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sanguine40k wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.

One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

Or "While every model in this unit is in base to base contact with at least 2 other models, +1 to hit rolls".

 Valkyrie wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.

One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

Or "While every model in this unit is in base to base contact with at least 2 other models, +1 to hit rolls".

you could give them BS 2+ and people would probably still not bring them. a single str 5 shot is useless in 9th.

sanguine40k wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.

One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.

One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.

Probably have Guardian Drones do one of those "ignore AP -1/-2" benefits for their firewarriors instead of a +5 invuln field so they can use their 4+ armor save somewhat more often.

 Kanluwen wrote:

sanguine40k wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
The trick to making people field Firewarriors is to make them actually useful and not completely terrible and only existing as a Troop tax.

Which again goes back to the increased lethality making so many troops for all sorts of armies terrible because they can't match the output of the 'good' stuff.

One way to make firewarriors possibly more useful would be something like: Dug in - 'While this unit is within 3" of an objective add 1 to saving throws made for this unit'.

They already are sitting at a fairly high save for a basic trooper...and this feels more like a Guard rule than a Tau rule.

Better option would be to, y'know, utilize the Guardian and Shield Drones better.

It's more to reward playing the primary.

Add more auxiliaries for one. Even going the lazy route of a gue'vasa upgrade sprue for Cadians, like the Genestealer Cult one, and letting someone take a few basic Guardsmen units as non-core auxiliary units. Make Kroot worth taking, do something with Vespids (had to look up their data sheet to see what they even do, and at best case it looks like a discount scion, trading a point in ballistic skill for a better main weapon, faster move speed, and a point of toughness?). Then bring in another auxiliary race or two, Tarellians, Demiurg, the psyker ones, etc, and give each a clear role in the army.

Gue'vasa would fill the role of cheap chaff essentially with a basic Guardsman profile and maybe access to Pulse Rifles as a special weapon for the squad.

Give Kroot slightly better movement and make them a halfway decent bully unit. Not capable of taking on true heavy hitter close combat units, but useful in pressing units not specialized in the role or as a screen. Say increase their base movement by 1", change their rifles to Assault 2, add one extra attack, and allow them to charge after advancing. Lets them zoom across the board, fire their weapons, and charge fairly effectively against other low tier units.

Give the Kroot Shaper something to do - maybe it unlocks upgrades to Kroot units as they you know, shaped their tribe. Maybe with a Shaper in the army, you can give Kroot extra abilities, like ap -1 for 1 point per model, or +1 strength, or +1 attack, or maybe they have sharp eyes, so the range on their rifles is now 30". Right now all a Shaper does is boost morale of nearby Kroot by 1, give a reroll 1s aura, and grant a situational morale immunity on the off chance it actually kills something. Let them be a key to unlock some fun abilities with Kroot units and some interesting things might come up, even paying a few extra points per model (plus the cost of the Shaper) you could then customize your Kroot with several abilities.

Vespids I have no clue with. I'd say lean in to the movement aspect but honestly it just feels like they pay a bit much for what they bring and I'm not fully sure what to give them that doesn't step on other units toes or turn them into something completely different.

Other auxiliary ideas would be armored units, or units capable of melee beyond a bullying role. I would say don't lean full melee, make it a balanced unit that can work at both range and in melee instead of a specialist. Either mark the durability with a good save, or a good toughness or multiple wounds (say pick 2 of the 3). Something to widen the pool a bit and bring the whole coalition bit back to the forefront, that is the most interesting part about the Tau after all. Heck, with the more than one wound genie out of the bottle, it would be interesting to see what a multi-wound T3 unit would look like - a species just as easy to injure as a regular human, but harder to put down.

Maybe let Breachers fire their weapons in close combat? They are a unit based around wanting to get up close and personal, are useless compared to a strike team at more than 15", worse than a strike team from 10-15", and finally stronger than them below that, but even then, they don't shine until they are within 5" of a foe. On a unit with no melee capability beyond sacrificing one of its attacks for a grenade that makes the enemy worse at mulching them. They don't need to be melee beasts, but they should be able to at least hold their own, or at bare minimum fight on par with their points in guardsmen. Even just a note on their guns that say "count as 'Pistol 1' when in close combat" would give them something. Honestly I don't think it would break much if they got 2 shots in close combat, its not like they will be some broken melee beast. It just feels like a unit that has no real role, as anything that survives their best will just immediately destroy them, and regular Fire Warriors are less risky with their 30" range and better gun in all but the closest of encounters.

