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Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut




As for things I’d like to see:
- all battle suits except stealth suits gain the vehicle keyword. This lets them shoot into combat and otherwise brings them in line with other factions by allowing things like arc rifles to actually work on them.
- most battle suits need a wound increase. IMO, crisis suits should get 5 wounds like kills kans or penitent engines, enforcer/coldstars should get 8 like dreadnoughts, ghostkeel should have 12 like armigers, and riptide could get 16 or so. The reason for this is to reduce the need for drones.
- all suits gain BS 3+ just like the hammerhead.
- gun drones should be able to shoot into combat, but they lose any ability to actually fight. Kinda like in Dawn of War. This might not be necessary I admit.
- I’d give crisis suits obsec.
- This would make crisis suits and drones our primary option for contesting objectives, which feels appropriate I think. A nice big heavy hitter that can deal with all targets gets dropped where it’s needed most.
- vespid could be made a bit better in combat to diversify the support crisis suits get on the front lines.
- kroot need a huge rules overhaul. Without getting into details, they could act like a hybrid between wyches and kabalites. Partially a skirmisher unit, but one that hits hard in combat while being hard to hit back. Also a better outflank/infiltrate rule would help. It’d be cool if they also synergized with pathfinders in a scouting role, as in let them both infiltrate together or something. Kroot hounds are mostly fine, but the krootox needs to hit harder in combat.
- an overall boost to things like railguns would also help.
-tweak marker lights so that seeker missiles are easy to use(eg, one marker = one guaranteed hit), and each marker can only buff one weapon at a time and is expended in the process. So if need be you can use it on a railgun or something, but it’s not required for the army to function. And the buff can be minor, like ignoring obscuring terrain, it doesn’t have to be +1 BS. Basically it’d be a nice tool to have, but not strictly necessary.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




As suspected, the new weapon profiles are nice, but this is the minimum we should expect in the world of 9th killy-ness right now. A good start, though, even if on tiny boards full of armies charging on turn 1.....

We should assume that breachers and pulse blasters will get a similar damage buff, which will still be useless unless we have a good assault transport to deliver them/clear objectives

Markerlights need an entire rework as well, and lots of smarter folks have suggested new uses for them.

   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I'll not lie, 36" RF1 S5 AP1 d1 isn't a bad start to a gunline army. With a special sept that pushes that out to 42", that means 2 shots at 24" per firewarrior, and that will get ugly fast.
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 Lord Damocles wrote:
'More damage! That's sure to fix it!'


'But this one goes to eleven!' is the only design space 9th edition has.
Its just a matter of giving the same amp to everyone.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




I know my tastes don't match the majority, but I'd start by deleting the large suits, and restoring the 12 model standard...

I got into tau for their tanks (and a paint scheme). Not anime suits.
I really liked them using base 8 counting and 12 model units.

As annoying as jump shoot jump is/was, I think that's kind of key to how Tau function when not playing pure gunline. There has to be a way to make it work without being obnoxious. It would definitely help in terms of taking hold of objectives - move up, shoot the enemy off it, move onto the objective.

Other than that, I don't really have a lot of ideas for them because the faction has already moved so far away from its roots, and because I have limited interest in 9th.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Zustiur wrote:
I know my tastes don't match the majority, but I'd start by deleting the large suits, and restoring the 12 model standard...

I got into tau for their tanks (and a paint scheme). Not anime suits.
I really liked them using base 8 counting and 12 model units.

As annoying as jump shoot jump is/was, I think that's kind of key to how Tau function when not playing pure gunline. There has to be a way to make it work without being obnoxious. It would definitely help in terms of taking hold of objectives - move up, shoot the enemy off it, move onto the objective.

Other than that, I don't really have a lot of ideas for them because the faction has already moved so far away from its roots, and because I have limited interest in 9th.


I like the suits being part of the lineup, not the forced only route to be playable as currently designed part :( I'd love to get a ton of tanks of different varieties but they are all just so awful.

The codex is just like 80% fluff with mostly useless units, and I just doubt GW is going to retire most of them :/

   
Made in us
Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps





United States

T'au being locked out of two phases of the game was a "neat" gimmick back in the day. But it makes for extremely bland and boring game play. Given that the T'au are a coalition of races, they need to have the ability to compete in those two areas.

First, obviously they need a new book.
Secondly and probably more important than the first point is they need some new models. Adding in a couple of new HQ from some new alien group that has recently allied with them and has a firm understanding of Psionics and the warp should be the focus here. Secondly, give a new suit class that has some sick wolverine claws or a a pair of energy blades.

