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Blindmage should play whatever way they feel is best for them. My personal confusion was that we repeatedly provided ways to overcome the extreme hurdles of the hobby, whether it's money, availability, or physical space. Every time it felt as if they weren't good for a different reason. At the end of the day, I don't know what this player wants. They said they don't want it to look cheap, but they can't afford to buy or create expensive looking table arenas. They want the full 40k experience, however it's too difficult to play the full 2k point game for various reasons.
As I've said, I understand. I played this hobby SUPER slummy for the first two years. Bed sheet with markers, poker chips, a furby or two, and Tonka trucks from the dollar store. No paint, just a book and about 30$ worth of crap from the dollar store.
Point is, that was over 5-6 years ago. You can't get into this hobby SUPER quick, without dumping a ton of cash. It's not like DnD where you just need a book, a pencil, a character sheet and the ability to toss dice/do math.
40k is really not an easy hobby to get into on the cheap cheap, if you want the "Real 40k experience". But I have been "playing" for 5 years, and I have yet to know what the hell that actually means. It's entirely subjective. I'd rather play on the bedsheet at the park with poker chips and beers than at a GW hobby store where some greasy nerd is trying to rules lecture me on the paint scheme of my painted dolls.
Seriously, tell us what the "Real 40k experience" is, and I'll devote time to helping you achieve that as cheaply as I can conceive of.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Blindmage should play whatever way they feel is best for them. My personal confusion was that we repeatedly provided ways to overcome the extreme hurdles of the hobby, whether it's money, availability, or physical space. Every time it felt as if they weren't good for a different reason. At the end of the day, I don't know what this player wants. They said they don't want it to look cheap, but they can't afford to buy or create expensive looking table arenas. They want the full 40k experience, however it's too difficult to play the full 2k point game for various reasons.
As I've said, I understand. I played this hobby SUPER slummy for the first two years. Bed sheet with markers, poker chips, a furby or two, and Tonka trucks from the dollar store. No paint, just a book and about 30$ worth of crap from the dollar store.
Point is, that was over 5-6 years ago. You can't get into this hobby SUPER quick, without dumping a ton of cash. It's not like DnD where you just need a book, a pencil, a character sheet and the ability to toss dice/do math.
40k is really not an easy hobby to get into on the cheap cheap, if you want the "Real 40k experience". But I have been "playing" for 5 years, and I have yet to know what the hell that actually means. It's entirely subjective. I'd rather play on the bedsheet at the park with poker chips and beers than at a GW hobby store where some greasy nerd is trying to rules lecture me on the paint scheme of my painted dolls.
Seriously, tell us what the "Real 40k experience" is, and I'll devote time to helping you achieve that as cheaply as I can conceive of.
Well, 18yrs ago when I started playing, $100 got you alot more. Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
The current starter boxes, if bought in order, apparently give two players a decent collection and set of terrain. That's great for giving everyone a marine army, lol But it's at least a start, as Marines cover so much.
Blndmage wrote: Well, 18yrs ago when I started playing, $100 got you alot more. Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
Then, I'll be frank, you should be focusing on things other than a hobby like 40k. If you're at that level then rent and food security are an issue, and there are cheaper ways to entertain yourself (like ttrpgs).
Blndmage wrote: Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
Why not play Kill Team instead then? It's a way better game at a small scale and $50 can get you an entire new army (or more, if you ebay bargain hunt for used models).
Hecaton wrote: To be a hobby there has to be some kind of creative activity, not just consumer behavior.
A hobby is something you engage in for recreation. It doesn't need to include 'creative activity' unless you want it to.
Aecus Decimus wrote: Why is something only worthwhile if it is validated as Official Warhammer 40k? I really don't understand this obsession some people have with officialness. If you enjoy playing not-40k then play not-40k, the fact that I don't consider not-40k to be a game of 40k shouldn't impact your enjoyment of not-40k one bit.
So, to recap -
You: Your way of playing isn't official, and I insist that you accept that!
Also you: Why are people so obsessed with what's official?
