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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




Do people honestly think Orks are better than SM?

That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.

I think Orks tide lists have an edge in the meta -- the meta shifts at all to removing hordes, you'll see how fundamentally weak that list is.

Space marines are being tailored against and *still winning*.
   
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Vancouver, BC

tulun wrote:
Do people honestly think Orks are better than SM?

That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.

I think Orks tide lists have an edge in the meta -- the meta shifts at all to removing hordes, you'll see how fundamentally weak that list is.

Space marines are being tailored against and *still winning*.

When the meta skews anti-horde I expect to see Ork buggies and fliers show up.
   
Made in us
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
The argument that Orkz are durable isn't really true though is it? I brought up the bolter comparison because Mr. Raptor made the statement that a unit of 30 boyz with a KFF and a painboy were durable. For the same points you could almost take 20 Intercessors, who have better weapons, armor and buffs. Even in the current meta, its a lot harder to shift 20 Intercessors off an objective than it is 30 boyz backed by a KFF and a painboy. So 20 intercessors can accomplish the same job while also inflicting significantly more damage at range.

Only if by accomplish more you mean kill more and lose fewer models to incoming fire. The Boyz do more by denying you the chance to get within scoring range of an objective and by pinning you into your own deployment zone as they leap forward up the field, then they rip you up with S5 attacks while dying too slowly for you to win. That's durable and useful in my books.

Why is the only comparison you're making Bolters? Why not look at the durability against overcharged plasma, melta, or other weapons that are seeing more use on the battlefield? Durability doesn't exist in a vacuum and what is actually durable on the table, as opposed to being durable against a hypothetical scenario that isn't actually happening, will always change based on the meta.

Also, why are you including the points for buffs when talking Orks but not when talking about your 20 intercessors? Shouldn't we be looking at a Chapter Master and like a handful of Intercessors if we're comparing apples to apples?



...Are you just not picking up what I am pointing out? I literally pointed out that armies ARE NOT TAKING bolters or anti-horde weapons which is why Orkz are doing good in the tournament scene. I even mentioned that boyz are significantly more durable point for point to Plasma/melta than Marines because a bolter is almost as dangerous to an ork as a melta gun is.

As to why I am not using buff characters for the SM? Because I am no the one who mentioned the buff characters and I showed the bolter shots to show that a standard Tac Marine unit is significantly cheaper and MORE durable vs small arms fire than those Ork boyz with durability buffing characters (KFF/Painboy).

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Noctis Labyrinthus

The latest Ork top finish won out over a Space Marine and Sisters list that had plenty of horde mulching. Intercessors, infiltrators, invader atvs (they had meltas but they can just split fire), outriders, dark talons, and land speeder storms all have plenty of anti-infantry shooting.

The Sisters list had like twelve fething Mortifiers with flails which are built to mulch hordes and had plenty of anti-infantry shooting elsewhere. Even the Exorcists can at least do okay against Boys since they get some efficiency from blast.

But you want to know what makes Boys stand out from most other horde units?

They're T4. Suddenly most of that anti-infantry shooting that wounds hordes on 3s is now wounding them on 4s, and Mortifiers, which would be wounding gaunts on 2s are wounding them on 3s.

That this unit also has access to fairly trivial to use durability-buffing via KFF or a Painboy makes for one of the hardest to shift horde units in the game.

And it's not like the Ork list had nothing heavier shooting could find use on. Meganobz made up almost a fifth of that list's points, and it also had three Mek Gunz and Ghazghkuul as well that anti-tank shooting could target. So over eight hundred points of that army consisted of high saving throw multi-wound models. By comparison, Boys consisted of 742 points. Add Gretchen and you get 792. Add the Kommandos and you get 852 points consisting of one wound infantry. Is that really "skewing heavily into infantry"?

I don't even disagree with the assertion that Marines are better than Orks, I think they are, but there is nothing lamer than someone playing a strong army complaining about that army's strength.
   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




tulun wrote:
Do people honestly think Orks are better than SM?

That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.

I think Orks tide lists have an edge in the meta -- the meta shifts at all to removing hordes, you'll see how fundamentally weak that list is.

Space marines are being tailored against and *still winning*.


