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Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
And 4+ was when saves usually started mattering, not 3+. Since most small arms fire was AP5, you doubled your resilience against it compared to a 5+ save.

Well, yes and no. I started playing in 5th when most cover saves were a 4+. My craftworlders were squishy enough that I generally tried to keep them in cover as much as I could. So my dire avengers technically got their armor saves against my opponent's AP5 basic rifles, but they generally also had a 4+ cover save that made the 4+ armor save kind of moot. But you're right; 4+ armor was nice enough. My hawks were certainly glad they got saves against bolters after deepstriking in.
   
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Aus

Hmmm how about a hybrid system?

Weapon AP lower than armour? Normal save. Weapon AP matches armour? -1 save.
Weapon AP higher? No save.

But then you're looking at needing something like cover saves again...
   
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 RustyNumber wrote:
Hmmm how about a hybrid system?

Weapon AP lower than armour? Normal save. Weapon AP matches armour? -1 save.
Weapon AP higher? No save.

But then you're looking at needing something like cover saves again...
That's what Mez did in Prohammer.

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 RustyNumber wrote:
Hmmm how about a hybrid system?

Weapon AP lower than armour? Normal save. Weapon AP matches armour? -1 save.
Weapon AP higher? No save.

But then you're looking at needing something like cover saves again...

Don't like it on paper. Under that system, power armor is completely unphased by weapons that are paying for better-than-usual AP. So a heavy flamer or autocannon (AP4) can partially punch through the armor on a swooping hawk or necron warrior (who in turn are paying points to have 4+ saves), but a marine with a 3+ save isn't affected at all. Compare that to the current system where player A pays points for power armor, player B pays points for AP, and both of those values impact what number the marine saves on. Autocannons are still good at punching through armor, but power armor is still better at defending against autocannons than flakk jackets and carapace.

You'd also end up making some anti-marine weapons pretty bad against marines. Howling Banshees are a squad full of power swords (AP3) that are currently pretty meh at hurting their primary target: space marines. Under the proposed system, marines would go from having a 6+ save against banshees to a 4+ save. Ditto inferno bolts for thousand sons, dark reaper launchers, etc. You could theoretically change power swords to be AP2 instead, but then you're making changes to fix the problems created by your changes right out the gate.

The only problem I see with the current AP system is that they've given AP-1 to a few too many things.
   
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Aus

I guess there's two discussions here - How is AP in the game right now?

and

How is AP best represented on the tabletop at all?

After all the game got along fine with the old AP system for years, albeit with everything balanced around it. But the ability to modify armour instead of a binary system feels more satisfying, though it does lead to the unrealistic "My Heavy Flamer DEGRADES your super heavy tank armour a little bit more than a pistol!"
   
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If i was game designer for a day, the way i would do it, is the following

Prohammer AP system
AP higher then armor save, you get your save
AP lower then armor save, you dont get a save
AP = Armor save, you get save -1

Then to help with some weapons i would then start giving out a lot more weapons with Rending (x) with X being the AP value if you roll a 6 to hit.
Like a heavy bolter would be rending 3, roll a 6, you get a AP 3 bolter shot.
Chain weapons would be rending 3
Power swords would be rending 2

That way having a rending x system would give you more options to balance weapons. Boltguns under performing? Give it rending 3, oh thats to strong? ok rending 4 now? Yeah that feels better. Lasrifles are fine, but multi las make it rending 4.

I would also be a lot more generous with rending in melee over ranged, to give melee a bigger inceptive to be used.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





In my 8th ed redesign (see lower down the page), i separated AP into 'weight classes'. AP, AM, and TK.


AP - ANTI PERSONNEL (X)
Weapons with this rule subtract the value in parentheses from any Saving throws made by the target if it doesn't have the TITANIC, VEHICLE, or MONSTER keyword.

AM - ANTI MATERIEL (X)
Weapons with this rule subtract the value in parentheses from any Saving throws made by the target unless it has the TITANIC keyword.

TK - TITAN-KILLER (X)
Weapons with this rule subtract the value in parentheses from any saving throws made by the target.


It gives you 3 separate AP design spaces and means that you can balance infantry weapons more easily and means you probably don't need massive Wound scaling on superheavies, because they're going to be pretty tough against AM weapons like missile launchers.

This then also means weapon damage is more controlled, as you don't need to scale it as much.





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 00:35:34


   
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@Hellebore:
I kind of like that. So you can have weapons that are good at penetrating personal armor, but aren't really large, powerful, etc. enough to have that armor piercing capability carry over against tanks.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
@Hellebore:
I kind of like that. So you can have weapons that are good at penetrating personal armor, but aren't really large, powerful, etc. enough to have that armor piercing capability carry over against tanks.



Yeah, it allows you to reflect different scales without changing dice. It means a 4+ save on a tank is different to a 4+ save on infantry.

