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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





I wanna go back to New Jersey

 Valkyrie wrote:
I really don't know if Kroot or Vespid could actually be effectively implemented into the game. As someone said previously there used to be a few extra Kroot units like the Great Knarlocs, but unless we get a good number of extra kits (almost certainly not but I'm clinging to hope that we get more than just an updated character), then can we represent this quite unique race with a very mediocre unit and a couple of addons which really don't do much except waste points?


Again, let Kroot outflank unhindered like they used to. Let them show up to apply pressure to min-sized objective campers that are hugging the board edge or pick up an objective that has been ignored. Allowing them to get the drop on a choice spot on the board will give them some teeth that they lost in the transition from 7th to 8th.

bonbaonbardlements 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Ordana wrote:
That's also what happens to Devilgaunts, you get 1 really good shooting phase out of them, and then they tend to get easily cleaned up. Which is fine for Devilgaunts that remove major threats with a truly obscene amount of shots but less good when its just bodies being thrown on objectives.


This is true - but cynically I feel its usually because you have one (at most two) Devilgaunt units in reserve that you expect to come in, break out stratagems/bonuses, maybe shoot twice depending on what's gone on with the Hive Guard, get a load of points in the bank and then be immediately focused down with extreme prejudice because your 210 point unit just did considerably more than 210 points worth of damage.

I'm not sure what a Tyranid Army would look like with say... 150~ devilgaunts on the table from the get-go. Obviously they can't all be buffed up like that one unit - but equally its unlikely they are all being cleared off turn 1. I'd imagine the argument however is that they die faster than say Hive Guard, Tyranid Warriors etc versus a range of weapon profiles so its not really worth it.
   
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Id rather auxiliaries not be the focus of the new book, theyre hyper bland and honestly could just be squatted with zero effect to the playability or viability to the army over all.

Kroot have some cult of memes built around them and human auxiliaries were never good and were intentionally made to not be good in the one IA they were in, Taros iirc.

Focus on suits, a new markerlight system, and unit upgrades. Tau to me is the custom build army, every suit is generally built to serve many potential situations. granted the riptide is an outlier but thats the reason its been so weird since it came out. make meaningful options for systems and weapons for crisis suits, no shoe horned melee option like the fusion blades and onager fist.
   
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After seeing the new rules. I REALLY hope Tau is just not buffed guns, that would be the worst way to make them better.

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 Ordana wrote:
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?


Specifically Tau. Parts of the pro-Imperium segment of the fanbase *despise* Tau to the point where they denigrate the Tau part of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
Any chance of you changing the record this decade?


When GW changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 02:08:09


 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




Hecaton wrote:
 Ordana wrote:
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?


Specifically Tau. Parts of the pro-Imperium segment of the fanbase *despise* Tau to the point where they denigrate the Tau part of the playerbase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dysartes wrote:
Any chance of you changing the record this decade?


When GW changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.

No, the difference is you're part of the audience that required GW to post an article explaining what satire is. [Note: solely the part explaining the literary concept, not the part telling neo-Nazi types off]

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/30 03:39:59


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Food for a Giant Fenrisian Wolf





SemperMortis wrote:


Weapons: Orkz either get a shoota or a choppa, Kroot get both So right off the bat, Kroot win.
Ranged: 24' Rapid Fire 1 S4 no AP. 30 of them ends with 15 hits or 30 at half range. Shoota boyz have 18' range Dakka 3/2 which means 2 shots most of the time for 40 shots and 13 hits. Kroot win.
CC: Against shoota boyz, its 30 attacks vs 40 so orkz win, against Choppa boyz its 30 attacks vs 60 and those attacks become -1AP So orkz win.


I did have to address this, since before the boyz points increase a friend and I were discussing the point of Kroot.

Firstly, if I'm talking shooting, I'm not looking at Kroot, but that's really beside the point.

The main part is Kroot don't get a choppa. I haven't played with Kroot since 8th, but I checked their profile, and don't remember any strats. As far as I know, there is no way to bring a carnivore above 1A. 20 Kroot? 20 str4 ws3+ attacks.

I don't know about you, but when you can't put out the melee of even a tactical marine, I can't be excited to run a squad into combat.