It might be time to just, I dunno, let people play the way they want and stop trying to browbeat them into accepting your definition of 'official'...
insaniak wrote: It might be time to just, I dunno, let people play the way they want and stop trying to browbeat them into accepting your definition of 'official'...
I don't recall going over to anyone's house/store and declaring my verdict on the officialness of their games. But if someone is going to say "you can play 40k for under $100" it's absolutely fair game to question whether or not the "game" they're describing is really a 40k game as anyone else would recognize it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: A hobby is something you engage in for recreation. It doesn't need to include 'creative activity' unless you want it to.
To be fair, mere consumption isn't recreation. Someone who just buys a copy of every 40k release but never even takes them out of the box isn't really engaging in the hobby, they're suffering from a compulsive buying problem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/17 05:20:21
Blndmage wrote: Well, 18yrs ago when I started playing, $100 got you alot more. Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
Then, I'll be frank, you should be focusing on things other than a hobby like 40k. If you're at that level then rent and food security are an issue, and there are cheaper ways to entertain yourself (like ttrpgs).
Hey, genius, I think they are. Hence $50/year in disposable income being a big deal.
Blndmage wrote: Well, 18yrs ago when I started playing, $100 got you alot more. Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
Then, I'll be frank, you should be focusing on things other than a hobby like 40k. If you're at that level then rent and food security are an issue, and there are cheaper ways to entertain yourself (like ttrpgs).
Hey, genius, I think they are. Hence $50/year in disposable income being a big deal.
JNAProductions wrote: She plays the game.
She builds models.
I’m not sure if she paints them, but I barely paint either.
So what about her is so threatening that you want her excluded from 40k?
To be a hobby there has to be some kind of creative activity, not just consumer behavior. For miniature wargaming in general, the more people just cleave to consumer behavior, the more the scene suffers.
So are you going to answer JNAs question?
Are you going to answer mine about how you've determined they aren't participating in the hobby?
Blndmage wrote: Well, 18yrs ago when I started playing, $100 got you alot more. Now however, if we can afford $50 a year for me to devote to 40k, it's a huge year.
Then, I'll be frank, you should be focusing on things other than a hobby like 40k. If you're at that level then rent and food security are an issue, and there are cheaper ways to entertain yourself (like ttrpgs).
Hey, genius, I think they are. Hence $50/year in disposable income being a big deal.
Except they aren't...?
Again, I have to ask how you're determining this.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/17 06:13:17
Dudeface wrote: I said people don't want a 8 or 6x4 sheet lying around, which was the initial suggestion, because it takes a lot of space and looks scruffy resting on a wall. You responded with:
Ah, see, the problem is you don't know what you're talking about. Quarter sheets of plywood are 2 foot by 4 foot, so you can stack three of them on top of each other and lean them against a wall.
Ahh you're such a savant that obvously you clearly knew I spent 7 years playing games in a boarded loft with a folding table and 3 2x4 sheets over the top, so this is just faux arrogance to assume what I do or do not know?
I've moved into a bigger house without the boarded loft, don't have a garage or basement, so at present I'd be stuck storing sheets of wood in view in my house somewhere, which I don't want. Call me house proud, but a tidy family home means more to me. At such time I start hosting games again I'll likely splash out on a gamemat folding table or something.
I'm gatekeeping because some people deserve to be gatekept.
Oh goody, they're not being abusive or neglectful to any minorities or other people, they don't hold controversial or morally unacceptable views, they need gatekeeping because they don't play how you like.
Aecus Decimus wrote: I don't recall going over to anyone's house/store and declaring my verdict on the officialness of their games.
Nobody said you did. You're doing it here, though.
To be fair, mere consumption isn't recreation.
Never heard of Retail Therapy, then?
Someone who just buys a copy of every 40k release but never even takes them out of the box isn't really engaging in the hobby, they're suffering from a compulsive buying problem.
Or they're just someone who likes collecting miniatures. Which isn't really any different to collecting spoons, or shoes, or bar coasters, or action figures, or toy cars, or any other of the myriad things that people collect without having a functional or creative use for them.
Either way, this thread seems to have wandered considerably off the original topic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/17 06:43:38
insaniak wrote: Nobody said you did. You're doing it here, though.
