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 Type40 wrote:
You clearly just follow the rules written on open top... did the transport move,,, heavy weapons -1 to hit... not hard, that's simply what it says.

Citation please. Rules for heavy weapon is not a blanket "if moved, heavy weapons -1 to hit." It is generally accepted short hand.

Open topped ability does not grant you explicit permission to count the transport's movement as the passengers for the purpose of determining whether it moved or not. It simply tells you, whatever applies to the transport applies to the passengers, barring exceptions.

If we go so far as taking this into Special Snowflake route, the only restrictions and modifiers that affect the passengers are "the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn", "cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit", and whatever "so on" is in terms of game terms.

It's a lazily written rule that needs a lot of user intervention to work.

when they do so,any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers

Open topped rules.
so did the transport move ?
if so the transport gets the following restriction on heavy weapons.

If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase,you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

brb pg 180
Which as per the open topped rule, explicitly states, then applies to its passengers.
I.e. a special exception to a model off the battlefield being affected in anyway.

You are correct... it doesn't give you permission to count the transport's movement as the passengers. It applies its own restrictions/penalties on to the passengers. Just like it says.
But I am not sure why this is confusing to you... you just have to do what it says,,, no more, no less.

Other then what it is explicitly says to do to these off the battlefield models, they are not affected in anyway. The exception to "normally" is explicitly stated in the open topped rules... why are you finding this so complicated... did you really need me to cite open topped and heavy weapons, read them yourself before you start posting about them.

So if the restriction of:

If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase,you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn.

Also applies to it's passengers, how do you know if the passengers moved or not?

Rule working in a way you think it works doesn't make it RAW. In order for the rule to work the way you're explaining how it works (if it indeed works at all, that is) it require a lot of assumptions and inferences to do so.

"when they do so,any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers"

Seriously, read it.

Does it say that the heavy weapon rule applies to its passengers or does it say the RESTRICTIONS/MODIFIERS apply to its passengers ? ...
We do not care whether or not the passengers have moved... it does not mater. No where does it say that it matters. All that maters is whether or not the transport is receiving a restriction/modifier. Not WHY it is. If the transport does, the passengers have the same restriction/modifier...

Read the rule and do what it says... again not complicated.

It's the restriction as a whole that applies, not the result of resolving the restriction that applies as per wording the rule.

-A transport must follow all the rules & related restrictions & modifiers when it makes a ranged attack during the shooting phase.
-Units embarked on a open topped vehicle is not affected in any way due to embark rule, but may attack in the shooting phase, following all the rules that the transport must follow for making a ranged attack in the shooting phase.
-The heavy weapon rule states that if a model equipped with a heavy weapon has moved in the preceding movement phase, it subtracts 1 from hit rolls made for that weapon.

I believe we agree with the above. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The following is part where your input is altering the meaning of the above.
-If a transport moves, then subtract 1 from all the hit rolls made for any heavy weapon it is attacking with.
-Therefore, subtract 1 from all hit rolls made for any models embarked that is equipped with a heavy weapon that is making an attack.

Here you've made an assumption that the modifier, and the modifier only, applies to the passenger, without regards to the conditional clause that triggers the modifier to be applied. You've made a conscious choice to disregard the IF portion of the restriction when considering its effect on the passengers, and apply the modifier because the transport did something.

The passengers are subject to the restriction and modifier that "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase,you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn" which the transport is subject to, as per wording of the open topped rule. It's the restriction itself it (embarked unit) is liable for and not the just resolution of the said restriction (suffers -1 to hit).

The rule is a null argument. There aren't enough definitive clauses to make it work as is.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

No, the -1 to hit with a heavy while moving is not a house rule, its a rule from the Heavy Weapon type in the Core Rules. Have you EVER even read the rules?

Which would affect a unit which is not on the battlefield in any way. Have your EVER even read the rules ?

Actually, it states "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase, you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn."

So, if you want to be pedantic about it the penalty is on the weapon when it shoots, not the model in the unit. The embarked rule doesn't state the weapons are unaffected.

If you REALLY want to be pedantic it says "you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made WHEN FIRING THAT WEAPON this trun." that doesn't say its a modifier on the weapon. It says its a modifier applied "when firing that weapon."

But if we are spliting hairs on the subject.

 skchsan wrote:
It's the restriction as a whole that applies, not the result of resolving the restriction that applies as per wording the rule.

-A transport must follow all the rules & related restrictions & modifiers when it makes a ranged attack during the shooting phase.
-Units embarked on a open topped vehicle is not affected in any way due to embark rule, but may attack in the shooting phase, following all the rules that the transport must follow for making a ranged attack in the shooting phase.
-The heavy weapon rule states that if a model equipped with a heavy weapon has moved in the preceding movement phase, it subtracts 1 from hit rolls made for that weapon.

I believe we agree with the above. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The following is part where your input is altering the meaning of the above.
-If a transport moves, then subtract 1 from all the hit rolls made for any heavy weapon it is attacking with.
-Therefore, subtract 1 from all hit rolls made for any models embarked that is equipped with a heavy weapon that is making an attack.

Here you've made an assumption that the modifier, and the modifier only, applies to the passenger, without regards to the conditional clause that triggers the modifier to be applied. You've made a conscious choice to disregard the IF portion of the restriction when considering its effect on the passengers, and apply the modifier because the transport did something.