Putting more focus on Aux would also be welcomed. To see new sculpts for Kroot and new units allowing for greater playability and such would go a long way towards having an impact on the tabletop.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Togusa wrote:
T'au being locked out of two phases of the game was a "neat" gimmick back in the day. But it makes for extremely bland and boring game play. Given that the T'au are a coalition of races, they need to have the ability to compete in those two areas.


But they weren't, as I detailed in my post earlier ITT...

Back in the day, there were only 3 phases in the game- Move, Shooting and Assault. Tau actively participated in all 3, the last one either through JSJ, Kroot or even charging those same Crisis Suits into melee, yes they were WS2, but had 3 attacks each at S5 on the charge so could pack a bit of a punch if you were getting desperate. JSJ and mobility was what differentiated them from IG, both have been taken away and for the worse.

I'd say, only since the (re)introduction of the psychic phase and Tau somehow morphing into a gunline army (something I believe is only from 8th onwards due to the loss of JSJ) have they been "locked out" from two phases, and even then they quite literally weren't locked out of the assault phase as Kroot are a thing. People not wanting to take Kroot is a fault of them having subpar stats, not the gimmick of the Tau.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.
Guardsmen at 5.5 ppm are a different story entirely, as their value lies in orders and it is basically what makes IG unique.

Kroots are trash even when compared with other trash troop choices in the same book, like Fire Warriors or Breachers at 9 ppm.
Even assuming the 5 ppm universal floor went away, current Kroot would be useless at 4 ppm. Maybe at 3 ppm you could consider flooding the board with them, but even then I wouldn't be so sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/27 14:20:29



 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I really hope they give FWs a points bump because I don't want to have to spend half the game wading through 100 FWs shooting me from across the map. It's clear to me at least that GW is trying to let Tau cling to the "Yeah we suck in melee, too bad you'll never make it there" gimmick with them. I don't see how everyone thinks they HAVE to suck in melee. They are pound for pound bigger and stronger than a standard human. I'm not saying they can arm wrestle an astartes, but they should be able to at least hold their own as well as say, a Catachan?
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





No, the basic Tau sucks in melee and should remain so. Battlesuits OTOH should absolutely be able to engage in melee, but we know there are no new models (outside of darkstrider) coming so it comes down to leveraging their current weapon systems to give it a melee profile. It's already been done with Fusion (fusion blades) and I could see possibly adding flamers possibly into the mix with a melee profile.
I don't know how GW will go about making them playable (I do not want a gunline army), so hopefully it's more thought than just boosting AP etc.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.


Yep. If the buffs stay the same you could have a unit of firewarriors double tapping +1 at 22' range. That would be 9ppm guys with 3 S5 -1AP shots. So a unit of 10 would put out 30 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds and 5 dmg to a Marine unit. Thats 90pts of Firewarrior tapping 50pts of Marines at 22' range. And thats without any other buffs like +1 BS or rerolls etc. I just have a bad feeling GW is going to break the game again with Tau. Hopefully they nerf overwatch a bit because otherwise its going to be a bad day to be an ork player again

I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that


But.... Given all the complaints about how lethal the game is & how people get tabled in 2-3turns, isn't that exactly what everyone else is doing? Why would you want to be left out?
and how do you propose to survive until turns 3, 4, maybe even 5?
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
 Aenar wrote:
I'll be completely honest: if they break the game again I don't care. I just want to play my Tau.
If we end up being broken for 3-6 months, nerfs will come with the next update.
So is the state of current 40k.


If we can only win with the castle up and blast them off the table in two turns and walk onto objectives method no one will be having much fun on either end of that

Oh I agree. I won a game against meta SM a couple of days ago exactly with that game plan and it wasn't a fun experience for neither of us.
I went second, kept my army hidden behind obscuring terrain for my turn 1 as well (shooting only with SMS, ignoring LOS), once his army was all around the table in the open I tabled him by turn 4 and won the game getting 15-0 turn 5 in primary. He killed only a Devilfish, a Vespid unit and a bunch of Drones, while I removed 2000 points of Dreads, VanVets and other SM infantry.
He certainly did not enjoy the game and I wasn't pleased with it as well. I simply played the only way I could to try to win.
In retrospection he should've played more cagey and tried to sit on deeper objectives with a couple more units, so that I wouldn't have been able to shoot him off them. But where's the fun in sitting still against a gunline army?