Space marines are being tailored against by space marines and often winning.

If people stacked aggressors etc instead of eradicators, suddenly knights have the edge back, that's how a meta works.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







tulun wrote:
That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.


When it comes to self-proclaimed experts in this game, I draw your attention to the definition of "expert".

To whit - an ex- is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

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 Canadian 5th wrote:
tulun wrote:
Do people honestly think Orks are better than SM?

That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.

I think Orks tide lists have an edge in the meta -- the meta shifts at all to removing hordes, you'll see how fundamentally weak that list is.

Space marines are being tailored against and *still winning*.

When the meta skews anti-horde I expect to see Ork buggies and fliers show up.


This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)
   
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Also when was the last time a unit's durability was accurately defined by how many shots of unbuffed bolter it can take ? Bolters are one of the biggest threats in the range of weapons Ork boyz fear, (very high volume that wounds on 4s and doesn't overkill) the biggest probably being the necron tesla. Marines just laugh at them, how is this new ?

Orks are not a top dog army at the moment but they are at least decent on their own. Right now they do well in tournaments because some of the strengths of their army are good in the current meta, along with some opportunist skewing.

Regarding SM themselves. I don't think they are that oppressive in tournaments. They're still placing really well and they probably have a lot of mirror matchups. But despite certain extremely strong abilities and units, they don't seem to be the biggest threat 40k has ever faced on its table.

Their biggest issues to me are that they have by far the largest player base. Which makes their strength much more omnipresent than when eldars, necrons or Taus were dominating.

And also their army has many strength but doesn't have a lot of weaknesses. You can field most units in the codex and still do fine, and lots of their units are multitask (without the appropriate costing). While this is not so much of a problem in high end play, I feel this is much more of a problem in casual/pick up games. Outside of the many many many mirror match ups i've seen, the SM players with their freshly opened half indomitus box along with a few more units to complete their army are completely crushing most other armies.

Edit: Sorry if that is a bit out of place

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 12:01:31


 
   
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Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


And why is that ? Is there a specific reason or is it just human's madness at play ? Maybe if you guys tried to think about the core of the problem, idk...
I just arrived and I already identified several posters who are either marine-haters who think people who play them should be burnt on a cross, or hardcore marine-fanboys who will die before admitting they are even above average. What it leads to is very poor discussion.
Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?
   
Made in gb
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 Mr Raptor wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


And why is that ? Is there a specific reason or is it just human's madness at play ? Maybe if you guys tried to think about the core of the problem, idk...
I just arrived and I already identified several posters who are either marine-haters who think people who play them should be burnt on a cross, or hardcore marine-fanboys who will die before admitting they are even above average. What it leads to is very poor discussion.
Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?


Because people overly identify with their faction, if their faction is then represented losing to marines or getting less attention to marines, they then lose rational comprehension as to why this might be and becomes a personal slight. Given marines get a lot of attention whilst being simultaneously only 1 faction, there are more people to be upset about them than the other way round.

As I said it's then self sustaining, xenos A player complains marines get something, marine player then is just excited about it, xenos B player then gets annoyed at not having anything to be excited about for the 2nd year running, same marine player simply tried to explain they're excited, chaos player A wades in and starts throwing sympathiser/shill/white knight comments in, then we end up where we are today.
   
Made in pl
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But marines aren't one faction. Saying that someone who plays ultramarines is the same as a SW player is like saying that an eldar and dark eldar play the same faction.

When was the last time a DeathWing player got something from GW? Maybe the librarian a few months ago, but that one was limited to GW stores. Before that it was probably years since they got a new model. My dudes last model came out before 8th ed, making my faction the only one besides tyranids that got no new models in 8th ed. I doubt a tyranid player would be happy to hear that GSC are somehow counted among stuff he supposably got.

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 Mr Raptor wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


And why is that ? Is there a specific reason or is it just human's madness at play ? Maybe if you guys tried to think about the core of the problem, idk...
I just arrived and I already identified several posters who are either marine-haters who think people who play them should be burnt on a cross, or hardcore marine-fanboys who will die before admitting they are even above average. What it leads to is very poor discussion.
Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?


Don't ask for reasons on this board, you will not get them, because there aren't.