It puts titans on top and means even 6s wounding everything won't cause as many issues.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/24 06:48:11


   
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 JNAProductions wrote:
 RustyNumber wrote:
Hmmm how about a hybrid system?

Weapon AP lower than armour? Normal save. Weapon AP matches armour? -1 save.
Weapon AP higher? No save.

But then you're looking at needing something like cover saves again...
That's what Mez did in Prohammer.


Ya'll rang?

Yes - it works so much better this way. Across the board it's a huge buff to survivability, albeit some benefit from it more than others. We've found it helps get the unit pricing in a better place too. Terminators (for example) always felt way over priced back in the 3rd/4th era (less so in 6th/7th, but still somewhat), since most armies could usually stack enough AP2 weapons that it would cut through terminators pretty quick. That Sv 2+ going to 3+ vs an AP2 weapon makes a big difference (still outta luck vs. AP1 melta, but that makes sense).

The old system was such a better thematic representation of what was going on. Marines vs. lower power / low AP weapons got their full armor save most of the time. Volume of fire (you're going to roll 1's and 2's) was more of the concern than worrying about the AP of the weapon. Likewise, most "advanced" basic weaponry (bolters, shurikens, Tau pulse rifles, etc.) punched through "weak" armor (5+/6+) as you would expect.

For lowered armor armies, the old cover save system works a heck of a lot better for survivability too. Hard cover giving a 4+ cover save (effectively invulnerable), with the ability to Go to Ground and get a +1 on top of that is pretty juicy. Greatly diminished need for all the invulnerable saves getting tossed around.

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Check out ProHammer: Classic - An Awesomely Unified Ruleset for 3rd - 7th Edition 40K... for retro 40k feels!
 
   
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Italy

Terminators felt overpriced in 3rd/4th because at 1W they used to die like flies vs AP-trash weapons with high rate of fire. They might also pay additional points for the shield to get an invuln they never benefit from when targeted by such weapons.

AP2 weapons were typically expensive and not really spammable. Invulns worked against those.

 
   
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I'm pretty sure most of the old AP5 factions basic weapons are becoming AP-1 now. Shurikens, pulse rifles, galvanic rifles, etc.

I don't see much of an issue for bolters to become AP-1.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/31 00:15:04


 
   
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Italy

Then all former AP5 weapons need to be AP-1. My former AP5 ork guns are still all AP0 base, including the S5 ones. But also there won't be any purpose in fielding primaris bolter guys then, unless increasing their AP as well.

And then all the former AP4 weapons would feel pointless at just AP-1 (example, Heavy Bolters) and need to be AP-2. And then all former AP3 would feel pointless at just AP-2, etc...

Bolters getting AP-1 for 1-2 turns and flat AP-1 for the primaris version is the best solution IMHO. Alternatively they should be AP0 the entire game, like pretty much all non SM bolters.

Flat AP-1 is the AP of weapons such Heavy Bolters or Autocannons. Do we really want massed AP-1 on basic bolter guys and transports? Note that along with bolters also storm bolters, hurricane bolters, etc... would be buffed to AP-1.

A couple of armies that are supposed to be master of shooting getting flat AP-1 on their grunts shouldn't be the excuse to make AP-1 as the basic AP of other troops.

 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
Then all former AP5 weapons need to be AP-1. My former AP5 ork guns are still all AP0 base, including the S5 ones. But also there won't be any purpose in fielding primaris bolter guys then, unless increasing their AP as well.

It almost sounds like the marine faction is crowded with redundant data sheets that could be condensed down or something. >_> Maybe by just fusing tacticals and intercessors together.

Do we really want massed AP-1 on basic bolter guys and transports? Note that along with bolters also storm bolters, hurricane bolters, etc... would be buffed to AP-1.

A couple of armies that are supposed to be master of shooting getting flat AP-1 on their grunts shouldn't be the excuse to make AP-1 as the basic AP of other troops.

Personally, I kind of want the lethality of the game to go down a bit; I'd rather take some AP away from some units rather than adding it to more units. That said, I do think AP-1 is justifiable on marines (especially if they lose doctrines) if you design their faction as powerful-but-few-in-number rather than treating them as middle of the road guys.

That's probably poorly phrased. It's late here. Basically I think there are reasonable ways to make AP-1 bolters work, but I'll generally lean in favor of design choices that reduce lethality rather than increase it.
   
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Fusing Marine profiles would alleviate the issue a lot. I don't think anyone is gonna complain if all Bolt Pistols had AP-1, really.
   
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Bolters clearly should be AP-1 when looking to all others basic weapons of other codexes, even Kroots have a -1 wood rifle.

But oldmarines must be Primaris-1 for obvious sale reasons, so the bolter is stuck to AP-
   
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The Deer Hunter wrote:
Bolters clearly should be AP-1 when looking to all others basic weapons of other codexes, even Kroots have a -1 wood rifle.