Pretty sure there is already a 1CP strat to make all 3 pulse guns (Carbine, rifle and blaster) Pistol 2 in combat.

honestly I know people would hate it, but the tau are supposed to be a fire and fade army. they should be able to move, shoot, move. basically all infantry units able to move either their movement speed or 1d6 in the assault phase if not charging. not move for a cp, an armywide rule I like the d6 better since it would mean more of a gamble to say move a large unit out to get all shots when you might not get back out of lien of sight.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
honestly I know people would hate it, but the tau are supposed to be a fire and fade army. they should be able to move, shoot, move. basically all infantry units able to move either their movement speed or 1d6 in the assault phase if not charging. not move for a cp, an armywide rule I like the d6 better since it would mean more of a gamble to say move a large unit out to get all shots when you might not get back out of lien of sight.

which is precisely what JSJ used to do. No guaranteed movement like the Vectored Retro Thrusters Relic, and on a body that was just fragile enough to get wiped if it ended up in the open.

Minor stat adjustments to Tau weapon damage will bring them up to 9th standards, I'm not too worried about that and expect those changes. What we don't really need is more ways to blast things off of objectives from across the map, which we already have in spades.

The main hole we have is fighting mid board, taking objectives, and then holding onto them. We need more durability and more ways to deter assaults into troops holding an objective. More specialist drones that reduce assault ranges or attacks, more troop options that can screen or punish assaults. The Tau roster should be encouraging us to slug it out in multiple areas of the board more and play the 9th mission.

I'm imagining retooled assault transports with breachers that can actually help clear a point after aggressive movement, and then some new tools to hold and not immediately die.

Nearly all of the best armies right now are throwing out tons of pressure in multiple phases of the game all over the map. Aggressive movement, tons of damage, making your opponent have to make tough choices on what to kill and what to contest and some hard calls on who to ignore. People playing against us right now rarely have to make hard decisions on what units to try to kill.

1) First thing necessary to avoid castles: fall back and shoot as a basic rule (for at least FLY units).
Not as a strat or special ability, but as an army rule.
Tau can only move, shoot and roll saves. If you take away the possibility of dealing damage by simply tagging them in melee with a cheap unit, the whole army stops working.
Tables are smaller, turn 1 charges are allowed and basically every army has a way to tag you in melee turn one if they want to. This creates a situation where the Tau player wants to avoid that, so he castles up with layers of screens.
Result: you either make it through and tag him (win the game but it is a miserable experience) or you don't and get shot off the board (lose the game and it is a miserable experience).
If they were able to fall back and shoot freely, the Tau player wouldn't be so worried of being tagged in melee and the game becomes more interactive. You charge, deal damage, Tau disengage, deal damage, and so on.

2) Second thing necessary to play the objective game in 9th: a way to move after shooting that doensn't involve charging into melee.
I would simply bring back JSJ as a basic ability for JETPACK units, for example. You shoot and then in the charge phase you can move i) half your M", ii) your M", iii) a fixed distance, iv) a random distance or whatever.
To balance it I would require the unit not to have used the fall back and shoot rule this turn. So you either fall back and shoot or move after shooting.

These first two point would be the bare minimum, necessary to let Tau be an army that works in 9th ed.
Then you can change markerlights (right now they are basically useless), weapon profiles, datasheets, strats, the free overwatch, drones protocols, etc.

 Aenar wrote:
1) First thing necessary to avoid castles: fall back and shoot as a basic rule (for at least FLY units).
Not as a strat or special ability, but as an army rule.
Tau can only move, shoot and roll saves. If you take away the possibility of dealing damage by simply tagging them in melee with a cheap unit, the whole army stops working.
Tables are smaller, turn 1 charges are allowed and basically every army has a way to tag you in melee turn one if they want to. This creates a situation where the Tau player wants to avoid that, so he castles up with layers of screens.
Result: you either make it through and tag him (win the game but it is a miserable experience) or you don't and get shot off the board (lose the game and it is a miserable experience).
If they were able to fall back and shoot freely, the Tau player wouldn't be so worried of being tagged in melee and the game becomes more interactive. You charge, deal damage, Tau disengage, deal damage, and so on.