Don't even try with hard numbers on here, because they will be ignored.

I mean, right now marines have a lower than 50% win rate and we still have these discussions. Sure, many lists tailor against them because they are EVERYWHERE,and this brings down their W/L ratio, but the same happened during IH era and they still had an embarassingly high win rate. This board cristallized its opinions an year ago and still refuses to admit that something may have changed in the mean time.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






I wonder what would happen regarding Nobs if they made them cheaper, restricted their special weapons, and allowed them in squads up to 20 models?

They would be elites still, but elite at what orks do well - big mobs of things that want to hit you hard. I'd certainly try a unit of 20 ork nobs with 50% of them wielding klaws & saws. Technically you can do it already, with mob up, but now you could feasibly use mob up to get 30 nobs hitting the enemy.

They could also have the same rule as boys, but for over 10 models they gain an attack. There is zero reason, fluffwise, why nobs wouldn't form big mobs.

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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Dysartes wrote:
tulun wrote:
That seems to be the hottest of takes and completely against any sort of expert opinion I've seen.


When it comes to self-proclaimed experts in this game, I draw your attention to the definition of "expert".

To whit - an ex- is a has-been, and a spurt is a drip under pressure.


If you look at what people like the Art of War people (Several winners of LVO), Titans, Tabletop Tactics (and so on) -- most place Orks as a C tier army.

If you think your opinion is worth more than their's, you're wrong. Or start placing at majors with Orks.

I will say this -- Orks in this Gravis / SM heavy meta are punching above their weight class. I don't think fundamentally as a codex we are anywhere near the strength of some of the top dogs -- Harlequins, Sisters, Ad mech, SM (and the various flavours). That's why a gaunt carpet can take second at an Aussie major, because 200 gaunts can be a real headache to deal with if you take nothing but plasma guns / lascannons.

Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


Right, but in the current state of the game, SM *do* dodge good kill secondaries. Hopefully they do address this as it is one of the reasons (obviously) they get extra efficiency, as they often start well ahead in points simply because your opponent has to take a bad or difficult secondary. But this is the current state of the game.

I think you'd need to quantify "as powerful as everyone says" with hard data. Like, what's the cutoff here? Because like I said, if the assertion is Orks are better than SM, this is crazy. SM just have way stronger builds, way more efficient units, and can probably come up (between the various supplements) possibly half a dozen or more top table lists. Orks have maybe two, and the green tide seems to be the only one really doing well right now.
If you think they are closer in power, well that's interesting. But I think SM can hold up to having people tailoring against them and hanging -- Green tide or buggy lists will fall apart on these situation because:

a) Our units are often good, but not hyper efficient in output or points cost.

b) We don't have strong defensive stratagems (ex: Gravis +1 save strat, trans human). Orks strength is redundancy, but our units are not cheap enough (compare a Megatrakk to an ATV in point cost) to really overwhelm an army leaning into killing us.

c) We often give up secondaries like candy.

I think both lists are glaringly weak, because they really can't take a punch -- but if the opponent can't really deal that punch in the first place (IE: I don't have enough bolters to kill 120 boys), a skilled player can do well because it's either a boatload of obsec bodies or a fast paced army that has a good amount of shooting / CC (8 mega trakks slaps hard).

I will say I look forward to our codex update. I think Orks, with a few power boosts here and there, might easily ascend the ranks to an A tier army.
   
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 Void__Dragon wrote:
The latest Ork top finish won out over a Space Marine and Sisters list that had plenty of horde mulching. Intercessors, infiltrators, invader atvs (they had meltas but they can just split fire), outriders, dark talons, and land speeder storms all have plenty of anti-infantry shooting.

The Sisters list had like twelve fething Mortifiers with flails which are built to mulch hordes and had plenty of anti-infantry shooting elsewhere. Even the Exorcists can at least do okay against Boys since they get some efficiency from blast.

But you want to know what makes Boys stand out from most other horde units?

They're T4. Suddenly most of that anti-infantry shooting that wounds hordes on 3s is now wounding them on 4s, and Mortifiers, which would be wounding gaunts on 2s are wounding them on 3s.