But oldmarines must be Primaris-1 for obvious sale reasons, so the bolter is stuck to AP-


You mean the Shaper Kroot Rifle, which can only be taken on the Kroot's only HQ option? Nice bit of leaving out that detail to imply that the standard kroot rifle had become AP-1.

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 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Bolters clearly should be AP-1 when looking to all others basic weapons of other codexes, even Kroots have a -1 wood rifle.

But oldmarines must be Primaris-1 for obvious sale reasons, so the bolter is stuck to AP-


You mean the Shaper Kroot Rifle, which can only be taken on the Kroot's only HQ option? Nice bit of leaving out that detail to imply that the standard kroot rifle had become AP-1.


Sorry, I misread the line, it is the melee profile. The wood rifle has still the same statline of the main weapon of the Emperor’s Finest.

But it is the Primaris thing that prevent the bolter to be better.
   
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I just saw this thread. Are we really suggesting AVs for infantry? How about no. I mean, everything in the game is far too deadly as is, and I play Custodes. Plus,If we went by the Prohammer standard, I'd reckon that any force unable to take massive amounts of AP6 shooting would give me 2+ armor rolls on all my bikes. That would be wonderful.
   
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Well. It seems that shuriken catapults they gonna have a -1 AP besides the Shurkien abilities rule.



Dunno what it will be doing this Shurkien ability but if it does something like extra rend in 6's and given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1.

However, in 40K logic does not be a part of the game.
   
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Italy

psipso wrote:
Well. It seems that shuriken catapults they gonna have a -1 AP besides the Shurkien abilities rule.



Dunno what it will be doing this Shurkien ability but if it does something like extra rend in 6's and given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1.

However, in 40K logic does not be a part of the game.


SM have doctrines, which basically make bolters AP-1 for turn 2 and 3, the turns that matter the most. In fact thanks to doctrines primaris bolters are actually AP-2 for most of the game.

So in practise bolters are already AP-1 basically.

They aren't for chaos or sisters though. But making bolters flat AP-1 while getting rid of docrines entirely would be a massive nerf for marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/17 13:44:06


 
   
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 Blackie wrote:
psipso wrote:
Well. It seems that shuriken catapults they gonna have a -1 AP besides the Shurkien abilities rule.



Dunno what it will be doing this Shurkien ability but if it does something like extra rend in 6's and given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1.

However, in 40K logic does not be a part of the game.


SM have doctrines, which basically make bolters AP-1 for turn 2 and 3, the turns that matter the most. In fact thanks to doctrines primaris bolters are actually AP-2 for most of the game.

So in practise bolters are already AP-1 basically.

They aren't for chaos or sisters though. But making bolters flat AP-1 while getting rid of docrines entirely would be a massive nerf for marines.


Primaris Bolt rifles are already AP -1. I don't see it as a big problem as this is already happening.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/17 14:34:12


 
   
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psipso wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
psipso wrote:
Well. It seems that shuriken catapults they gonna have a -1 AP besides the Shurkien abilities rule.



Dunno what it will be doing this Shurkien ability but if it does something like extra rend in 6's and given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1.

However, in 40K logic does not be a part of the game.


SM have doctrines, which basically make bolters AP-1 for turn 2 and 3, the turns that matter the most. In fact thanks to doctrines primaris bolters are actually AP-2 for most of the game.

So in practise bolters are already AP-1 basically.

They aren't for chaos or sisters though. But making bolters flat AP-1 while getting rid of docrines entirely would be a massive nerf for marines.


Primaris Bolt rifles are already AP -1. I don't see it as a big problem as this is already happening.


That depends on how many points they are. A tac squad for 5 is 90 points, a intersessor squad for 5 is 100 points. those 2 points buy 6" range, ap-1, and +1 attack each. The tac squad can get their heavy or special weapon, assuming a grav cannon you add 4 str 5 ap-3 D1 vs 4+ armor or D2 vs armor 3+ shots into the tac squad for the same points. personally I could see ap-1 bolters at another point per tac marine go 95 points for 5 man tac squad.

Even better would be introducing devistator squads of primaris, merge the two. Just say the old marines had some weird primaris gene seed reaction where they got some of the extra gene bonuses but have some kind of space marine dwarfism and can still fit in old armor and old terminator armor, then boom merge profiles and let primaris intercessors buy a special or heavy weapon. Added bonus GW can hilariously troll chaos space marines and keep them 1 wound forever. (that is a joke for people who need that added note, please GW give CSm thier 2nd wound soon kthnx)

10000 points 7000
6000
5000
5000
2000
 
   
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psipso wrote:
...given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1...


