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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The back-blow against randomness in 6th/7th was to do with random psychic powers and warlord traits (and Daemon wargear); the point was the difficulty of actually building a list when you didn't know what you were actually taking.

I just loved not knowing if my Warlord was going to be good for what i used her for or not. I also had one guy that told me to just cheat and pick each game, since rolling so many things was just something he did not want to watch.
It also mean i could put it all in a list nice and neat to print out! That was painful.

If you want to, you can still roll for your trait *shrugs*

 Jidmah wrote:
If you want to, you can still roll for your trait *shrugs*

yup they very specificly say you can roll if you choose to, because there's always someone who likes that

Apple fox wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The back-blow against randomness in 6th/7th was to do with random psychic powers and warlord traits (and Daemon wargear); the point was the difficulty of actually building a list when you didn't know what you were actually taking.

I just loved not knowing if my Warlord was going to be good for what i used her for or not. I also had one guy that told me to just cheat and pick each game, since rolling so many things was just something he did not want to watch.
It also mean i could put it all in a list nice and neat to print out! That was painful.

That was one of the reasons I just took a named Character with a fixed Warlord Trait during those years. Hated that randomness.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, exactly, they remove a wound or 2. That's 2 less wounds your other weapons have to remove to kill the vehicle. Every bit of damage counts.
You're probably more likely to remove more wounds with small arms than with variable damage weapons anyway, due to sheer volume and how unreliable the D6 damage system is.

It is quite possible to get 20 ordered lasguns in rapid fire range. That is 80 shots, often re-rolling 1's. Statistically it does 46.7 hits, 7.8 wounds and 2.6 damage. That is enough to go through the rigmarole, but it means rolling almost 150 dice. That is a lot of game slow down for a few points of damage.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The back-blow against randomness in 6th/7th was to do with random psychic powers and warlord traits (and Daemon wargear); the point was the difficulty of actually building a list when you didn't know what you were actually taking.

I see where they were going with it, but it was annoying especially for armies with lots of Psykers when you had to spend 20 minutes to roll up and write down all the random stuff your army gets before the game even begins.

On the whole, I feel 'randomness' of 6th/7th edition was much overplayed: people forget all the randomness 5th edition had built in and which was removed or downtuned for 6th. For example, Night Fighting. But 6th/7th edition randomness was still off-putting, because it was a lot of dice rolls which were usually completely meaningless but on occasion might yield something really powerful (like Invisibility).

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, exactly, they remove a wound or 2. That's 2 less wounds your other weapons have to remove to kill the vehicle. Every bit of damage counts.
You're probably more likely to remove more wounds with small arms than with variable damage weapons anyway, due to sheer volume and how unreliable the D6 damage system is.

It is quite possible to get 20 ordered lasguns in rapid fire range. That is 80 shots, often re-rolling 1's. Statistically it does 46.7 hits, 7.8 wounds and 2.6 damage. That is enough to go through the rigmarole, but it means rolling almost 150 dice. That is a lot of game slow down for a few points of damage.

The chance of wounding on sixes is just as high as failing a 2+ armor save or trying to hit a plane with an ork unit. So it's not a toughness problem though, it's a general 40k problem of not having some shortcut to accumulate many models with low quality weapons. 30 goff boyz with warpath, banner and Thrakka nearby will pulverize any T7 vehicles, but it will take ages to do so without a dice app.