That this unit also has access to fairly trivial to use durability-buffing via KFF or a Painboy makes for one of the hardest to shift horde units in the game.

And it's not like the Ork list had nothing heavier shooting could find use on. Meganobz made up almost a fifth of that list's points, and it also had three Mek Gunz and Ghazghkuul as well that anti-tank shooting could target. So over eight hundred points of that army consisted of high saving throw multi-wound models. By comparison, Boys consisted of 742 points. Add Gretchen and you get 792. Add the Kommandos and you get 852 points consisting of one wound infantry. Is that really "skewing heavily into infantry"?

I don't even disagree with the assertion that Marines are better than Orks, I think they are, but there is nothing lamer than someone playing a strong army complaining about that army's strength.


Couple of things. First, here is the breakdown of the Ork winner's opponents I did in the ork tactics thread. Ironically I pointed out what you just did, specifically that the Nuns with Gunz list was the closest the ork came to losing, and that is almost exclusively thanks to the mortifiers. But those Mortifiers were basically the only anti-infantry he brought. Exorcists get 6 shots for 4 hits and likely closer to 3 wounds. That isn't horde clearing. and while we are on the subject, LS Storms while fairly points efficient ,aren't anti-horde. 6 bolter shots (Cerberus launcher) and a Heavy bolter doesn't accomplish much. And the list that those were brought in had more anti-elite than anything, including 500pts of plasma inceptors and a bunch of Blade Guard. The ATV's also aren't good at Horde clearing when you give them Multi-meltas, 6 bolt shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds. Not exactly anything to write home about, especially not on an 85pt model.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2130/790345.page#10981864

Next, I am not "complaining about that army's strength". The point of this thread was what treatment GW was going to give nobz, and it got derailed by talking about boyz. As far as I am concerned orkz are in a good place right now, but that isn't because the army is inherently stronger than others in 9th but because the meta has shifted which brings out one of the favorite playstyles. As far as the ork player goes, he had 742pts of boyz, 110pts of Kommandos and 50pts of grotz. so just over 900pts of single wound infantry, he also had 3 HQ and 1 elite that were character protected (Weirdboy, Warboss, Big Mek, and painboy. 298pts). Based on the Weirdboy I would guess he either started the meganobz in reserve, teleporta striked, or hidden from view so he could da jump them. Nobody would foot slog meganobz. He also brough 3 Mek gunz in separate units for 120pts total. He brought 2 units of Meganobz for 380pts and finally he brought Ghaz for 300pts.

So the most the ork player had on the table at the start of the game of targetable multi-wound models was 3 mek gunz (120pts) and Ghaz (300pts) and since ghaz can only take 4dmg a phase he isn't a great target. I'm assuming the meganobz were either out of LOS or were most likely held in reserve to teleporta strike somewhere. But, even if they were on the table and in LOS (highly doubtful) thats only 780pts out of the list, and 300pts of that list can only lose 1/3rd of its wounds to shooting a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


Literally nobody in this thread has bashed or attacked Marine units, players, playstyles etc. Jidmah is pointing out that list tailoring is going on based on fighting the most common competitive list in the game right now, which is SM's featuring mutli-wound infantry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 17:30:08


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 Mr Raptor wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


And why is that ? Is there a specific reason or is it just human's madness at play ? Maybe if you guys tried to think about the core of the problem, idk...
I just arrived and I already identified several posters who are either marine-haters who think people who play them should be burnt on a cross, or hardcore marine-fanboys who will die before admitting they are even above average. What it leads to is very poor discussion.
Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?

Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.

In the case of orks. The army has generally always been good. Nobs have a much better history than terminators do for example. Right now the basic nob doesn't really have a place - though the mega nob does. Probably because their roll would be exactly the same as boys anyways. Should nobs just become troops and become the "primaris type ork" IDK...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 17:49:42


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
The latest Ork top finish won out over a Space Marine and Sisters list that had plenty of horde mulching. Intercessors, infiltrators, invader atvs (they had meltas but they can just split fire), outriders, dark talons, and land speeder storms all have plenty of anti-infantry shooting.

The Sisters list had like twelve fething Mortifiers with flails which are built to mulch hordes and had plenty of anti-infantry shooting elsewhere. Even the Exorcists can at least do okay against Boys since they get some efficiency from blast.

