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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Kaied wrote:"Buffing" your enemy's save makes it a terrible weapon, right? That's the point, it just makes it worse than using an AP0 weapon. Instead of "Power Creep" and adding more AP to everything, do the opposite on what are supposed to be weak weapons anyway.

I think I dislike it mostly because it's counter-intuitive. Sure, you technically unlock more gradiations of AP, but explaining to a newbie that their guns are so not lethal that they actually make enemies more likely to survive than usual seems likely to result in both confusion and disappointment. Sort of the opposite of a power fantasy there. Plus, you run into that weird area where an AP +1 weapon against a marine in cover is actually no more effective than an AP0 weapon (he's rolling a 2+ either way), so presumably the lower cost of an AP+1 option actually makes it more powerful in terms of cost-effectiveness.

So the whole thing strikes me as a kind of awkward fix to a pretty straight-forward problem. Lethality is a bit too high. Some units have a bit more AP than they probably warrant. We can pretty much just undo a lot of the power boosts various units/weapons have gotten in the last few years and probably land in an alright place.

SergentSilver wrote:
I don't see any reason a weapon shooting at you should make your armor better than it not shooting at you unless it's some kind of buff gun. What they should do is fix their system and stop limiting themselves to D6. At this point, D10 would be more appropriate and allow far better variance in stat lines to compensate for perceived differences in weapons.

Or just change everything into massive numbers like KT and WC to allow more nuance in the stats, even if it ends up balancing out roughly the same anyway. (This is semi-sarcastic, since the D6 limiter means that both Armor and AP would have to remain unchanged with the way they currently work.)

*Breaks out the stick used to beat dead horses*
Easier solution: Just back off on the extra pip of AP a bunch of ranged weapons have been getting. So pulse rifles and bolt rifles (and bolters) can go back to AP0. Reconsider whether or not heavy bolters, splinter cannons, etc. need to be D2. Make scatbikes 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes again. Fiddle with the points of 2W marines so that their cost makes sense in a game without all the anti-marine power creep we've been seeing. Anyone with an old version of their faction's codex can pretty well tell you what form the game's lethality creep has taken. What if we just ctrl + z a lot of those from the last few editions?
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





GW could go a long way to further granularize the game by increasing the max str of most tier 1 weapons to str 16 in order to wound on 2s against the tier 1 toughness of 8,
and then scale everything else up in terms of str.

This would also present a good opportunity to get rid of degrading profiles altogether and just have a lesser profile that is consistent.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/04/12 02:06:22


 
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Western Australia

The lore aspect is a big motivator for me, and I've long-thought that bolt weapons currently get a raw deal. They're supposed to be terrifying weapons – the mightiest small arms in the Imperium, tended to dotingly by master artificers and techpriests, revered as holy emblems, yada yada.

I think bolt weapons need a bigger boost in power, cost and general uniqueness than just AP1. While AP1 would be a good start (and makes sense lore-wise, as stated earlier), I also think they should come with +1 Strength, +1 (or D3) Damage, or a chance of extra mortal wounds.

My preference for a standard boltgun statline would be S4, AP1, Damage 2. Personally, it makes more sense to represent a bolt's internal explosion as extra Damage rather than extra Strength (or by adding more MWs to the game) – first you get the impact from a high-velocity/calibre round (similar to a modern light cannon shell), then upon penetration its delayed explosion pulverises internal organs, ruptures vessels, causes systemic hydrostatic shock, etc. This would give bolt weapons a bit more utility and dynamicism against MEQ or tougher units.. which is exactly what occurred during the Horus Heresy, so fluff points there. Extra damage would also set bolt weapons aside from other basic infantry weapon statlines without infringing on pulse weapons or similar, and would give them a bit extra oomph against the big, scary monsters they're often deployed against in the lore. D3 damage could also achieve that in a way that's both more dynamic and clunky. Heavy bolters could potentially get +1 Damage as well (making them premier anti-Gravis/Custodes weapons), but IMO that's not necessary.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/04/23 06:17:00




"Authoritarian dogmata are the means by which one breeds a submissive slave, not a thinking, fighting soldier of humanity."
- Field-Major Decker, 14th Desert Rifles

 
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





Whenever they get around to changing all the profiles, giving ap1 on all bolters and Grey Knights a ThousandSons equivalent called a Psy-Stormbolter, with ap2.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Why should Grey Knights get AP-2 bolters? Just make their stormbolters AP-1 as well. That’d be enough.

