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Is that not a bit of a dichotomy? Orbital speeds by definition are quite fast.

 Flinty wrote:
Is that not a bit of a dichotomy? Orbital speeds by definition are quite fast.

Is it? Drop pods are known to get shot down before they land, so I could see wave serpents being targets for the same guns that go after pods. Granted, serpents would presumably be better at taking evasive action.

I think the issue is that they need to do a gradual enough descent from orbit so they don’t turn their cargo into paste/explode/burn up. And by doing so are more vulnerable to anti-air/anti-space defenses. Versus dedicated landing craft designed to come in hot.

In my own head cannon at least. Difference between being good for a combat drop vs. just landing from space.

Back on the topic of titles/ranks for autarchs, the captains’ jobs from the SM crusade section would make a good template. And keeping them on the crusade system gives them a nice balancing aspect. Most of the benefits are out of game perks depending on the specialty for between mission army-organization stuff. The stuff in game works out to discounts on strats, but as having the title costs half a command point to start, having a restricted rebate is fair.

Do you know the difference between a Star Glaive and a Power Glaive, other than they are wielded by different persons?

Chaospling wrote:
Do you know the difference between a Star Glaive and a Power Glaive, other than they are wielded by different persons?

Do you mean technologically?

Culturally one is an exarch weapon of the dire avengers and the other is a weapon available to autarchs, which might make it a badge of office?

So to the Eldar the power glaive is a tool of khaine as the avenger, while a starglaive is a commander's weapon.

 Hellebore wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Do you know the difference between a Star Glaive and a Power Glaive, other than they are wielded by different persons?

Do you mean technologically?

Culturally one is an exarch weapon of the dire avengers and the other is a weapon available to autarchs, which might make it a badge of office?

So to the Eldar the power glaive is a tool of khaine as the avenger, while a starglaive is a commander's weapon.

Yes I meant technologically. They look very similar, but there are rule differences; so are they different "just because", or do we know anything about them, other than you've mentioned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how do you picture a Fire Dragon in a close combat against a Space Marine, Fire Warrior, Guardsman etc.?

I don't know of any official explanation for the differences. IIRC, the star glaive became a thing around the same time that autarchs (temporarily) lost the option to mix and match aspect equipment. So the glaive seemed like it was attempt to give autarchs a high strength beatstick weapon to make up for their loss of equipment synergies. However it works, it apparently gives the wielder -1 to hit, a penalty normally associated with sluggish weapons like power fists/klaws. So with that in mind, I soft-headcanon that star glaives somehow amplify the force used to swing them meaning attacks with them usually involve big "windups" that are relatively easy to dodge. Or maybe the -1 is there to reflect that they simply aren't used by any common aspects, so the autarch doesn't have the same level of training he does with a scorpion sword.

Regarding dragons in melee... First of all, they're still martial artists with superhuman speed/dexterity (WS 3+). Their guns look too bulky to make good clubs. In one of the Fantasy Flight RPG books, there are stats for dire avengers, and they apparently have combat knives. So put all that together, and I picture dragons pulling out knives (from... somewhere) and using their speed to go in for simple melee katas. But that's if they have to do melee. If they have some banshee/scorpion friends around, I imagine they mostly focus on defensive stances (lots of dodging, maybe blocking with their guns) and simply trying to make space for the melee aspects to sweep in and save them. That's the points of the bahzekain after all, right?

If they have the exarch power that lets them treat their fusion guns as pistols, I imagine them using dodges/blocks while they give ground to stand shoulder to shoulder (to avoid shooting each other), firing their fusion guns at pursuing enemies, and then using resulting disorder to apply pressure and keep the enemy from regaining momentum.

If the exarch has the burning fists power (no longer a thing), then I imagine them delivering a small number of devastating lava-fisted attacks to ensure the enemies they attack die in one hit. Basically applying fusion gun logic to their punches. If the exarch has a fire pike, I picture them using it like a club/quarterstaff. If there are flames on the battlefield (possibly from a dragon's breath flamer), I picture them trying to guide the melee into the flames where their armor gives them protection but more flammable enemies would burn; again mostly trying to disengage to make space for another volley of shots.

Basically, fire dragons are amazing martial artists, but they don't like relying on punches, kicks, and knives to kill things. So their melee style is mostly about creating space so they can use their extremely lethal guns. Some exarch powers and weapons seem to be designed to address dragon weaknesses (melee, hordes), so I kind of see exarchs who take those options as "watching over" their squad and focusing on the enemy's retaliation.

Something I will always come back to is that the aspects are total combat philosophies. More than any other army, the eldar shouldn't be taken at face value rules-wise, as they have so much philosophy and myth behind everything.