But you want to know what makes Boys stand out from most other horde units?

They're T4. Suddenly most of that anti-infantry shooting that wounds hordes on 3s is now wounding them on 4s, and Mortifiers, which would be wounding gaunts on 2s are wounding them on 3s.

That this unit also has access to fairly trivial to use durability-buffing via KFF or a Painboy makes for one of the hardest to shift horde units in the game.

And it's not like the Ork list had nothing heavier shooting could find use on. Meganobz made up almost a fifth of that list's points, and it also had three Mek Gunz and Ghazghkuul as well that anti-tank shooting could target. So over eight hundred points of that army consisted of high saving throw multi-wound models. By comparison, Boys consisted of 742 points. Add Gretchen and you get 792. Add the Kommandos and you get 852 points consisting of one wound infantry. Is that really "skewing heavily into infantry"?

I don't even disagree with the assertion that Marines are better than Orks, I think they are, but there is nothing lamer than someone playing a strong army complaining about that army's strength.


Couple of things. First, here is the breakdown of the Ork winner's opponents I did in the ork tactics thread. Ironically I pointed out what you just did, specifically that the Nuns with Gunz list was the closest the ork came to losing, and that is almost exclusively thanks to the mortifiers. But those Mortifiers were basically the only anti-infantry he brought. Exorcists get 6 shots for 4 hits and likely closer to 3 wounds. That isn't horde clearing. and while we are on the subject, LS Storms while fairly points efficient ,aren't anti-horde. 6 bolter shots (Cerberus launcher) and a Heavy bolter doesn't accomplish much. And the list that those were brought in had more anti-elite than anything, including 500pts of plasma inceptors and a bunch of Blade Guard. The ATV's also aren't good at Horde clearing when you give them Multi-meltas, 6 bolt shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds. Not exactly anything to write home about, especially not on an 85pt model.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2130/790345.page#10981864

Next, I am not "complaining about that army's strength". The point of this thread was what treatment GW was going to give nobz, and it got derailed by talking about boyz. As far as I am concerned orkz are in a good place right now, but that isn't because the army is inherently stronger than others in 9th but because the meta has shifted which brings out one of the favorite playstyles. As far as the ork player goes, he had 742pts of boyz, 110pts of Kommandos and 50pts of grotz. so just over 900pts of single wound infantry, he also had 3 HQ and 1 elite that were character protected (Weirdboy, Warboss, Big Mek, and painboy. 298pts). Based on the Weirdboy I would guess he either started the meganobz in reserve, teleporta striked, or hidden from view so he could da jump them. Nobody would foot slog meganobz. He also brough 3 Mek gunz in separate units for 120pts total. He brought 2 units of Meganobz for 380pts and finally he brought Ghaz for 300pts.

So the most the ork player had on the table at the start of the game of targetable multi-wound models was 3 mek gunz (120pts) and Ghaz (300pts) and since ghaz can only take 4dmg a phase he isn't a great target. I'm assuming the meganobz were either out of LOS or were most likely held in reserve to teleporta strike somewhere. But, even if they were on the table and in LOS (highly doubtful) thats only 780pts out of the list, and 300pts of that list can only lose 1/3rd of its wounds to shooting a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


Literally nobody in this thread has bashed or attacked Marine units, players, playstyles etc. Jidmah is pointing out that list tailoring is going on based on fighting the most common competitive list in the game right now, which is SM's featuring mutli-wound infantry.


I wasn't responding directly to Jidmah, I was answering Tyel why the community; not this thread admittedly, has a lot of marine complaint posts.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Spoiler:
 Void__Dragon wrote:
The latest Ork top finish won out over a Space Marine and Sisters list that had plenty of horde mulching. Intercessors, infiltrators, invader atvs (they had meltas but they can just split fire), outriders, dark talons, and land speeder storms all have plenty of anti-infantry shooting.

The Sisters list had like twelve fething Mortifiers with flails which are built to mulch hordes and had plenty of anti-infantry shooting elsewhere. Even the Exorcists can at least do okay against Boys since they get some efficiency from blast.

But you want to know what makes Boys stand out from most other horde units?