Carnivores have the job of dying on objectives and that's about it, since you can't even overwatch for them with the greater good any more

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 03:57:29


 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

Hecaton wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote:

Keep spewing nonsense.


The difference between what I'm saying and what you're saying is that the Astartes (and the Imperium) are portrayed as, and described as, heroic and righteous from an out-of-universe perspective.


bs.
Since day 1 of Rogue Trader it has ALWAYS been presented as an absurd over the top dark satire/parody. Through words & art.
Only some sort of fool reads about the Imperium and goes "Oh, they're the Good Guys!"

To top it off, GW DIRECTLY TELLS YOU THIS from time to time. Often through WD articles in ages past, but more recently pretty blatantly....

Here, go read the most current statement again: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/30 04:37:36


 
   
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 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them.


5 point Kroot with current stats would be amazing actually. I would instantly try taking a Kroot horde.
   
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On moon miranda.

Hey all, if we can stick to Tau and 9E instead of the depths of lore themes and strangeness of the fanbase, it would keep the thread more productive. Thanks!

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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Now that GW is playing around with stat lines, I do hope kroot fit the lore. They in the books (and represented by the models) are supposed to be fast, fierce and somewhat resilient to fire so maybe they get a T4 upgrade. also giving their weapon the chainsword/choppa extra attack might make them worthwhile general troops. Also would be cool to see them pull a Tzangor and bring out more options for kroot, maybe a heavier armored infantry variant

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 Aenar wrote:
Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


What codex synergies? They don't have any Which is why If you go look at 40kstats and inspect every ork list for the last 3 months you will see maybe 3-5 units of MSU ork boyz TOTAL. I'm not exaggerating either, almost nobody is taking any ork boyz at all, and the couple who are, are using them as a 10 boy troop tax. And they aren't even the "cheapest troop choice" which is why MORE lists are taking 50pt MSU Grot troop taxes so you can save the 40pts for useful units.

Kroot are very similar to ork boyz atm. Sadly that isn't a good thing, they are both functionally useless

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:

Kroot are very similar to ork boyz atm. Sadly that isn't a good thing, they are both functionally useless


That's a big hurdle for us, like 75% of the Tau codex is utterly useless right now, it seems like most everything in there is extraneous fluff. I'd ditch most all of it and build out from restatted main units again but I doubt GW will 'retire' anything.

In my dream of dreams we'd be able to have reasonable lists that are mechanized focused, suit focused, infantry focused, or auxiliary focused.

Think of the other armies with huge model ranged like Guard, while they aren't stomping the top tier you can field a bunch of different stuff with wildly different playstyles and have fun at least and not -immediately- lose

   
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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/

Here we go let's see....
   
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OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/

Here we go let's see....


That....doesn't look that bad...right?
   
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Given that since 6th edition, you rarely have 1/2 or more of your army left by turn 3, who would ever take kauyon outside of a thematic battle? Montka is very good, missilesides just got even stronger
   
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/12/14/master-the-ways-of-montka-and-kauyon-with-codex-tau-empires-new-tactical-philosophies/

Here we go let's see....


That....doesn't look that bad...right?
losing fall back and shoot from Mont'ka is massive unless there are other ways of getting it. Competitive Tau lists are running Farsight just to be able to retreat twice in a game.
   
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Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.

   
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 Valkyrie wrote:
Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.



Orks get "WAAAAGH" or "SPEED WAAAAGH" Which lasts 1 turn with full benefits and a 2nd turn with half benefits. Tau get to choose between 2 army wide special rules and realistically they will pick the first one since its doubles their AP on most weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/12/15 15:11:47


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Sureshot Kroot Hunter





 Aenar wrote:
Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


I did miss out on this a few weeks ago when it was posted, but I feel compelled to jump in and defend my favorite alien race.

Are they really good, no, but there are two specific circumstances I've a had a lot of success with Kroot in.