The passengers are subject to the restriction and modifier that "If a model with a Heavy weapon moved in its preceding Movement phase,you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn" which the transport is subject to, as per wording of the open topped rule. It's the restriction itself it (embarked unit) is liable for and not the just resolution of the said restriction (suffers -1 to hit).

The rule is a null argument. There aren't enough definitive clauses to make it work as is.

No the restriction itself is "you must subtract 1 from any hit rolls made when firing that weapon this turn." in regards to heavy weapons.
Again, why don't you just do what it says to do ? stop trying to find ways to make it say something else. It doesn't say apply the heavy weapon rule, this is not an assumption, this is literally what it says. Yes, I HAVE made a conscious choice to disregard the IF portion. Because the IF portion IS NOT the restriction. I have made the conscious choice to disregard it because IT TELLS ME TO. It says "apply restrictions and modifiers " it does not say "apply weapon rules as though the passengers made the same movement as the transport."

If I say "if you do not eat your dinner, you do not get desert." I am restricting you from desert. This isn't rocket science. Just do what the rule says. Apply the restriction. The models inside never moved. It doesn't say "apply movement to the model." by your logic there would be no restriction whatsoever if the the unit was already embarked and then the transport moved during the shooting phase. Because if the restriction includes the entire heavy weapon rule (which is not how syntax works but hypothetically) then as long as the unit stays embarked it will never trigger the "restriction."

That is not how it works. The restrictions/modifiers are applied... not the entire rule, that's A: not what it says and B: would not make sense in the context of the rest of the rules.

 Type40 wrote:
B: would not make sense in the context of the rest of the rules.

Yes, because the rule was not written properly.

Yes of course, "its not written properly" because you don't like what it actually says to do. lol.

If you just do what it actually says to do, it makes complete sense. Your bending it and saying it doesn't work , it is lacking information, and is written poorly because you can't get your head around the fact that you should just do what it is actually telling you to do lol.

We are done with this conversation. If you don't want to follow the rules so badly you have decided that the only way it could possibly say what it says is for it to be written wrong, that is on you XD.

 Type40 wrote:
Yes of course, "its not written properly" because you don't like what it actually says to do. lol.

If you just do what it actually says to do, it makes complete sense. Your bending it and saying it doesn't work , it is lacking information, and is written poorly because you can't get your head around the fact that you should just do what it is actually telling you to do lol.

We are done with this conversation. If you don't want to follow the rules so badly you have decided that the only way it could possibly say what it says is for it to be written wrong, that is on you XD.

So paraphrasing from earlier post.

If we say open topped actually does what you claim it does then:
-rolls of 1 on OC plasma can't never kill the firer.
-you can fire RF, pistol, grenade and heavy weapons if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.
-you can fire assault weapons after advancing without -1 to hit if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.
-you can fire heavy weapon after moving without -1 to hit if the transport embarked onto was stationary.
-you can fire after falling back and embarking on a transport.
-minus to hit is ignored so long as the ability is worded so that it affects the attacker, and the transport did not previously engage the target with the rule.

Being open topped is super good - even better than knights who pretty much ignore all the core rules. No wonder they're so rare.

 skchsan wrote:

 Type40 wrote:
Yes of course, "its not written properly" because you don't like what it actually says to do. lol.

If you just do what it actually says to do, it makes complete sense. Your bending it and saying it doesn't work , it is lacking information, and is written poorly because you can't get your head around the fact that you should just do what it is actually telling you to do lol.

We are done with this conversation. If you don't want to follow the rules so badly you have decided that the only way it could possibly say what it says is for it to be written wrong, that is on you XD.

So paraphrasing from earlier post.

If we say open topped actually does what you claim it does then:
-rolls of 1 on OC plasma can't never kill the firer.
-you can fire RF, pistol, grenade and heavy weapons if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.
-you can fire assault weapons after advancing without -1 to hit if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.
-you can fire heavy weapon after moving without -1 to hit if the transport embarked onto was stationary.
-you can fire after falling back and embarking on a transport.
-minus to hit is ignored so long as the ability is worded so that it affects the attacker, and the transport did not previously engage the rule.

-rolls of 1 on OC plasma can't never kill the firer.

Wrong that is an ability on the datasheet and it isn't being affected by something (i.e. like I explained, you are confused about what it means to have a model affected by something. Following its unchanged rules from its datasheet is not it being affected by something).

-you can fire RF, pistol, grenade and heavy weapons if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.

Correct

-you can fire assault weapons after advancing without -1 to hit if the unit advanced & embarked into a transport.

Correct

-you can fire heavy weapon after moving without -1 to hit if the transport embarked onto was stationary.

Correct

-you can fire after falling back and embarking on a transport.

Correct

As silly as all that is, that IS RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry you don't like how good Open-Topped vehicles are.
But it is what it is.
p.s. this also means you can not use stratagems or any other abilities on the units inside.

What about opponent's abilities that affect your units? Like the minus to hits?

Finally a counter to Alaitoc flyers! Open topped vehicles! Who knew.

Heavy weapon rules are part of the shooting phase.

As part of open topped you are given permission shoot.

If you have moved and embarked you get -1 to hit due to the shooting phase rules.

No where does it say to disregard these rules. You must follow them if you shoot.

This doesn't seem to be going anywhere new, by this point, so I think it's time to put it to bed.