Objectively on the quick translate table of weapons from 7th-8th AP5 = AP-, AP4 = AP-1, AP3 = AP-2, AP2 = AP-3, and AP1 = AP-4. Bolt rifles are AP-1 where boltguns aren't because they're boltguns with Kraken rounds (30" range/S4/AP4) (and the Stalker bolt rifle is a longer-ranged Vengeance round with its Heavy 1/AP3), not because AP5 translates to AP-1. Any further buffs on top of that are purely AP creep.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/17 17:40:50


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The Deer Hunter wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The Deer Hunter wrote:
Bolters clearly should be AP-1 when looking to all others basic weapons of other codexes, even Kroots have a -1 wood rifle.

But oldmarines must be Primaris-1 for obvious sale reasons, so the bolter is stuck to AP-


You mean the Shaper Kroot Rifle, which can only be taken on the Kroot's only HQ option? Nice bit of leaving out that detail to imply that the standard kroot rifle had become AP-1.


Sorry, I misread the line, it is the melee profile. The wood rifle has still the same statline of the main weapon of the Emperor’s Finest.

But it is the Primaris thing that prevent the bolter to be better.


Not just a wood rifle, it has t’au tech in there. Be glad it’s not s5 lol.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
psipso wrote:
...given that before shuriken catapults were, like bolters, AP5, I don't see any objective reasons to not make all the bolter guns also to be AP -1...


Objectively on the quick translate table of weapons from 7th-8th AP5 = AP-, AP4 = AP-1, AP3 = AP-2, AP2 = AP-3, and AP1 = AP-4. Bolt rifles are AP-1 where boltguns aren't because they're boltguns with Kraken rounds (30" range/S4/AP4) (and the Stalker bolt rifle is a longer-ranged Vengeance round with its Heavy 1/AP3), not because AP5 translates to AP-1. Any further buffs on top of that are purely AP creep.


Yes, I've also thought so. But it seems that GW is beginning to grant AP -1 to weapons that before were AP5 so I'm not so sure that this table is valid anymore. Although, to be fair, is just half of the picture because we haven't seen yet which points updates involves the buff to this kind of weapon.

I think that this confusion is a byproduct of what in this thread (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802980.page) is defined as "unable to have a cohesive design philosophy".

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/02/19 09:45:51


 
   
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I think GW needs to introduce AP+1 on the "weaker" weapons.
Not AP-1, AP+1. As in, Lasgun/Shotgun which is AP0 currently goes to AP+1, so a Marine saves on 2+(instead of 3+) and other Guard save on 4+(instead of 5+).

Also, instead of comparing a Rubric Marine, you should compare Sternguard Veteran to Tactical Marine. +2 points, but boltgun is AP-2, +1 Attack, +1 Leadership, and lots of weapon options. Troop with Melta-bomb and Objective Secured vs Elites without.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/03/08 03:29:42


 
   
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Kaied wrote:
I think GW needs to introduce AP+1 on the "weaker" weapons.
Not AP-1, AP+1. As in, Lasgun/Shotgun which is AP0 currently goes to AP+1, so a Marine saves on 2+(instead of 3+) and other Guard save on 4+(instead of 5+).

Also, instead of comparing a Rubric Marine, you should compare Sternguard Veteran to Tactical Marine. +2 points, but boltgun is AP-2, +1 Attack, +1 Leadership, and lots of weapon options. Troop with Melta-bomb and Objective Secured vs Elites without.


I don't see any reason a weapon shooting at you should make your armor better than it not shooting at you unless it's some kind of buff gun. What they should do is fix their system and stop limiting themselves to D6. At this point, D10 would be more appropriate and allow far better variance in stat lines to compensate for perceived differences in weapons.

Or just change everything into massive numbers like KT and WC to allow more nuance in the stats, even if it ends up balancing out roughly the same anyway. (This is semi-sarcastic, since the D6 limiter means that both Armor and AP would have to remain unchanged with the way they currently work.)
   
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 SergentSilver wrote:
Kaied wrote:
I think GW needs to introduce AP+1 on the "weaker" weapons.
Not AP-1, AP+1. As in, Lasgun/Shotgun which is AP0 currently goes to AP+1, so a Marine saves on 2+(instead of 3+) and other Guard save on 4+(instead of 5+).

Also, instead of comparing a Rubric Marine, you should compare Sternguard Veteran to Tactical Marine. +2 points, but boltgun is AP-2, +1 Attack, +1 Leadership, and lots of weapon options. Troop with Melta-bomb and Objective Secured vs Elites without.


I don't see any reason a weapon shooting at you should make your armor better than it not shooting at you unless it's some kind of buff gun.
"Buffing" your enemy's save makes it a terrible weapon, right? That's the point, it just makes it worse than using an AP0 weapon. Instead of "Power Creep" and adding more AP to everything, do the opposite on what are supposed to be weak weapons anyway.
   
 
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