On a public discussion forum where they initiated the discussion by saying "you can play 40k for under $100". If someone wants to make that argument then they should expect to see the counter-argument that no, what you can buy for $100 isn't a real game of 40k.
Never heard of Retail Therapy, then?
I have. Buying a thing you're actually going to use and makes you happy is one thing, buying a ton of 40k models to pile up in the closet and never use is an example of incredibly unhealthy hoarding behavior and poor impulse control that often leads to financial problems. That kind of thing should not be viewed as legitimate participation in a hobby.
The point is that "40k game" is a concept that has meaning. If you play a game with Infinity miniatures, Battletech rules, and Star Wars fluff you aren't playing a game of 40k. And no amount of "I enjoy it" or "it's my table" will change that fact.
Whilr youre not wrong, this line of thinking gets awfully reductive awfully fast.
Anybody not strictly adhering to a RAW reading of the current edition, or anyone playing with a smattering of House rules (whether one or loads) in theit games in their games is now apparently no longer playing 40k. I think that's silly considering how open ended the game in meant to be.
What constitutes a 'game of 40k' is a bit more nebulous than I think.youre willing to consider.
I think it's fairer to think of 'a game of 40k' as an umbrella term rather than a hyper strict and stifling/suffocating interpretation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/17 12:19:43
How many people do you know who , went there is you have to do X to get Y, will do X+1? And how many do you know who would not do it. There is a reason why with stuff like table size, models counting as painted/unpainted people ask for minimums or if something is enough. Same way with army size, no one stops the over all population of w40k to play 2000pts games with less then 2000pts, but there aren't many people bringing 1500pts to such games.
That's irrelevant to the point Hecaton is making. Also, when it comes to table size it's not uncommon around here for people to use the old 6x4 size for 1500+ point games, because that's what clubs and stores often have. I don't think any of the stores or clubs near me went to the trouble of cutting down existing boards when the new minimum size was introduced. They have often acquired some of the minimum-size mats since the change, but it's not uncommon to play one game on a 6x4 one week, then on the minimum sized board the next.
To solve the problem just use adhesive tape, to delimit the table, the paper one is just fine. Then if one day we go back to the old measures, remove everything and go.
Phoenix Lord wrote: To solve the problem just use adhesive tape, to delimit the table, the paper one is just fine. Then if one day we go back to the old measures, remove everything and go.
Or just play on a normal 6x4 and reject the idea that table size should be dictated by the dimensions of GW's standard cardboard box. There's no "going back" and no problem to solve if you don't ever accept the absurdity of 9th edition minimum sizes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/10/17 07:28:47
Hecaton wrote: To be a hobby there has to be some kind of creative activity, not just consumer behavior.
A hobby is something you engage in for recreation. It doesn't need to include 'creative activity' unless you want it to.
Then it's not a hobby.
So playing board games isn't a hobby? Or playing sports? Or collecting...pretty much anything? There are dozens of other examples of hobbies that don't require any creativity.
So maybe, just maybe, you're utterly wrong on this.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So a standard sheet of Plywood or OTC is 8x4. That and two Saw horses is a regulation 2k table, and costs roughly 25-50$ at any decent constuction store. throw in 2 2x4x8s, and you can make borders for your tables. Those cost between 2-4 bucks. Free if you get em warped or tossed. It's not like it's hard to make a table to play standard 40k on. IT's actually cheaper than a set of models and a codex. And it was actually the first thing I made when I got into the hobby!
Lucky you have the space and ability (physically, monetarily, access to a vehicle, etc) to do so.
If you can't afford that you can't afford 40k. Also, you can get 2 quarter sheets of plywood cut at any hardware store, there's your 4 x 4.
You can play 40k for pretty cheap. Not with the official models, but if you use stand-ins and just buy the rules, dice, and a tape measure, you can play 40k for maybe $100.
It's not the same as playing with awesome terrain and the real models, but it's still 40k.
Don't be a gatekeeper.