They're T4. Suddenly most of that anti-infantry shooting that wounds hordes on 3s is now wounding them on 4s, and Mortifiers, which would be wounding gaunts on 2s are wounding them on 3s.

That this unit also has access to fairly trivial to use durability-buffing via KFF or a Painboy makes for one of the hardest to shift horde units in the game.

And it's not like the Ork list had nothing heavier shooting could find use on. Meganobz made up almost a fifth of that list's points, and it also had three Mek Gunz and Ghazghkuul as well that anti-tank shooting could target. So over eight hundred points of that army consisted of high saving throw multi-wound models. By comparison, Boys consisted of 742 points. Add Gretchen and you get 792. Add the Kommandos and you get 852 points consisting of one wound infantry. Is that really "skewing heavily into infantry"?

I don't even disagree with the assertion that Marines are better than Orks, I think they are, but there is nothing lamer than someone playing a strong army complaining about that army's strength.


Couple of things. First, here is the breakdown of the Ork winner's opponents I did in the ork tactics thread. Ironically I pointed out what you just did, specifically that the Nuns with Gunz list was the closest the ork came to losing, and that is almost exclusively thanks to the mortifiers. But those Mortifiers were basically the only anti-infantry he brought. Exorcists get 6 shots for 4 hits and likely closer to 3 wounds. That isn't horde clearing. and while we are on the subject, LS Storms while fairly points efficient ,aren't anti-horde. 6 bolter shots (Cerberus launcher) and a Heavy bolter doesn't accomplish much. And the list that those were brought in had more anti-elite than anything, including 500pts of plasma inceptors and a bunch of Blade Guard. The ATV's also aren't good at Horde clearing when you give them Multi-meltas, 6 bolt shots, 4 hits, 2 wounds. Not exactly anything to write home about, especially not on an 85pt model.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2130/790345.page#10981864

Next, I am not "complaining about that army's strength". The point of this thread was what treatment GW was going to give nobz, and it got derailed by talking about boyz. As far as I am concerned orkz are in a good place right now, but that isn't because the army is inherently stronger than others in 9th but because the meta has shifted which brings out one of the favorite playstyles. As far as the ork player goes, he had 742pts of boyz, 110pts of Kommandos and 50pts of grotz. so just over 900pts of single wound infantry, he also had 3 HQ and 1 elite that were character protected (Weirdboy, Warboss, Big Mek, and painboy. 298pts). Based on the Weirdboy I would guess he either started the meganobz in reserve, teleporta striked, or hidden from view so he could da jump them. Nobody would foot slog meganobz. He also brough 3 Mek gunz in separate units for 120pts total. He brought 2 units of Meganobz for 380pts and finally he brought Ghaz for 300pts.

So the most the ork player had on the table at the start of the game of targetable multi-wound models was 3 mek gunz (120pts) and Ghaz (300pts) and since ghaz can only take 4dmg a phase he isn't a great target. I'm assuming the meganobz were either out of LOS or were most likely held in reserve to teleporta strike somewhere. But, even if they were on the table and in LOS (highly doubtful) thats only 780pts out of the list, and 300pts of that list can only lose 1/3rd of its wounds to shooting a turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


Literally nobody in this thread has bashed or attacked Marine units, players, playstyles etc. Jidmah is pointing out that list tailoring is going on based on fighting the most common competitive list in the game right now, which is SM's featuring mutli-wound infantry.


I wasn't responding directly to Jidmah, I was answering Tyel why the community; not this thread admittedly, has a lot of marine complaint posts.


Fair enough

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?
Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.


Nope! You're wrong, you just aren't satisfied unless you have an unfair advantage with your marines over your opponent. This seems to be true of a lot of the most strident Astartes supporters both here and irl - they bought Astartes because they wanted to have an unfair advantage, since they're portrayed as the "best" army in fluff, and aren't satisfied if they don't get it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 19:28:59


 
   
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Hecaton wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?
Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.