2) Second thing necessary to play the objective game in 9th: a way to move after shooting that doensn't involve charging into melee.
I would simply bring back JSJ as a basic ability for JETPACK units, for example. You shoot and then in the charge phase you can move i) half your M", ii) your M", iii) a fixed distance, iv) a random distance or whatever.
To balance it I would require the unit not to have used the fall back and shoot rule this turn. So you either fall back and shoot or move after shooting.

These first two point would be the bare minimum, necessary to let Tau be an army that works in 9th ed.
Then you can change markerlights (right now they are basically useless), weapon profiles, datasheets, strats, the free overwatch, drones protocols, etc.

Getting on to the objective isn't that much of an issue. imo.
Its surviving when you get there.

Step 1: Move all TAU models/units to Legends
Step 2: Move all Vespid units to Legends
Step 3: Reintroduce the likes of the Kroot Vultures back into the game
Step 4: Rebrand book as Codex: Kroot Mercenaries
Step 5: Profit!

Tau changes...

The Fire Warriors of the T’au Empire prefer to engage their enemies from a safe distance, cutting them down from afar with withering salvoes of pulse weapon fire. Their weakness has always been getting caught in melee, so the further away they can be from their targets, the better off they’ll be.

You’ll no doubt be pleased to learn, then, that the range of both of their primary weapons has been increased. The pulse carbine, for example, now has a very healthy reach of 24″ (a handy boost for the Pathfinders you picked up in Kill Team: Chalnath, too!).

With an enormous 36″ range, Fire Warriors armed with pulse rifles will be able to outrange the Troops units of almost any other faction, giving them a crucial early advantage as well as the ability to Rapid Fire up to 18″. What’s more, they now come with a handy pip of AP for some added punch.

Well, there's something at least.

Ooh wasn't expecting Ap-1 on the Rifles. Nice to see the updates, but still a little let down that the Carbines aren't Assault 3, at the moment I think they're still not as good as the Rifle.

Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.

So they've managed to make the gap between Carbines and Rifles even greater?

....

If they continue to be priced the same I don't much see the use for Carbines.

 Esmer wrote:
If they continue to be priced the same I don't much see the use for Carbines.

Carbines used to have pinning.

They could do something with that-say, for each wound inflicted (before saves) reduce the target's movement by 1", to a max of 3" or something.

I'm a non-Tau player, so please correct me if I suggest stuff thats already a thing or is just plain dumb.

- Kroot generally get a melee buff, and cover bonuses similar to Ork Kommandos.

- Give the non-auxiliary units something to do in most phases. Some form of JSJ for suits and tanks, Carbines to count as pistols in melee, etc.

- Other auxiliaries to cover the rest of the gaps. Maybe some floating psyker alien brains that hand out defensive buffs and deny enemy powers or something.

Bit of an odd choice with the carbine, if they remain the same cost as the rifle I don't really think that'll bring life back into them other than being the pathfinder desperation option. Hopefully they get a stratagem or some situational targeting stat tweak to give them 1 shot at D2 or some revised version of pinning for them remembering to use the grenade launcher.


edit: I'm an idiot that forgot about pulse accelerator drones that makes this a 2 shot version of the old pulse rifle... That's still a pretty clunky way of using them though

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.

It doesn't address the faction's underlying problems in 9th, but it does address a common complaint about Tau vs Primaris weapons. Now the basic Tau infantry rifle has the same AP, damage, and number of shots as a bolt rifle, but more strength and range. Pulse Rifles are now better than bolt rifles. That at least feels right. Wonder what they do with Pulse Blasters.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Not sure how this improves the way they'll operate in 9th edition. Increased range isn't quite what Tau need on a shrinking game board.

It doesn't address the faction's underlying problems in 9th, but it does address a common complaint about Tau vs Primaris weapons. Now the basic Tau infantry rifle has the same AP, damage, and number of shots as a bolt rifle, but more strength and range. Pulse Rifles are now better than bolt rifles. That at least feels right. Wonder what they do with Pulse Blasters.