I want a Tau ruleset that makes for an interesting game for both players. But since I'm tired of being let down by GW while having even the most modest expectations, I'm accepting whatever rules they have in store for us.
If we are to be the next AdMech or Freebootaz for a few months, so be it. Balance updates are a quarterly thing now so we only have to suffer a specific broken army for so long.
Unless they are Dark Eldar


 
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





SemperMortis wrote:
OneBoxForOptimism wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
I failed to make this prediction before the new rules were leaked but my theory was that GW is going to buff all their shooting to make them ridiculous again. The 36' S5-1AP is okish but I have a feeling thats going to translate across the board, I don't know which weapons are going to be the new broken cheese but I have a feeling its going to be Burst cannons or smart missiles and they will be good at just about everything.


Let's also remember 36" s5 ap1 will be the baseline, without the multiple auras and drones that will send it into overdrive with rerolls and other buffs. We've got quite a few characters and drones and stratagems that would already make a few blobs of these silly dangerous.

We keep getting back to the Tau not needing to be more shooty and killy per se past a buff to 9th current standards, we just want to play the damn mission and compete for points in the other areas of the game.


Yep. If the buffs stay the same you could have a unit of firewarriors double tapping +1 at 22' range. That would be 9ppm guys with 3 S5 -1AP shots. So a unit of 10 would put out 30 shots, 15 hits, 10 wounds and 5 dmg to a Marine unit. Thats 90pts of Firewarrior tapping 50pts of Marines at 22' range. And thats without any other buffs like +1 BS or rerolls etc. I just have a bad feeling GW is going to break the game again with Tau. Hopefully they nerf overwatch a bit because otherwise its going to be a bad day to be an ork player again

I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.
Tyranids are doing similar things with Gaunts with Devourers for less points.
This change might end up making them 'usable' but probably still not good enough for spamming in competitive lists. I don't see it making Firewarriors 'broken'.

9th edition is simply that crazy on firepower on the actually good units.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/28 12:44:20


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

 Ordana wrote:


I remember in 8th where my opponent ran a blob of Firewarriors interlocking one another so if you charged any of them you got hit in the face with 40 overwatching firewarriors with 3 shots each hitting on 5s. Basically, unless you charged in a battlewagon first, you couldn't get your boyz into CC because they would all die to overwatch.
Tyranids are doing similar things with Gaunts with Devourers for less points.
This change might end up making them 'usable' but probably still not good enough for spamming in competitive lists. I don't see it making Firewarriors 'broken'.

9th edition is simply that crazy on firepower on the actually good units.


Leads me to a weird rules based vision of a Leman Russ firing its BC into such a mixed mob - and only hitting models from unit A.
Sure, x dead gants are still x dead, but I dont think HE shells are that discriminating....
Alas for the lack of my templates.:(
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.
Which is why no army other then Marines has ever been good, right?

right?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.

Any chance of you changing the record this decade?

2021 Plog - Here we go again... - my fifth attempt at a Dakka PLOG

My [url=https://pileofpotential.com/dysartes]Pile of Potential[/url - updates ongoing...

Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.


 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Hecaton wrote:
I kinda think that making Tau good is going to run up against GW's most important goal, keeping Astartes players happy. Having Tau be good on the tabletop or have good portrayals in fluff is going to make the segment of Astartes players that love their JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE and ASTARTES POWER FANTASY and so on unhappy.


Keep spewing nonsense.

As for enjoying JUSTIFIED GENOCIDE? I think every other force I own can lay claim to enjoying that:
•Korne- blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne....
•Necrons- "1100111011100....."
Spoiler:
the living!"

•Tau- it's for the "Greater Good". Really, it is. We swear!
•Drukari- we're eeevil.
•Eldar- "Eldrad (points) told us to!" Eldrad mumbles something inscrutable in not-(space) Elvish about "visions:....
•"WAAAGH!" - all 10 of my KT Orks.
•Guard- (shrugging) "Orders."
•Sisters of Battle- "Burn/purge the {enemies name here}!"
•Tyranids- "Mmmm, dinner....."
Yep. All justified.
   
Made in us
Brainy Biophagus Brewing Potent Chemicals






 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.


Kroot don't look too bad compared to a base Fleshborer Termagant. The single extra point buys an extra inch of movement, a pre-game move, an extra shot at 12'' or double range for single shot, WS3+ instead of 4+, and S4 instead of S3 in melee. I actually ran 60 Kroot in a list for a local event a couple weeks ago partially based on finding them similar to Termagants (mostly using both types of troops for holding objectives with bodies and actions).

I do think they would benefit from more attacks (in keeping with how most assault troops have gone up) either baseline or as a benefit of their Kroot Rifle's melee profile. It would also be nice if the other Kroot units could be attached to Carnivore squads like Tactical Drones, so if you wanted some high strength or overwatch bait you wouldn't need to give up elite or fast slots that would prefer to be used on suits and marklight support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 02:05:45


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If Kroot had morale immunity I think they'd be solid at 6 points. As it is big units are a bit of a liability.