Reapers aren't the aspect of the reaper launcher, they're the aspect of Khaine as a destroyer, so their total fighting philosophy reflects that.


The best way I think about it is the scorpions and banshees both carry shuriken pistols, but they wouldn't use them the same way. Because their philosophies are different. I imagine the scorpions use a bit of gun fu and pistol whipping, striking quickly at close range.

The banshees on the other hand might synchronise their fire at a distance, using the combined volley as a shrieking wave they washes over their enemy as they close in.

That's me making things up based on the philosophies both aspects train in, but it illustrates the distinction between a weapon and a whole fighting style.

I imagine, as Wyldhunt mentions, the burning fist exarch power reflects the kind of melee attack the dragons make. They concentrate their rage into destructive fiery blows.

The reapers might train to use their launchers as heavy clubs, striking with single devastating blows rather than lots of quick ones.

There is so much more to the eldar and their aspects that GW have never bothered to explore because they've been too busy inventing justifications for different colours of marines.

IMO it would be great for the aspects to have distinct rules for their entire philosophy rather than just the aspect weapon they carry.

Some really basic ideas, using the current unit rules and adding the following:

Reapers: Strike at 2xS in melee
Dragons: strike at AP-2 in melee
Avengers: strike with +1A and use the shuriken special rule on their melee attacks
Hawks: Use their lasblaster rule on their melee attacks
Spiders: enemy suffer -2 to charge due to web weave
Scorpions: make 1 additional attack with their shuriken pistol in melee
Banshees: any unit they shoot that they charge in the same turn suffers -1Ld


Stuff like that. The exarchs show the more extreme end of an aspect's philosophy when they're channelling all their psychic might into combat, but IMO I think it would be worth the aspects also having the whole philosophy shown in their rules.

YMMV

Wyldhunt wrote:Regarding dragons in melee... First of all, they're still martial artists with superhuman speed/dexterity (WS 3+). Their guns look too bulky to make good clubs. In one of the Fantasy Flight RPG books, there are stats for dire avengers, and they apparently have combat knives. So put all that together, and I picture dragons pulling out knives (from... somewhere) and using their speed to go in for simple melee katas. But that's if they have to do melee. If they have some banshee/scorpion friends around, I imagine they mostly focus on defensive stances (lots of dodging, maybe blocking with their guns) and simply trying to make space for the melee aspects to sweep in and save them. That's the points of the bahzekain after all, right?

If they have the exarch power that lets them treat their fusion guns as pistols, I imagine them using dodges/blocks while they give ground to stand shoulder to shoulder (to avoid shooting each other), firing their fusion guns at pursuing enemies, and then using resulting disorder to apply pressure and keep the enemy from regaining momentum.

If the exarch has the burning fists power (no longer a thing), then I imagine them delivering a small number of devastating lava-fisted attacks to ensure the enemies they attack die in one hit. Basically applying fusion gun logic to their punches. If the exarch has a fire pike, I picture them using it like a club/quarterstaff. If there are flames on the battlefield (possibly from a dragon's breath flamer), I picture them trying to guide the melee into the flames where their armor gives them protection but more flammable enemies would burn; again mostly trying to disengage to make space for another volley of shots.

Basically, fire dragons are amazing martial artists, but they don't like relying on punches, kicks, and knives to kill things. So their melee style is mostly about creating space so they can use their extremely lethal guns. Some exarch powers and weapons seem to be designed to address dragon weaknesses (melee, hordes), so I kind of see exarchs who take those options as "watching over" their squad and focusing on the enemy's retaliation.

I must look up Fantasy Flight then!

Also, pretty funny about that Exarch power - I made up a rule, where Fusion guns are treated as pistols and I haven't heard about the Exarch rule. I also pictured them as fighting in pairs, where one Fire Dragon holds the enemy at a distance or have them pinned down, and the other one using his Fusion gun even in close combat.

I would love to implement more rules about fire and flamers to distinguish them from Dark Reapers.

Hellebore wrote:Something I will always come back to is that the aspects are total combat philosophies. More than any other army, the eldar shouldn't be taken at face value rules-wise, as they have so much philosophy and myth behind everything.

Reapers aren't the aspect of the reaper launcher, they're the aspect of Khaine as a destroyer, so their total fighting philosophy reflects that.


The best way I think about it is the scorpions and banshees both carry shuriken pistols, but they wouldn't use them the same way. Because their philosophies are different. I imagine the scorpions use a bit of gun fu and pistol whipping, striking quickly at close range.

The banshees on the other hand might synchronise their fire at a distance, using the combined volley as a shrieking wave they washes over their enemy as they close in.

That's me making things up based on the philosophies both aspects train in, but it illustrates the distinction between a weapon and a whole fighting style.