1. In a Kroot heavy swarm list. You use Ethereals to give the Kroot a 6+ FNP and LD 9 which makes them (for their points cost) pretty durable. If you can stick them in cover with Hidden Hunters, even better. I grab all the midfield objectives turn 1 with their pregame move and just weather the storm. Most armies (that I've fought so far at least) have enough committed to dealing with tanks and monsters that they have trouble removing so many tiny bodies in 10 man units fast enough. I run 2 blobs of 30 Carnivores each baked by an Ethereal and a Shaper for re-roll 1's to wound and banners, then focus down all their obsec units first (All told that's only 570 points including drones for 68 bodies to gum up the midfield, then you've filled your HQ and Troops too so you can just get whatever after that). Currently 7-0 with that strat (though this is local league of casual players, not tournament so YMMV if that is more your thing as I have no data there)

2. As a single unit for grabbing a midfield objective in cover. You loose a lot without the Etheral backup and I certainly wouldn't recommend them en masse at that point, however a single unit at 60 points isn't that huge an investment for a Midfield objective. If it's in cover, you get a 4+ sv and -1 to be hit with the hidden hunters strat. That's going to take a not insignificant amount of small arms fire to dislodge. Compare that to the only other Obsec option that can get up there that fast, a unit of 5 Fire Warriors in a Devilfish which all told is a min of 115 points and the Troops part of it is just as fragile as they have half the bodies and no defensive strat.

I'm actually worried that Kroot will get an unintentional nerf in the codex, not being <Core> and loosing out on the main draw to them in option 1.

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NE Ohio, USA

SemperMortis wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Yeah I'm not impressed at all with these changes, in particular how every army seems to have a game-spanning effect such as Combat Doctrines or Necrons' Protocols, but ours is limited to half of the game.



Orks get "WAAAAGH" or "SPEED WAAAAGH" Which lasts 1 turn with full benefits and a 2nd turn with half benefits. Tau get to choose between 2 army wide special rules and realistically they will pick the first one since its doubles their AP on most weapons.


Well, that and few of them will be left alive to benefit from the 2nd come turns 3+....
   
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 pumaman1 wrote:
Given that since 6th edition, you rarely have 1/2 or more of your army left by turn 3, who would ever take kauyon outside of a thematic battle? Montka is very good, missilesides just got even stronger


Could possibly be ways to modify, we don't know yet. Ex: Shadowsun's WT could be something like start Kauyon on turn 2 which suddenly sounds a lot more appealing.

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1000 1000 1000 1000 1000  
   
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Been Around the Block



UK

Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/12/17 15:15:02


 
   
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bedivere wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)
Because it doesn't work in 9th.

Your going second, your opponent has scored heavily twice and now you need to practically wipe them in a single turn on turn 3 because you need turn 4 and 5 to claw back the points deficit in order to win.

Remember, even if you arrive at the earlier opportunity, in turn 2, you won't be moving unto objectives until turn 3 and only score with those units at the start of your turn 4.
   
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Yea dunking people with a hard strike a few turns in means you already lost on objective points for the long haul.

Just...more me being nervous Tau still aren't going to play the gd 9th missions giving us bonuses halfway through the game when most of our goodstuffs are already dead in hyperlethal 9th edition
   
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bedivere wrote:
Just gonna throw it out there, wouldn't Kauyon favour those who have re enforcements or use manta strike?
The release indicated that it is an ambush tactic, and ambush tactics always make me think about dropping units onto or near targets or objectives.

You could easily have a few units for turns 1 and 2 to capture and keep a few basic nearby objectives and then come down hard and heavy with everything else and that may favour some missions, would that make sense in that scenario?


Just to add, this would also make sense if they are / do move XV8 crisis suits to troop choice, to allow more troops to drop in and would be a good option.
Makes me think that maybe they would remove the Mont’ka and Kauyon abilities from farsight and shadowsun and give them manat strike?
Would be good to make the devilfish either assult transport or manta strike ability just so it can be used to drop troops in aswell (like a drop pop)