With that said you have a BS4 boltgun, a WS3+ S4 melee attack and that free 7" move at the start of the game. Compared to similar pointed units, that's a dramatic upgrade in damage. And you have relatively easy/cheap ways to give reroll 1s to hit and wound.

Admittedly, Devilgaunts at just 7 points are better - but I think few would deny they are good these days especially with the various Tyranid synergies.

The time will soon be past with a new Codex, but I'll continue to think there's something to +/- 150-180 Kroot with a couple of ethereals and shapers buffing them up to flood the board shooty stuff sits behind them (idk, Commanders, a solitary riptide, some broadsides). But I'm not convinced its not a collection anyone sane would own.
   
Made in gb
Lord of the Fleet






London

I really don't know if Kroot or Vespid could actually be effectively implemented into the game. As someone said previously there used to be a few extra Kroot units like the Great Knarlocs, but unless we get a good number of extra kits (almost certainly not but I'm clinging to hope that we get more than just an updated character), then can we represent this quite unique race with a very mediocre unit and a couple of addons which really don't do much except waste points?
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Tyel wrote:
If Kroot had morale immunity I think they'd be solid at 6 points. As it is big units are a bit of a liability.

With that said you have a BS4 boltgun, a WS3+ S4 melee attack and that free 7" move at the start of the game. Compared to similar pointed units, that's a dramatic upgrade in damage. And you have relatively easy/cheap ways to give reroll 1s to hit and wound.

Admittedly, Devilgaunts at just 7 points are better - but I think few would deny they are good these days especially with the various Tyranid synergies.

The time will soon be past with a new Codex, but I'll continue to think there's something to +/- 150-180 Kroot with a couple of ethereals and shapers buffing them up to flood the board shooty stuff sits behind them (idk, Commanders, a solitary riptide, some broadsides). But I'm not convinced its not a collection anyone sane would own.
The issue with hordes is that the top armies have no problem chewing through them.

That's also what happens to Devilgaunts, you get 1 really good shooting phase out of them, and then they tend to get easily cleaned up. Which is fine for Devilgaunts that remove major threats with a truly obscene amount of shots but less good when its just bodies being thrown on objectives.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Aenar wrote:
Compare a Kroot Carnivore at 6 ppm with a Skitarii or Ork boy at 9 ppm or a Kabalite Warrior/Wrack at 8 ppm and you have the answer to why nobody takes them. Even Tyr Gants are on a different planet compared to Kroots.


I can...but you won't like it

For starters, 6ppm Carnivores vs 9ppm Boyz.

So 180pts of each gets you 30 Carnivores and 20 Boyz. Both have terrible leadership and run whenever taking casualties so that is kind of a moot point.

Movement: Kroot are better by 2 full inches, they also get that free 7' movement at the start of the game. So turn 1 the Kroot are 14' past deployment zone while my Boyz are 5.
WS: Exactly the same.
BS: Kroot win, BS4 to BS5
S: Orkz win S4 to S3. (Kind of) Kroot are S4 thanks to their weapon they have to take.
T: Orkz win, T5 to T3
W: exactly the same.
A: Orkz win, 2 to 1
Save: the same.

Weapons: Orkz either get a shoota or a choppa, Kroot get both So right off the bat, Kroot win.
Ranged: 24' Rapid Fire 1 S4 no AP. 30 of them ends with 15 hits or 30 at half range. Shoota boyz have 18' range Dakka 3/2 which means 2 shots most of the time for 40 shots and 13 hits. Kroot win.
CC: Against shoota boyz, its 30 attacks vs 40 so orkz win, against Choppa boyz its 30 attacks vs 60 and those attacks become -1AP So orkz win.

So Kroot have significantly better movement, better BS, better ranged weapon, basically the same strength, save, weapon skill and leadership as the ork, but they pay 50% less than the Ork Boy

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying Kroot Carnivores are good, i'm just pointing out how bad Ork boyz currently are Mostly due to their abysmal morale issues, though shoota boyz could use a massive boost as well.



 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in it
Focused Fire Warrior





Ork Boyz lack a reliable delivery mechanism, but between T5, their melee output and the codex synergies they are still miles ahead of Kroots.
Same thing for Fleshborer Gants, looking at their statline in a vacuum means ignoring their potential, which lies again in codex synergies (strats and so on) that make them a reliable alpha strike unit.

Kroot have nothing, just their stats.
They aren't even the cheapest Tau troop choice as they come in 60 pts units while Fire Warriors are 45 pts minimum. Even as tax troop choices they are sub par.


 
   
 
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