You just mentioned price that is waaaaay above simple 8'x4' board
Space is biggest hurdle with bigger boards. Not price. Space is def an issue. I have foldable table to which put foamboards for gaming. 6'x4' works but as much I would prefer to have 8'x5'...Yeah that would require me to basically move house. Or throw away several shelves for clothes etc I have And go japanese style sleeping solution ;-)
Aecus Decimus wrote: But the claim was made that you can play 40k for $100 and the reality is that you can't. You can only play a miserable pseudo-game with dollar store army men and piles of trash.
My buddies 3d printer + Battlescribe/Whahapedia says you don't know what your talking about.
3d printer costs way more than 100$ though. Nor is resin cheap. Especially when you factor in terrain you need to play with as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/17 11:32:08
Table / play space does matter... but it's only one factor. I've played 10,000 points a side with fully painted armies on a large fully painted table at Warhammer World and had an all day blast. I've also played 40k in 40 minutes with half a dozen wrecked buildings and 500 points a side (or 200 if that's all the player had) on a bare school desk, and many points between the two. The table size does have an effect, but the players' attitude is what makes it fun. I count both my examples as "proper" 40k (the latter keeping the spirit of 40k but enabling a lunchtime game). One was more aesthetically pleasing than the other, but nor would I want to play at whw all day every day, fun as it was. As the priest anecdotally said to the minister, you play in your way and I'll play in His...." Have FUN whatever your play surface.... and please acknowledge that other people's different fun is still fun...
Blindmage, what faction do you play? Everyone is suggesting go killteam, and I don't know if that's possible for you. Also, do you have access to a local meta or are you having difficulty finding players at your preferred points range?
What about this hobby actually gives you the most pleasure?
Ahh you're such a savant that obvously you clearly knew I spent 7 years playing games in a boarded loft with a folding table and 3 2x4 sheets over the top, so this is just faux arrogance to assume what I do or do not know?
Given that you said that storing 3 quarter sheets of plywood took 6 feet by 4 feet of space, I can be pretty confident.
JNAProductions wrote: You can play 40k for pretty cheap. Not with the official models, but if you use stand-ins and just buy the rules, dice, and a tape measure, you can play 40k for maybe $100.
It's not the same as playing with awesome terrain and the real models, but it's still 40k.
Don't be a gatekeeper.
And you can get a 4 x 4 table (in the form of two quarter sheets of plywood) for like $20. $30 for a 6 x 4.
I'll gladly gatekeep people who won't do that.
But what if they don't want a honking big 6x4 sheet of plywood lying around their place because it looks scruffy? Just because someone can buy a cheap sheet of wood it doesn't mean its the right answer for someone.
Where you don't explicitly say you mean 3 x quarter sheets of wood, which I'm pretty sure is a made up measurement, given that sheets of wood are sold in many sizes and I've never seen them referred to as such.
Where you don't explicitly say you mean 3 x quarter sheets of wood, which I'm pretty sure is a made up measurement, given that sheets of wood are sold in many sizes and I've never seen them referred to as such.
A quarter sheet of plywood is a specific thing. A sheet of plywood is 8 feet by 4 feet. Each quarter sheet is 2 feet by 4 feet. If you go into a hardware store and ask for a "quarter sheet of plywood" that's what you're going to get.
Where you don't explicitly say you mean 3 x quarter sheets of wood, which I'm pretty sure is a made up measurement, given that sheets of wood are sold in many sizes and I've never seen them referred to as such.
A quarter sheet of plywood is a specific thing. A sheet of plywood is 8 feet by 4 feet. Each quarter sheet is 2 feet by 4 feet. If you go into a hardware store and ask for a "quarter sheet of plywood" that's what you're going to get.
Weird, I just go and either ask for the size I want or get it off a shelf. Maybe it's not a UK thing.
2022/10/17 18:43:01
Subject: Re:How important is table/play space size?
I have no interest in playing 40k on a smaller size than 8x4 or 6x4. The game suffers on a smaller board
What a bunch of nerds above. This is a dumb argument. You paint little dollies and put them on a table with christmas houses. Have fun with it. Blindmage doesnt even play according to the posts above so it doesn't matter enough to have an argument over it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/10/17 18:51:04
60PL 
12PL 
