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People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

You haven't been right. Move on.

Aren't they designed to squat?

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

Have there been any developments that have made this look less likely?

Because there have certainly been plenty that have made it seem more and more plausible than on day one.

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

You haven't been right. Move on.

While I certainly agree that old marines aren't getting squatted anytime soon, I don't think you can say those people are wrong.
By definition all things eventually end, so those people are 100% correct. Non-Primaris Marine kits will eventually stop being produced
Whether that's within the next few years, or when GW ceases to exist as a company, or when the Sun explodes and kills us all, is another matter

Realistically, I do think there will be a time in which old marines are not supported and Primaris Marines are the only Marines. I just don't think it will be in the near future. Probably by 10th edition though at the latest
I do however, this it is smart to start that transition now. Both for GW and for players.

-

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

Have there been any developments that have made this look less likely?

Because there have certainly been plenty that have made it seem more and more plausible than on day one.

Look at the supplements Marines got. There's relics in them that Primaris cannot take.
There's Stratagems specific to non-Primaris units.

Oh, and the fact that they haven't just dropped them period.

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

You haven't been right. Move on.

This quote will age so poorly that I might use it as my signature.

Okay, new complaint about Primaris: In the Good Old Days people would have snickered about a squatting SM joke. Fie on you all.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

Have there been any developments that have made this look less likely?

Because there have certainly been plenty that have made it seem more and more plausible than on day one.

Look at the supplements Marines got. There's relics in them that Primaris cannot take.
There's Stratagems specific to non-Primaris units.

Oh, and the fact that they haven't just dropped them period.

I believe normal marines got significantly more stratagems than Primaris, got 2 additional stratagems beyond the Vigilus ones. Hunter slayer missile for repulsors and gene wrought might. All other new ones are universal or old marine specific like Fury of the first

Finally accepting them now - I wouldn't dream of building an older vanilla marines army now... which is sort of sad

The scale with some characters is really weird but I genuinely like the stock intercessor models. Not a fan of the Primaris Dreads or those jumping autocannon fellows but the Phobos guys look killer

 Kanluwen wrote:
People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.

You haven't been right. Move on.

Oh dear, you appear to have fallen into an Egyptian river...

I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

'Death is nothing compared to vindication'.

Little did we know, Kurze was actually talking about the Space Marine fanbase.

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.

If and when Firstborn are edged out, bolter marines will become boltfrifle marines, plasma marines will become helblasters and flamer marines will become conflagrators. Etc

I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.

...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?

These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.

The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?

We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.

 =Angel= wrote:
If and when Firstborn are edged out, bolter marines will become boltfrifle marines, plasma marines will become helblasters and flamer marines will become conflagrators. Etc

Yep.

Late to the party...

I wasn’t keen on Primaris when I first heard about them; I had three companies of marine models already, and a new line didn’t make me happy.

I’ve now got a few squads and the vehicles, and they’re interesting to play, but I’m not planning to get rid of my old models anytime soon. Funnily enough, I wish GW would “just pull off the bandaid” and switch to Primaris only. Old marines could go to Legend play for those of us who have the old models, and I’d be okay with that (I’m not going to 9E when it comes along). It’s also annoying vehicles can’t be mixed by the two, but that silliness easy enough to ignore in home games.

I’m also a bit ruffled that Primaris have two wounds - I really think that is a bad precedent, and no army should have a base Troop unit that has two wounds. But that is a small enough concern it doesn’t stop me from using the models.

Also, not a fan of the Primaris background, but on the game board, that’s easy enough to ignore. And I have no desire to comb through iffy Black Library books to try and justify beyond what I’ve read in the BRB (and skim of Gathering Storm).

 Stormonu wrote:
Late to the party...

I wasn’t keen on Primaris when I first heard about them; I had three companies of marine models already, and a new line didn’t make me happy.

I’ve now got a few squads and the vehicles, and they’re interesting to play, but I’m not planning to get rid of my old models anytime soon. Funnily enough, I wish GW would “just pull off the bandaid” and switch to Primaris only. Old marines could go to Legend play for those of us who have the old models, and I’d be okay with that (I’m not going to 9E when it comes along). It’s also annoying vehicles can’t be mixed by the two, but that silliness easy enough to ignore in home games.

I’m also a bit ruffled that Primaris have two wounds - I really think that is a bad precedent, and no army should have a base Troop unit that has two wounds. But that is a small enough concern it doesn’t stop me from using the models.

Also, not a fan of the Primaris background, but on the game board, that’s easy enough to ignore. And I have no desire to comb through iffy Black Library books to try and justify beyond what I’ve read in the BRB (and skim of Gathering Storm).