My bet is that the ranges as a whole will go to 18/12/6 and that the 6" profile will be D2

*Cries in Necron "superior advanced technology"*

'More damage! That's sure to fix it!'

Not sure this will improve how they operate? 18" rapid fire pulse rifles could be scary as feth with the inevitable boosts to shooting they will have access too.

Also, I disagree with fall back and shoot as an army wide rule, your whole army already gets free overwatch, it's one of the other really.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Not sure this will improve how they operate? 18" rapid fire pulse rifles could be scary as feth with the inevitable boosts to shooting they will have access too.

Also, I disagree with fall back and shoot as an army wide rule, your whole army already gets free overwatch, it's one of the other really.

You new to this game?
What the army has NOW isn't necessarily the same as what it'll have in a new version of the codex.
Or even what it'll have next week.

Besides, if army wide free overwatch was that great you'd have heard much bitching about it (from people facing Tau).
Instead all you hear from just about everyone is how unplayable Tau are.

Interesting that Pulse Rifles went up to 36" range, with the Bor'Kan sept you can also get a 6" bonus to rapid fire weapons, making for a total range of 42", with rapid fire at 21".

A 90 point 10 man Fire Warrior squad could put out 30x S5 AP -1 shots at 21" if they have a Fireblade Cadre standing near them. Step in the right direction for people who love ANIME but also want to play IG style.

Pretty sure that Bor'kan is going to lose its bonus range.

Everyone's talked a lot about the specifics for the Tau themselves, but what I would love to see for the Tau, even if they don't get their own codex (which they should in the vein of Harlequins), is something Kroot centric.

With they way codices have been going in 9th, Kroot will likely not get the <Core> Keyword which means they will be out some of the few benefits they actually can still get (like the Ethereal Aura and buffs). Kroot are already barely scraping by as it is, and with the chance of new models being very small, there are still a few things that could be done with what they have.

1. Bring back the Knarlocs: FW made these before, it's not strange to think they could bring this line back. Even if it's not in plastic, just having them available to purchase and no longer being Legendary would be huge. If they stay roughly as strong as they are now, the Knarloc riders are a solid melee option and they Greater Knarloc is very strong for its points cost. I don't think Tau themselves should have much melee, but the Kroot can and should fill that role for them.

2. Kroot HQ: Make Shapers HQ units, OR even better, make a "new" unit that uses the same profile as the Shaper with some stat/ability changes to be an HQ unit. No new model needed, though GW could do that and also milk this with a limited edition promo model; they love that kind of thing, and for something like this, yeah I'd buy it. Maybe they could take trophy weapons from other factions would could lead to some cool conversations?

3. Improve Kroot utility: Fix the wording on the Hidden Hunters stratagem to make it good (in response to being shot, not at start of phase). If we get a new HQ, some kind of new buff from them. Add a few new stratagems, at least one melee focused one for Carnivores. Make a "Sept" for the Kroot that doesn't effect Tau units just like the Septs don't effect Kroot.

3.5 Food Buffs: Each Kroot unit can select a pregame buff based on the food they most commonly consume and are "Shaping" into. This could be done for "free" buy giving them a general points hike, or, better yet, keep the points low and make these optional for point increases. Since GW like's their D6's for randomization, I'll list 6 potential options: 1) Psyker Powers: The unit can manifest / deny 1. It knows Smite and a custom Kroot one, likely a stealthy/defense buff (though I would love a whole Kroot Psychic table). 2) Ork Ferocity: +1 A and +1 Advance/Charge. 3) Astartes Resilience: +1 T, 6+ FNP. 4) Human Tenacity: +1 Ld, +1 BS if remained stationary. 5) Eldar Alacrity: +1 M, +1 WS. 6) Beastial Nature: +1M, +1 S, +1 T, +1 A, +1 W. This unit must always move at maximum speed to the nearest enemy and must attempt to charge it if possible. This unit may not shoot.

Lore wise, Kroot don't feed on Tau, Necrons (they only made that mistake once), Tyranids, or Chaos, so I didn't list anything for them.

4. Krootsade Support: Kind of like what I said in 3.5, there is so much potential customizability with the Kroot and if we get it nowhere else, we should at least get it in Crusade.