Nope! You're wrong, you just aren't satisfied unless you have an unfair advantage with your marines over your opponent. This seems to be true of a lot of the most strident Astartes supporters both here and irl - they bought Astartes because they wanted to have an unfair advantage, since they're portrayed as the "best" army in fluff, and aren't satisfied if they don't get it.
I play about half of the armies. I am seeking no advantage in army choice. Marines are often on the lower end of power out of my army choices. Sure some power gamers went out and bought 3 repuslors executioners to spam in Ironhands supplement in the 8th eddition and flew them on top of 16 inch spires so they literally cant lose the game. Those players exists in every edition regardless of army. The same as all the Eldar armies a year earlier were just spamming as many eldar flyers as they could alitoc with protect fortune shinning spears wiping your army. The game could really use rules writters that understand they need to write rules with those players in mind.

I'm old enough to remember though when the same thing was being done with ork nobs to make an nearly indestructible kill unit of nobs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 19:45:18


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Mr Raptor wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
This. I also expect GW to address the lack of an anti-elite secondary soon, otherwise gak will totally hit the fan when DG and CSM go to two wound infantry as well.

There are a few extremely powerful things in Codex: Space Marines (eradicators, ATV, master apothecaries) which need to be addressed, but if the codex in general would be as powerful as everyone says, their winrate would be much higher, and we would be seeing more top marines placing on top. It's also worth noting that many top placements are bringing units specific to the new indices/supplements, like fenris wolves or deathwing, so they aren't winning despite tailoring against them, but because they simply dodge the primaris/gravis hate at the list building stage.


If the secondaries change a lot could change - but I'm not really sure on this Marine analysis.

As I see it there has been the odd event where there isn't a Marine player in the top 4 - but not many.

There is perhaps a sense of "why do people complain about Marines and not Harlequins/Custodes/Slaanesh" - but I think its because its harder to put the finger on the problem. (I think their stuff is just generally too cheap compared with other factions, but if you nerf it too much they could quickly go back to being rubbish.)


Simply put this community has a self-sustaining culture where marine bashing is acceptable and often encouraged.


And why is that ? Is there a specific reason or is it just human's madness at play ? Maybe if you guys tried to think about the core of the problem, idk...
I just arrived and I already identified several posters who are either marine-haters who think people who play them should be burnt on a cross, or hardcore marine-fanboys who will die before admitting they are even above average. What it leads to is very poor discussion.
Why is it that people hate/love this faction so much while harlequins, SoB, Daemons and Custodes who also score very well and have some extremely good units and synergies don't get this treatment ?

Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.

In the case of orks. The army has generally always been good. Nobs have a much better history than terminators do for example. Right now the basic nob doesn't really have a place - though the mega nob does. Probably because their roll would be exactly the same as boys anyways. Should nobs just become troops and become the "primaris type ork" IDK...


Okay settle down Soulburst! Nobz are always going to be weak while powerful units like the stompa and squigbuggy ( it shoots exploding squigs! ) Are around. Also people hate marines because they will outgun, outlive and out reroll to victory every second match and other factions are probably only winning due to how the objective system works
   
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And here comes the "ruin the thread with pointless anti/pro marine jabber" brigade.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/11/17 22:00:52


 
   
Made in us
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 Xenomancers wrote:

Marines get this treatment even when they are losing - always been this way. As you can see now with Custodes and Harliquens. People don't really care so much about imbalance specifically - because there is and always will be imbalance. You can't even rationalize with most of these people. They just hate marines. Like an older child that hates their younger sibling for getting all the attention except without any unconditional love at all.

In the case of orks. The army has generally always been good. Nobs have a much better history than terminators do for example. Right now the basic nob doesn't really have a place - though the mega nob does. Probably because their roll would be exactly the same as boys anyways. Should nobs just become troops and become the "primaris type ork" IDK...


...wow.

Marines are currently getting this treatment because they went from being top 3 best armies in 7th, to being top 3 best in 8th (Sorry you don't agree, but they were, and tournament results prove this) and now are easily top 3 in 9th. So when you say they "are losing" you are referring to the 6ish months of Knights with loyal 32 dominating everyone else. And guess what? Nobody defended that lol, we were all upset about SOUP breaking the game.