I only have a Primaris only army, but I think the non-Primaris should be around for a while longer. The only reason I don't have a composite army is I don't have non-Dark Angels (Fallen actually) Firstborn and didn't want to buy even more stuff as well as I don't think the aesthetically (which is probably the most important element of 40k to me) they mix well on the tabletop. Besides, I like how a pure Firstborn and pure Primaris army function both the same and just different enough that your opponent has to adjust to either. It is kinda nice to have one codex that kinda covers two kinds of armies.

As for the number of wounds, I am surprised it took this long. I really like the idea of multi-wound infantry. I personally don't have an issue with tokens on the table (strange that visuals is the most important aspect with me). I think wounds/hit points is good feedback mechanic for something like this. It allow the opponent player to feel like they accomplished something without forcing a binary healthy/dead state. I personally never like the old vehicle damage method for that reason it was possible to lose a tank in a single shot or have it all game long with barely a scratch on it. With wounds I feel like I am at least chipping away at the thing. I would much rather have this instead of some Invul Save, FNP, etc. I just think that all marines should have two wounds as really feels like something they should all have. Primaris are tougher than Firstborn, but I don't think they are 2 wounds tough. They could have easily had something else instead to reflect that while making all marines feel more marine-y.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.

...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?

These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.

The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?

We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.

We also already have people baselessly mistrusting others in the Imperium. See? I can generalise too.

It could have made the Rift more meaningful, made things less like they're going super well for the Imperium in the scheme of things and have actual conflict between Guilliman and the existing power structure/paranoid loonies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.

...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?

These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.

The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?

We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.

I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?

Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".

If you want to make it Gulliman centric then frame it as how Bobby G is trying to fix the broken Imperium and lead humanity to a brighter future and yet his actions lead to the IoM to the brink of collapse (echoing how Big E's plans for humanity's future was ruined by people misunderstanding or not accepting his actions). For GW it's a way to create another faction using already existing sprues, create rules for renegade (non chaos) marines/guard/sisters/etc.

Bit weirded out by the imposition of no negativity in the OP 's thread title - kinda arrogant i have to say. Anyway, as to the question itself, i have no idea and don't really care. This whole thing is just an exercise in gaslighting from GW and primaris fanbois it seems to me, i certainly can say i won't buy them ever, they are not for me. And if they take over the space marine line that's cool, i just won't be spending my money on the hobby anymore. WOW classic is out so there's plenty of competition for my time and money.

And i've posted this elsewhere but for the purposes of this conversation i personally don't accept them because the models are fat and ugly and the lore is terrible - they are test tube babies. Horrible stuff, soulless and dry imo

Hecube wrote:
Bit weirded out by the imposition of no negativity in the OP 's thread title - kinda arrogant i have to say. Anyway, as to the question itself, i have no idea and don't really care. This whole thing is just an exercise in gaslighting from GW and primaris fanbois it seems to me, i certainly can say i won't buy them ever, they are not for me. And if they take over the space marine line that's cool, i just won't be spending my money on the hobby anymore. WOW classic is out so there's plenty of competition for my time and money.

And i've posted this elsewhere but for the purposes of this conversation i personally don't accept them because the models are fat and ugly and the lore is terrible - they are test tube babies. Horrible stuff, soulless and dry imo

I think your post illustrates quite well why the imposition was included. Even with it, you decided to thread gak when you could have very easily not posted anything at all.

I hope in the future you chose to be more considerate to others even if they are not considerate of you.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Sentineil wrote:
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.

It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.

Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.

...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?

These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.

Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.

I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.

The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?

We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.

I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?

Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".

If you want to make it Gulliman centric then frame it as how Bobby G is trying to fix the broken Imperium and lead humanity to a brighter future and yet his actions lead to the IoM to the brink of collapse (echoing how Big E's plans for humanity's future was ruined by people misunderstanding or not accepting his actions). For GW it's a way to create another faction using already existing sprues, create rules for renegade (non chaos) marines/guard/sisters/etc.

The Badab War was interesting because the civil war thing doesn't happen all the time, on top of the interesting Chapters present.

Indefinite civil war is boring, and honestly as bad as GW is sometimes with fluff writing, ideas like yours are honestly far worse.

I think that a lot of the initial negative reaction was to the fluff, but also to the fact that primaris marines represent on the table how Space Marine players always felt their army SHOULD play. Multiple wounds, more deadly bolters, more lethal versions of special weapons...you can find all of these in proposed rules from 7th ed on back. A lot of players (myself included) felt like the release of 8th was a huge missed opportunity for GW to re-write the marine statline to reflect the fluff, and with truescale conversions being all the rage to release new models for an old but flagship line.

