, and they may not even get a cover save. That's really all I ask for: be consistent. If your antenna can shoot me, I can shoot you. Since I can see a part of the model.


It's 8th, if you can fire from the front corner armor plating why not fire from the aerial? It's any point on the vehicle so go ahead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 14:25:34


A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.


Can't be bothered with debating the semantics of one player wants to do and another play doesn't, that sounds like a amazing waste of time. Measure from whatever you and your opponent agree on and move on, it's plastic models shooting imaginary guns at each.


(I was being sarcastic and poking fun at the super serious crowd).

Though depending on how the tank moved the turn before, etc, I actually don't mind the 'firing from aerials' thing as it also means I can fire back, and they may not even get a cover save. That's really all I ask for: be consistent. If your antenna can shoot me, I can shoot you. Since I can see a part of the model.


It's 8th, if you can fire from the front corner armor plating why not fire from the aerial? It's any point on the vehicle so go ahead.


Right, that was kind of my point. It's like a Riptide firing from it's tiny sensor-pod "head" or a guardsman shooting out of his knee. As long as there's not some kind of double-standard at work that prevents me from firing back, then it's not a problem.
   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





Blobhammer has been around since 2nd edition.

Cards have been around since 2nd edition (Surprise Assault anyone?). Psychic power cards.

Herohammer has been around since 2nd edition.

Multi-wound weapons is just a return to a 2nd edition mechanic.

AP is again, just a return to a 2nd edition mechanic.

The "new" vehicle rules is a return to first edition, minus the firing arcs, which were annoying anyways (opinion, not fact!).

Almost everything that's being complained about in this thread existed in some form in a previous edition.

It all cycles folks, we'll probably get stupid vehicle rules back next edition I'm sure.

Also, if you don't expect to go first, don't put everything on the table, judicious application and use of deep strike can dramatically reduce your vulnerability to alpha strikes.

The tools are available to mitigate the effects of virtually everything being complained about in this thread.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

I actually do have a problem with the "don't put everything on the table" argument, TPT, because (for some inconceivable reason) a unit has to have a rule allowing it to be in reserve before it can be placed in reserve.

This means that if your valuable unit is e.g. a Baneblade, you either have to bend over backwards to put it in reserve (your entire regiment is now Tallarn, and you have to spend 3CP, and it has to drive on sideways, and god help you if you brought a model with oversize sponsons like a Lucius pattern baneblade!) or you just don't get to and it can be alpha'd.
   
Made in de
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 AaronWilson wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah aaron but not measuring from radio aerials is a house rule, you know.


Can't be bothered with debating the semantics of one player wants to do and another play doesn't, that sounds like a amazing waste of time. Measure from whatever you and your opponent agree on and move on, it's plastic models shooting imaginary guns at each.


(I was being sarcastic and poking fun at the super serious crowd).

Though depending on how the tank moved the turn before, etc, I actually don't mind the 'firing from aerials' thing as it also means I can fire back, and they may not even get a cover save. That's really all I ask for: be consistent. If your antenna can shoot me, I can shoot you. Since I can see a part of the model.


It's 8th, if you can fire from the front corner armor plating why not fire from the aerial? It's any point on the vehicle so go ahead.


I thought that FAQ from the designers commentary meant that we are actually back to what counts as part of the model from older editions. But probably that's a case of houseruling being that reasonable that I forgot what the actual rulebook-ruling says.

Q: When a model does not have a base,
as is the case with many vehicles, what
exactly is the ‘hull’ of the model?
A: The hull of these models refers to
the main body of the model. It does not
include things such as turrets, sponsons,
aerials, banners, spikes etc. If there is still
doubt, we recommend both players agree
about what constitutes the hull of such
models before the battle begins.



   
Made in us
Morphing Obliterator





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I actually do have a problem with the "don't put everything on the table" argument, TPT, because (for some inconceivable reason) a unit has to have a rule allowing it to be in reserve before it can be placed in reserve.

This means that if your valuable unit is e.g. a Baneblade, you either have to bend over backwards to put it in reserve (your entire regiment is now Tallarn, and you have to spend 3CP, and it has to drive on sideways, and god help you if you brought a model with oversize sponsons like a Lucius pattern baneblade!) or you just don't get to and it can be alpha'd.


I would argue that if you're fielding a Baneblade, you can probably arrange the rest of your army in such a way as to get your drop count down to the point where you'd probably get the bonus to go first.

However, I understand where you're coming from, obviously your mileage may vary as they say.

Most Codex armies at least at this point have ways to put their most important units out of harm's way for the first turn if they're really concerned about it, otherwise, you're taking your chances. If I build an army that's going to make use of Super-Heavies I usually build to limit my drop count and give myself an advantage on the roll, if not, I build enough redundancy or deep strike potential into the list that not going first isn't going to ruin the game for me, yeah, I might lose, but proper use of deep strike can insure that even in a loss you still get to stomp around and enjoy a few glorious moments.

"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

^ there's that too, though that's even weirder because it prevents tanks from going hull down. Like, if the tank is dug in so that the turret is the only thing visible... then it can't see anything and can't fire at all.

GW pls! (in reference to the turrets not counting for line of sight)

As for TPT's comment - you missed my point. It's not that one cannot build a reserve army. It's that locking people into specific units or playstyles or builds is bad. And a +1 to the roll to go first is unhelpful; it's not even a 20% increase. You'll still go second in quite a few games.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/08 14:54:41


 
   
 
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