Not to pile on you for at least being optimistic and thinking about this, but if you run into an alpha strike list...you run a significant chance of being tabled before your reinforcements arrive. My Alphork strike list LOVES when my opponent places max units in reserve. Means less on the table to stop me turn 1 from getting stuck into combat and removing swathes of enemy units. As an example, if you put 49% of your army in reserve to use Kauyon, turn 1 I have 3 units of 10 Kommandos (360pts) 9 inches from your deployment zone who turn 1 get to move 6, advance D6 and then charge 2D6. You also have a small swarm of 3x3 warbikers and 3x3 Deffkoptas all moving 14' turn 1 and the warbikers choosing to either advance or shoot while the deffkoptas just let loose with 18D3 Rokkitz and depending on deployment have a semi-reliable charge or for 1CP a very reliable charge (3D6 charge) you also have 3x Trukk boyz units which while significantly less damaging are also joining the fun because...why not? So turn 1 you will have close to 1,500pts of Orkz in your lines and you have 180pts of mek gunz plinking away from their lines. If that horde is only facing 1k pts of tau? its GG Turn 1, turn 2 at the absolute latest.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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South Carolina, USA

I spent some time looking at Battlescribe and thinking about how to counter the "Orkz in your face turn 1" tactic with Kauyon, and I don't think it's feasible with the tools the T'au currently have. For example, I thought about a kroot-heavy frontline to absorb the first turn of charges, with a stealth-heavy surge zone, including stealths, Ghostkeel, and a shaper to boost Kroot morale a tiny bit. I included an Ethereal to give the Kroot 6+ FNP (which is basically no help, really), and gave all the stealth suits shield generators and shield drones. I don't think it would be enough to hold out until turn 3 though.

The Kauyon strike would be Crisis suit teams with flamers, burst cannons, and fusion blasters set to drop in first turn of Kauyon and blast as many units to pieces as possible. Even with a Crisis suit commander and 3 crisis suit teams optimized for vehicle, MEQ, or GEQ destruction, I don't think there's a way to make it function currently.

Some things that would help:

-Add a Kroot ability to get increased bonuses from cover saves somehow. Tie to to the Shaper or add another Kroot elite or sergeant, whatever. This, combined with ethereal 6+ FNP (if that even works on Kroot?) would give them a little bit of staying power.
-Change the bonding knife ritual to a 1-use-per-battle ability that allows the unit to avoid having to make a morale check. Most units don't have to check leadership more than once in a battle - they get shot to pieces and then eliminated next turn. Let T'au units survive that first round of devastation without leadership issues.
-Bring back the "you can't target this unit at greater than X inches" rule for stealth suits. In 5th edition, if you chose a stealth unit to shoot at, you had to roll 3D6 and be within that range to be able to target them. It doesn't have to be that mechanic if you don't want to add dice rolls, but definitely add extra distance for terrain. A stealth team in light cover should be hard to target, not just harder to hit. This wouldn't save them from the Ork Rush, but it would mean they wouldn't get whittled down by turn 1 shooting.

These are just some ideas that seemed like they might (emphasis on might) make it possible for a tau army to withstand the green tide long enough for their shooting to matter. I don't think they'd be able to win, though, simply because turn 2 and turn 3 primary objectives would have been sacrificed. Moral victories aren't great victories, especially in WH40K. But that's all I see as being possible in the current scoring system.

Squats 2020! 
   
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We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.
   
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EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.


I have to disagree, you can have as much terrain as you want, the more you have the more it impacts the Tau (shooty) player rather then their opponent. Kauyon is DOA in my opinion. Most games are decided turn 1-2. You have to figure, turn 1 and turn 2 is when both armies are technically at their strongest. Very anecdotal, but in my games, if I haven't basically decided the game by turn 2 I think i'm screwed. Keep in mind, I am talking strictly about competitive/tournament playing here, not friendly games. An army wide buff that doesn't take effect until turn 3 at the earliest, and is weakest at that point isn't going to help the Tau win by much. Honestly, Kauyon style would be the best possible matchup for my Alphork army.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
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EightFoldPath wrote:
We've not got much information to go off currently, but I do think Tau in the hands of top players will be winning tournaments with Kauyon builds. The heavier terrain density and the cagier way the best players actually play does give Kauyon some potential.

Unless Tau are pointed like Dark Eldar/Orks, then it will Montka face-rolling time for 6 months.
The problem isn't hiding for 2 turns (tho half decent Rush list like Orks, DE, BA or BT will make that impossible). The problem is what hiding for 2 turns will do to your score and how your going to get those lost points back while also tabling your opponent in short order. And you will need to effectively table them because if they score some more you won't be able to catch up regardless of what you do.
   
 
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