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 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are good now because they have functional transports.

Take away open topped and they're in the gakker.

One of the biggest problems with marines is a complete lack of functional transports.

Rhinos need their fire points back or a massive points reduction.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are good now because they have functional transports.

Take away open topped and they're in the gakker.

One of the biggest problems with marines is a complete lack of functional transports.

Rhinos need their fire points back or a massive points reduction.

What if we made Rhinos free and gave them ObSec?

meleti wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are good now because they have functional transports.

Take away open topped and they're in the gakker.

One of the biggest problems with marines is a complete lack of functional transports.

Rhinos need their fire points back or a massive points reduction.

What if we made Rhinos free and gave them ObSec?

Not sure why you went to an extreme after reading a very reasonable request.

My personal preference would be just a price decrease on rhinos. Or, make them T8.

 Marmatag wrote:

meleti wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are good now because they have functional transports.

Take away open topped and they're in the gakker.

One of the biggest problems with marines is a complete lack of functional transports.

Rhinos need their fire points back or a massive points reduction.

What if we made Rhinos free and gave them ObSec?

Not sure why you went to an extreme after reading a very reasonable request.

My personal preference would be just a price decrease on rhinos. Or, make them T8.

T8 makes them the same as a Land Raider. Admittedly, the Raider has 2+ armor, so is more durable.

But a Leman Russ should ALSO be more durable than a Rhino, and is the same T8 3+, just with a single extra wound. How would you recommend changing that then?

The Leman Russ never should have been T8. For balance purposes, I would drop them down to T7.

In 7th edition a land raider was 14/14/14, a Leman Russ was not. Yet they are equal in toughness in 8th edition.

Land Raiders could easily be T9, wouldn't suddenly make them viable anyway.

Just curious, why should the Leman Russ be T8 in the first place ? Always wondered what was the fluff reason for IG to have such sturdy regular battle tanks. Goes a bit against the "strength in numbers" or "frail but numerous" theme to me.

Marmatag wrote:The Leman Russ never should have been T8. For balance purposes, I would drop them down to T7.

In 7th edition a land raider was 14/14/14, a Leman Russ was not. Yet they are equal in toughness in 8th edition.

Land Raiders could easily be T9, wouldn't suddenly make them viable anyway.

So a formerly 14/12/10 should be less tough than than a formerly 11/11/10? That makes sense.

Aaranis wrote:Just curious, why should the Leman Russ be T8 in the first place ? Always wondered what was the fluff reason for IG to have such sturdy regular battle tanks. Goes a bit against the "strength in numbers" or "frail but numerous" theme to me.

It was the Front Armor 14, I'd imagine.

For me, I'd be perfectly fine giving reduced Toughness/a bonus to wound against the sides and rears of some vehicles.

For instance, the Leman Russ could be T8 from the front, T6 on the sides and rear, and give a +1 to-wound against the rear armor, since they're supposed to be pretty vulnerable in the rear.
I'd make Rhinos T7 front and T6 sides and rears, but no bonus to-wound.

I’m just joking around. Rhinos are mostly useless right now, and they could go down in points. I think the only real effect that would have is making berserkers more attractive, though.

What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

 Marmatag wrote:
Kabalite warriors are good now because they have functional transports.

Take away open topped and they're in the gakker.

One of the biggest problems with marines is a complete lack of functional transports.

That's one of those interesting cases where mathhammer takes a strange turn to the backburner. It isn't like their offensive output is terrible (though it isn't THE greatest), but what makes Kalabites excellent is the solid transports they can all hide in and fire from. Their transports are durable for the price, and consequently they become durable for the price.

In fact, anything that shoots and has access to an open topped Transport becomes many times more viable. I LOVED using Necron Warriors to shoot from a Ghost Ark, but that's no longer and option and I really do feel the usefulness of Warriors dropped immediately once that happened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

We were expecting better transport rules. As is, you can't move and disembark and you can't fire even a single weapon out of them.

Now it's fun to use the Damocles Command Rhino for that free Orbital Bombardment and then just use it for the purposes you described, but that's strictly fun.

The problem is that currently Rhinos have no purpose. They used to be a cheap (emphasis on this) mobile bunker that gave a squad protection and it's fire power came from what was in it. Now it's expensive, kinda slow and the squad inside is doing jack all, while the transport itself having little offensive output.

As a side note, no one took free rhinos when the Gladious was a thing. Your beef is with Razorbacks and Drop pods, so cut the hyperbole.

^Nonsense. I expanded my collection of Rhinos for Gladius because Grav out the top beat paying for Lascannons on Razorbacks.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Nonsense. I expanded my collection of Rhinos for Gladius because Grav out the top beat paying for Lascannons on Razorbacks.

Never really saw that in my area, though a grav cannon out the top would have been a good way to deny area to anything with an armor save. For the most part though it was drop pod city or assault cannon razorbacks.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Nonsense. I expanded my collection of Rhinos for Gladius because Grav out the top beat paying for Lascannons on Razorbacks.

Never really saw that in my area, though a grav cannon out the top would have been a good way to deny area to anything with an armor save. For the most part though it was drop pod city or assault cannon razorbacks.