I imagine, as Wyldhunt mentions, the burning fist exarch power reflects the kind of melee attack the dragons make. They concentrate their rage into destructive fiery blows.

The reapers might train to use their launchers as heavy clubs, striking with single devastating blows rather than lots of quick ones.

There is so much more to the eldar and their aspects that GW have never bothered to explore because they've been too busy inventing justifications for different colours of marines.

IMO it would be great for the aspects to have distinct rules for their entire philosophy rather than just the aspect weapon they carry.

Some really basic ideas, using the current unit rules and adding the following:

Reapers: Strike at 2xS in melee
Dragons: strike at AP-2 in melee
Avengers: strike with +1A and use the shuriken special rule on their melee attacks
Hawks: Use their lasblaster rule on their melee attacks
Spiders: enemy suffer -2 to charge due to web weave
Scorpions: make 1 additional attack with their shuriken pistol in melee
Banshees: any unit they shoot that they charge in the same turn suffers -1Ld


Stuff like that. The exarchs show the more extreme end of an aspect's philosophy when they're channelling all their psychic might into combat, but IMO I think it would be worth the aspects also having the whole philosophy shown in their rules.

YMMV

I very much agree about the combat philosophies! I really want to dig in and understand the background so to creating a satisfying codex, where Aeldari fans really enjoy putting an army together.

Thank you very much for your input. The Dark Reapers would be the next Aspect Warriors, I would ask about; how they would fight in a close combat and how they differentiate from Fire Dragons.

Some times it feels like that GW themselves don't know exactly what they want, or what they have created - like they haven't thought it through.

For example Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are all about "Destruction" - well... Yes, every aspect of Khaine wants to see the destruction of their enemies. Okay but the Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers believe in the single powerful blow. Okay but what's the difference then? The difference is how they deliver the blow.

And then it comes down to implement the destruction practically. I think the difference between "Destruction", "infiltration" etc. is more interesting than how those Aspects are carried out on the battlefield - I think that the difference between how those Aspects are carried out should be defined by the shrines.

But that's another discussion - right now I'd like to hear, how you picture Dark Reapers in a close combat.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

So put all that together, and I picture dragons pulling out knives (from... somewhere) and using their speed to go in for simple melee katas.

Eldar Fire Dragons by Adrian Smith, from the Epic Space Marine/2nd edition 40K era. Notice the Fire Dragon in the back with a curved knife. The other now anachronistic detail is the chainsword held by the Exarch along with the firepike.

That was when Exarchs were independent characters with armoury access and not glorified sergeants.

But that's another discussion - right now I'd like to hear, how you picture Dark Reapers in a close combat.

Reapers are noted as having more cumbersome armor than other aspects due to the stabilizer systems that help them brace while they shoot. Plus, looking at the stabilizer(?) arms connected to their reaper launchers, it doesn't seem like they can set down their guns. The "heavy" rule on reaper launchers combined with their physical size suggests that they might be literally pretty heavy. We know that some eldar (mostly thinking death jesters) use grav suspensors to wield their heavy weapons more easily.

So take all those things together, and I imagine that reapers in melee might basically use stabilizers/grav suspensors to use their guns as a sort of club/tonfa/staff. Picture, if you will, a reaper unlocking his stabilizers and activating his suspensors to swing his hefty launcher with way more force and speed than he should be able to. Then, seeing an enemy swinging a sword at him, he activates his stabilizers to lock his arms and legs into a solid defensive stance, blocking the sword with his launcher while the worst of the force is dispersed by his stabilizers. I picture their attacks relying on attacks with big "windups" to make the most of their suspensor/stabilizer supports. These attacks have obvious disadvantages (easy to read and block/dodge), so the reapers would have to predict how their opponents will move in order to land their big, slow strikes; not unlike how they have to predict their opponent's movements when preparing to fire a ranged salvo.

Alternatively, I could see them pulling out knives to use in one hand while they use their stabilizers to perform one-handed blocks with their launchers. Which would make sense if their melee style emphasizes blocking and staying alive long enough for some friendly scorpions or banshees to rush in and save them. I imagine reapers are very aware that outrunning the enemy isn't likely a reliable option.

The exarch briefly had a power called something like the "Death Touch" where to-wound rolls of 6 did mortal wounds. That's the sort of mechanic that usually corresponds to extremely price attacks to critical spots, and the exarch's attacks otherwise being low strength with no AP kind of doubles down on this idea. So I picture a Death Touch exarch basically having an uncanny sense for where his opponent's most important nerve clusters, arteries, etc. are and utilizing katas designed to let him land an attack there. So where a banshee can get away with cutting off your arm, a reaper exarch is going for your jugular.