I think the qualifier was added to the title because I don't think there has been any thread here on Dakka of more than a few posts that didn't have someone going negative to the point of being rude/inflammatory. I think for the most part other posters, the portion where the mods had to get involved not withstanding, have stated their opposing view respectably. I only made the above comment because that poster seemed to go out there way to include negative personal opinions and superficial background information that demonstrates they don't care to learn more on the subject nor budge from their initial impression. And that impression is so strong they must tell others it and that it appears to be the driving reason they are no longer interested in 40k.

With the exception of the Redemptor and Gravis armor I can't really see the Primaris as fat especial in comparison to Firstborn. If anything, I think the Primaris might be a little thin in the waist as the chest does have a rather extreme taper to it. I think what is called fat is more a rounded on the belly armor which is rather extreme on Gravis armor, however, the taper chest to waist is still there where if the marine was fat I would expect love handles. As for the test tube part, I mean isn't that exactly what the Primarch's are? Besides that, I don't know if I have ever read exactly how the initial Primaris were created. As far as I know, they could have undergone the same process that firstborn children did before being placed in status and given simulated training. Heck, at this point I doubt there are all that many of those marines left after the Indomitus Crusade.

I have no illusions that everyone interested in 40k are going to accept Primaris Marines. There will certainly be an element of fans that will always dislike them. We are talking about a setting in which I am sure you will still find people that don't accept the Tau which have been part of the setting longer than they haven't at this point. I do wonder how close Primaris are getting to Tau where one could post a topic on them here on Dakka and not have someone come in and drop their negative opinions and rather shallow knowledge of them with no further explanation. Are far as I can tell Hecube only was told the what the lore of Primaris are and only briefly glanced at a picture of them and decided since they aren't whatever drew him to 40k and are different than what he knows, he hates them. As opposed to Insectum7, who articulated his issues with Primaris. I don't agree with those issues, but I do understand why he hold them and how that affects his preference of them. I see one as negative and the other as opposing.

I don't and won't run any primaris for a couple of reasons.

I don't have the models and don't want to spend the money to buy them.

I don't really like the aesthetic, intercessors/hellblasters look okay, gravis armor looks abysmal IMO.

I don't like the 'tons o' guns' aesthetic/rules that redemptors/repulsors have.

I don't like the actual rules for Primaris marines. Mini marines are actually better in most situations IMO.

Seriously, folks, if you don't want to participate in the topic under discussion, then don't. Kindly refrain from derailing the thread arguing over the validity of the topic.



Edit - Apparently, I was unclear. For the record, a thread asking for people to post the positive things about a given aspect of the hobby is fine. Showing disagreement with something is fine. Posting in a thread just to tell people that they're talking about toy soldiers wrong is not. Derailing the thread in order to argue about whether or not the thread should exist is off-topic, and will be treated as spam. If you think a thread doesn't belong, hit the mod alert button and move on. DO NOT post in the thread just to gak in a topic that you disagree with.

Ok, positive, I like mostly the way they look though some units I don't like at all. I think the primaris chaplain is meh, he carries a pimp cane, for instance.

I will say however the idea no one will say anything bad about primaris is a lofty dream. As I'm sure if someone made an anti primaris thread and asked positive vibes to stay out, I somehow doubt they would. Though, to be frank disagreement in itself isn't toxic, I think somewhere along the line we missed that.

I think mostly speaking, people do accept anything put out for long enough. However some of GWs handling makes it hard to really embrace primaris as some might. The costs for the new kits is a touch over the top in a few ways. I feel like when I'm asked to pay like 75$. 85$ 100$ for a transport, it's gone too far. When I'm asked to pay that because my space marines are racist to primaris, it doesn't make me want to slap down that money as they are treating me like an idiot and really that makes me feel cross.

I mean, I'm supposed to believe a larger custodes can fit in a land raider but a primaris can't ? Or that they couldn't sqeeze even five into a rhino ? Ok, pretty cheap there GW coneheads.

If they didn't bork the roll out, stopped treating us like fools, and maybe stopped some other dumb choices. Like the names of units, which kinda sucks. I could see more people embracing them. As is they are divisive which why wouldn't they be ? It feels like one of the most long standing player bases could have their army squatted around them, then talked down to in the process.

If you're a new player, I could imagine you don't mind at all. If we're just talking the models, mostly speaking, that is great too. However the primaris beast is more than just that and little in life is just that easy.

I'll point out that is trying to be neither negative or toxic, simply voicing my view on it.