My impression was that people complained more about the Razorback because they had higher cost so percieved as better value, while vs. Triple Riptides etc. Grav was way more effective with more shots, rerolls, better wound roll, and rhinos got you closer so you could start trapping stuff in CC. Imo Rhinos and pods, with only a few razors was the way to go, or at least a common trend among certain players.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What exactly are people expecting from Rhinos, exactly?

They protect your models, make them more maneuverable, give overwatch screening, block los, shield from charges, provide disruption charges, and can go toe to toe point for point with basic guardsmen in a shootout with an extra storm bolter.

I think for Rhinos you need something worth transporting.10 Berserkers can get gak done once they're out of a Rhino. 10 Tactical Marines won't, and I think we need a lot of points changes before Sternguard start being a good choice to shove in a Rhino and send them down the board.

Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

Bharring wrote:
They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

So wouldn't dropping the points of Tacs & Rhinos alongside bumping the cost of Sternies & Zerkers be the best solution?

-

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

So wouldn't dropping the points of Tacs & Rhinos alongside bumping the cost of Sternies & Zerkers be the best solution?

-

But then we'd have the situation where people wanting to play both units on foot for some reason would pay a premium because they MIGHT be spammed in Rhinos. See, the problem just moves somewhere else. There's just so much we can do with points.

Bharring wrote:
Tacs would be better if you could get them where you wanted, when you wanted.

Rhinos help you get Tacs where you want them, when you want them.

They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

Sternguard aren't that great. My current policy is that no marine unit outside DG is worth 20 points per wound, and sternguard are right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

Bharring wrote:
They're both too expensive for that now. And if you made Rhinos cheap enough to make Tacs better, they'd be too cheap to be fair transporting Sternies and Zerkers.

So wouldn't dropping the points of Tacs & Rhinos alongside bumping the cost of Sternies & Zerkers be the best solution?

-

No, sternguard are bad as it is. See my above policy.

My point is, if:
-X were fine now
-X + Rhino were fine now,
-Rhinos dropped in points to make Tacs+Rhinos fine

Then X + Rhino would be better than fine.

I don't actually think Sternies are op.

I think Rhino for 72 with two stormbolters is about right. I've used them mostly as empty shields, but here we are. The potential cargo is garbage. Fix the cargo and they are easily worth 72 in all cases.

It'll be interesting to see what the Pod points change does. While it certainly has more drawbacks than the last two editions, you can put Tacs with 2xSpecials 2xCombis where you want them without going crazy - and the points on it are going down.

I don't expect it to change much, and it has some big drawbacks, but I hope we'll start seeing a pod from time to time again.

The pod beats forewarned, too. Again, though, there's nothing worth cramming in the pod. The list I use when I want to win only has five actual marines in it: vets with stormbolters, and they're only there so I can bring a Deredeo. The rest are scouts and guardsmen. Because cheaper is better. Power armor is mostly a tax in 8th. Because nothing lives.

I just wish my Primaris could ride in a pod (at least the non-gravis ones.) It is the one vehicle I really miss from the minimarine arsenal. Drop pod assault is an iconic marine tactic, and the Primaris even use it in the fiction.

Black Templars should be terrifying combined with pods. But because marines suck at melee, they aren't.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Leman Russ never should have been T8. For balance purposes, I would drop them down to T7.

In 7th edition a land raider was 14/14/14, a Leman Russ was not. Yet they are equal in toughness in 8th edition.

So why should formerly AV14 heavy battle tanks, the heaviest non-superheavy tanks in the game (having frontal AV14 and side AV13 and special rules for being big and heavy) aside from Land Raiders, now have the same resiliency as formerly AV11 APC's?

Likewise, going back to older editions the Russ tanks had armor equal to or better than Land Raiders.

It's not like Russ tanks and their resiliency are a huge issue this edition. Nobody is complaining they are too hard to kill.

Land Raiders have issues, but inappropriately nerfing the Russ just for its own sake wont fix that.

Well, last tau guy I played didn't appreciate the nightshrouded psychic barrier Russ killing his infantry. The coldstars had already went after other targets. Cheap T8 is obnoxious. Cheap t8 with access to decent spells is even worse.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, last tau guy I played didn't appreciate the nightshrouded psychic barrier Russ killing his infantry. The coldstars had already went after other targets. Cheap T8 is obnoxious. Cheap t8 with access to decent spells is even worse.

That can affect a max of one Leman Russ at a time. Shoot the other Russes, and if there's only one left/one to start with... It's not THAT big a deal.

Russes are good, definitely, but outside of Pask and maybe Commander Tanks, they aren't borked.

The other Russes are still cheap T8. Killing them with HYMP is soulcrushing.

Commander tanks are a side grade to me. They are much more costly per wound, and so heavily offsets the T8.

Pask is nuts, yes.

Russes probably seem better to me than they are because my other choices are marine vehicles, which are just...

Still, I've won many games now by throwing cheap T8 out there.

Martel732 wrote:
Well, last tau guy I played didn't appreciate the nightshrouded psychic barrier Russ killing his infantry. The coldstars had already went after other targets. Cheap T8 is obnoxious. Cheap t8 with access to decent spells is even worse.

Sounds like your opponent didn't prioritize right then, or just ran into the physical reality that you cant kill everything in one turn by design. If all the Russ ended up doing is muppet mowing Fire Warriors, it probably wasn't the end of the world, it probably killed what, 35-40pts of Fire Warriors for the investment of two psychic powers and a heavy battle tank?