As to why nobody is really upset with Harlequins/custodes. I mean, I haven't seen people screaming about them as much. But do they have unbelievably broken units like Eradicators or have a troop choice that out shoots firewarriors while also out fighting genestealers point for point? But really you probably don't see as much hate for them because they are combined still only a FRACTION of the size the SM player base. How many Harly/Custards do you see running around on a regular basis? I haven't fought either one since before COVID, and Ive been playing fairly regularly.

Now, into your next comment. Orkz have always been good..... Cool, you complain about the small part of 8th where your army wasn't top tier (Still wont tournaments and had top placing in major events) but orkz have always been good. Lets just gloss over all of 7th where they were arguably the absolute worst army in the entire game. And lets also forget the only reason they were competitive in 5th-6th was because they benefited from the editions new rules and hadn't had a new codex to fix these issues since 4th.

Nobz need damage upgrades and a point decrease. That alone would make them worth taking. A strong melee unit that can dish out a ton of dmg in CC but isn't anywhere near as tough to remove as meganobz. Likewise I think Meganobz need a hefty increase in durability but they don't need a dmg increase. I would like to see Nobz being the dmg unit and meganobz being the tough/durable unit. Both fulfill different roles and both can do either job ok, but excel at their 1 speciality.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/11/17 22:08:48


If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





Dudeface wrote:
And here comes the "ruin the thread with pointless anti/pro marine jabber" brigade.


Sorry mate, when I see Xenomancer waddle into threads with wild hyperbole and wacky disenguation I can't help myself.
   
Made in de
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The thread's topic is "What is going to happen to Ork Nobz", I would appreciate if talk about any marines that are not in the process of getting punched by nobz would be taken elsewhere.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in fr
Fresh-Faced New User





I think if we keep their statline, Nobz should get:

- Base Nob cost 15pts

- Free: Choppa (that we will name "Nob choppa") go S "user" AP1 D1 + the wielder can make 1 additional attack

- +5pts: Big choppa go to S+2 AP2 D2

- +10pts: PK should go Sx2 AP3 D3 with -1 to hit

At that I would add a rule for them to get +1S when charged, they charge or heroic intervention. That way Nobz would get S6 base, big choppa S8 and PK S12

- Make the FnP from cyborg body go to 5+ and make it available to all models in the unit

I would also make the special equipment worthwile:

For every 5 Nob in the unit, 1 nob can take either:

+10pts: Buzzsaw Sx2 AP5 dd3 with -1 to hit, against vehicles dmg goes to d3+3

+10pts: Spike S "user" AP2 D1 if you successfully damage a unit with this weapon, reduce that unit's fall back movement by 2" until next turn

For range, i would just make the kustom weapons assault 4 instead of 2, bring the flamer to 10" and give the rockit +1 to hit against vehicles.

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Mr Raptor wrote:
I think if we keep their statline, Nobz should get:

- Base Nob cost 15pts

- Free: Choppa (that we will name "Nob choppa") go S "user" AP1 D1 + the wielder can make 1 additional attack

- +5pts: Big choppa go to S+2 AP2 D2

- +10pts: PK should go Sx2 AP3 D3 with -1 to hit

At that I would add a rule for them to get +1S when charged, they charge or heroic intervention. That way Nobz would get S6 base, big choppa S8 and PK S12

- Make the FnP from cyborg body go to 5+ and make it available to all models in the unit

I would also make the special equipment worthwile:

For every 5 Nob in the unit, 1 nob can take either:

+10pts: Buzzsaw Sx2 AP5 dd3 with -1 to hit, against vehicles dmg goes to d3+3

+10pts: Spike S "user" AP2 D1 if you successfully damage a unit with this weapon, reduce that unit's fall back movement by 2" until next turn

For range, i would just make the kustom weapons assault 4 instead of 2, bring the flamer to 10" and give the rockit +1 to hit against vehicles.



It's been a while but isn't cybork body a 5+ invuln anyway? It seems reasonable apart from the +1 strength. a 20 point model landing 3 s8 ap-2 d2 attacks seems a bit much.
   
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Right now cyborg body is a 6+++ that can only be taken by 1 per 5 nob in the squad

Idk, it's still on a 2w T4 4+ platform, does that sound really unreasonable ? Right now it's 3A S7 AP1 D2 for 22pts and nobody takes them
   
 
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