TSons already have AP-2 bolters. There’s no need to change them.
   
Made in us
Neophyte undergoing Ritual of Detestation





Jarms48 wrote:
Why should Grey Knights get AP-2 bolters? Just make their stormbolters AP-1 as well. That’d be enough.

TSons already have AP-2 bolters. There’s no need to change them.


Tsons keep the ap2
GK have had "Psybolt Ammunition" equipment before, and it's in a weird place right now. Giving them and TSons ap2 on their bolters stands them apart from the other marines in their own regard.
All relative point costs should be accurate, of course

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/17 12:36:57


 
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






 Just_Breathe wrote:
Jarms48 wrote:
Why should Grey Knights get AP-2 bolters? Just make their stormbolters AP-1 as well. That’d be enough.

TSons already have AP-2 bolters. There’s no need to change them.


Tsons keep the ap2
GK have had "Psybolt Ammunition" equipment before, and it's in a weird place right now. Giving them and TSons ap2 on their bolters stands them apart from the other marines in their own regard.
All relative point costs should be accurate, of course


Yeah, but that Psybolt Ammunition upgrade that you could take in 5th only increased the strength characteristic of that weapon's attack by 1, not increasing the AP capability. I don't think there should be too much overlap into what other armies might have, especially when GK already are sporting force weapons and more shots per guy.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Honestly, I've considered using the GK rules (possibly with imperial allies) along with Thousand Sons models in the past when GK felt like they were better at the Sons' gimmick than the Sons themselves. Giving GK inferno bolts (which have already been made less special by AP creep) wouldn't help with that.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Ultramarine Tactical Marine



Alaska

Wyldhunt wrote:
Kaied wrote:"Buffing" your enemy's save makes it a terrible weapon, right? That's the point, it just makes it worse than using an AP0 weapon. Instead of "Power Creep" and adding more AP to everything, do the opposite on what are supposed to be weak weapons anyway.

I think I dislike it mostly because it's counter-intuitive. Sure, you technically unlock more gradiations of AP, but explaining to a newbie that their guns are so not lethal that they actually make enemies more likely to survive than usual seems likely to result in both confusion and disappointment. Sort of the opposite of a power fantasy there. Plus, you run into that weird area where an AP +1 weapon against a marine in cover is actually no more effective than an AP0 weapon (he's rolling a 2+ either way), so presumably the lower cost of an AP+1 option actually makes it more powerful in terms of cost-effectiveness.

So the whole thing strikes me as a kind of awkward fix to a pretty straight-forward problem. Lethality is a bit too high. Some units have a bit more AP than they probably warrant. We can pretty much just undo a lot of the power boosts various units/weapons have gotten in the last few years and probably land in an alright place.

SergentSilver wrote:
I don't see any reason a weapon shooting at you should make your armor better than it not shooting at you unless it's some kind of buff gun. What they should do is fix their system and stop limiting themselves to D6. At this point, D10 would be more appropriate and allow far better variance in stat lines to compensate for perceived differences in weapons.

Or just change everything into massive numbers like KT and WC to allow more nuance in the stats, even if it ends up balancing out roughly the same anyway. (This is semi-sarcastic, since the D6 limiter means that both Armor and AP would have to remain unchanged with the way they currently work.)


*Breaks out the stick used to beat dead horses*
Easier solution: Just back off on the extra pip of AP a bunch of ranged weapons have been getting. So pulse rifles and bolt rifles (and bolters) can go back to AP0. Reconsider whether or not heavy bolters, splinter cannons, etc. need to be D2. Make scatbikes 1 heavy weapon per 3 bikes again. Fiddle with the points of 2W marines so that their cost makes sense in a game without all the anti-marine power creep we've been seeing. Anyone with an old version of their faction's codex can pretty well tell you what form the game's lethality creep has taken. What if we just ctrl + z a lot of those from the last few editions?


I have long thought that moving to a D10 AND making things a significant increase in points would be the best way to get granularity. But neither will happen any time soon, points increase would be most likely before the dice change if either were to happen. I think Wyldhunt has the best and most obvious starting point. As someone having old codices of multiple factions back to 3rd edition, (to me at least) the power creep stands out like a pink elephant....playing a trombone.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




no they shouldn't
AP is already way too common, and the game is already way too lethal as it is.
we don't need more small arms becoming better at destroying tanks and killing monsters.
   
 
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