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Celerior wrote:

Why librarians are useless:

Spoiler:

Your 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP2 gain nothing.
Your important 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP3 who you are defending with armor of contempt gain nothing.
Your important 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP4 gain 66% resilience.
Your important 3+ marines targeted by Thousand Sons armor save negation gain 75% resilience (with the FNP against psychic), but they're probably mostly dying anyway.

So you think the unit gaining a 4+ invulnerable save is useless.... Ok, whatever.

I don't think the world at large thinks I'm wrong. Take a look at some lists from the World Team Championship (WTC):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUR4wpijNhg
Team America (at minutes 23 to 31) had the following vehicles:
-Chaos marines, 2 forgefiends.
-GSC, 2 ridgerunners.
-Grey Knights, 0 vehicles.
-Deathwatch, 1 land speeder, 1 storm speeder hailstrike.
-Custodes, 0 vehicles.
-Orks, 6 trukks, 3 big trakks.
-Aeldari, 5 vehicles (mostly firing indirectly) plus a wraithknight.
-Tyranids, no vehicles (lots of monsters, though).

I may yet be wrong, but I would point out that the two armies doing best right now are Eldar, who are great at keeping their tanks out of LOS, and GSC, who are basically all infantry. After that there's custodes, who are mainly rock hard infantry.

I'm just setting out my ideas here. I invite you to refute me. If you can explain to me why I'm underrating the lancer (Safety via range? Value via cheapness? Damage comparison with alternatives? Specific matchups? Situational examples?), I'll thank you for teaching me how to play better and try a lancer or three. I've seen it underperform in a number battle reports (including Art of War) and am really just following the leader on this one... but with math because it's what I do.

And if I've convinced you to give certain units another look with my points analysis, maybe you'll find some hidden gems that I'm overlooking.

I'm sorta hot on devastator squads right now, between relatively cheap per-wound costs and high damage output. I'm going to try them out, and figure out why I'm wrong. I'm guessing that if I'm wrong it's overwatch, and poor ability to get LOS. It may be a skill issue on my part, or maybe there's a big reason that I'm overlooking that I don't see Art of War ever mention them.

I will add that there are still reasons to bring vehicles, because there are some tools they bring which infantry usually don't: long range guns with mobility. But in the high terrain environment I've seen, such long range is usually less relevant than in 'true LOS' editions past.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

Celerior wrote:

Why librarians are useless:

Spoiler:

Your 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP2 gain nothing.
Your important 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP3 who you are defending with armor of contempt gain nothing.
Your important 3+ marines in cover targeted by AP4 gain 66% resilience.
Your important 3+ marines targeted by Thousand Sons armor save negation gain 75% resilience (with the FNP against psychic), but they're probably mostly dying anyway.

So you think the unit gaining a 4+ invulnerable save is useless.... Ok, whatever.

Not useless, but a procurement mistake. I'd recommend Perun's 1 hour 8 minute video on actual military procurement... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBQVR4epfBQ but the TL;DR concept I hope you'd get out of it is that while a 4++ is definitely super nice, by taking it you're:
a) Preventing that unit from taking a character which would make the squad's damage output more effective.
b) Preventing yourself from being able to afford another unit.
c) Providing a defensive buff that is only situational, ensuring that of all your squads, this is the one they will target with the small arms fire.
d) Taking a unit whose damage output is points-efficient and adding a hefty points tax to it, making it no longer as efficient.

If you like devestators you can check out SW Long Fangs. They can have even bigger squads and add a cyclone missile launcher terminator into it

I played vs BA and got my ass handed to me as GSC. BA librarian dreadnought took a play out of the 9th edition Ork codex and cast 'da jump' on some eradicators with meltaguns. That was really good vs me.

Thanks, Nilai. I will definitely give long fangs another look. Edit: I have done so and don't favor them. First, I don't think a termy leader can join them anymore. Second, the higher points cost hurts. Third, their benefit for standing still is worse than the benefit for devastators.
Though it may be a memeworthy list to take long fang squads as well as 3 devastator squads.

I tried devs in a big way in my most recent online (TTS) game. Both the plascannon devs and the grav cannon devs provided a lot of value. They won the game for me after I made a big mistake overcommitting too early elsewhere.

Compare both sorts of devs' damage output under various conditions with the unit of your choice against some of the following targets:
Necron lychguard. GSC aberrants. Various tanks. Knights. Shelaxi Hellbane. Custodes with & without the -1 damage strat.

In addition, the plascannon squad specifically punches ridiculously above its weight vs. a Necron warrior blob, especially one with a 5+ FNP.

Celerior wrote:
Thanks, Nilai. I will definitely give long fangs another look. Edit: I have done so and don't favor them. First, I don't think a termy leader can join them anymore.

Terminator wolf guard pack leader can, and he can have a heavy weapon.

Not saying it's efficient but you could take Long Fangs, Pack Leader, Iron Priest and Servitors all in one blob to get 7 plasma cannons and a cyclone plus a few extras, and play it in the gladius detachment to put bolter discipline on the priest.

 Insularum wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Thanks, Nilai. I will definitely give long fangs another look. Edit: I have done so and don't favor them. First, I don't think a termy leader can join them anymore.

Terminator wolf guard pack leader can, and he can have a heavy weapon.

Not saying it's efficient but you could take Long Fangs, Pack Leader, Iron Priest and Servitors all in one blob to get 7 plasma cannons and a cyclone plus a few extras, and play it in the gladius detachment to put bolter discipline on the priest.

Kull wahad! I wouldn't add the pack leader or the 6th long fang, and keep it to a 'slim' 290 points, but boy howdy, 6 plasma cannons with bolter discipline... That will on average just barely kill a 20-man warrior blob with cryptothralls in a single activation in tactical doctrine with oath whether you moved or not. For sure if you spend a CP to ignore cover. Hilarious, and significantly better and cheaper than the ubiquitous 10-man desolation squad (or any other unit I can think of) at that specific task. Alas that the unit is less effective against Lychguard, getting less shots at the smaller target and not being able to ignore their invul saves. Well, I know where to go if warrior bricks take over the meta!

After contemplating Celerior's thoughts, I kinda started thinking about an "Oops! All Infantry!" skew list.

IF Infantry Spam (2000 points)
Space Marines
Imperial Fists
Strike Force (2000 points)
Gladius Task Force


CHARACTER

Captain in Gravis Armour (120 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Master-crafted heavy bolt rifle
1x Master-crafted power weapon
• Enhancement: Bolter Discipline

Primaris Apothecary (65 points)
• 1x Absolvor bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Reductor pistol
• Enhancement: Artificer Armour

Primaris Lieutenant (75 points)
• 1x Master-crafted power weapon
1x Neo-volkite pistol
1x Storm Shield

Tor Garadon (100 points)
• 1x Artificer grav-gun
1x Hand of Defiance


BATTLELINE

Heavy Intercessor Squad (110 points)
• 1x Heavy Intercessor Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Heavy bolt rifle
• 4x Heavy Intercessor
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
3x Heavy bolt rifle
1x Heavy bolter


OTHER DATASHEETS

Aggressor Squad (220 points)
• 1x Aggressor Sergeant
• 1x Auto boltstorm gauntlets
1x Fragstorm grenade launcher
1x Power fist
• 5x Aggressor
• 5x Auto boltstorm gauntlets
5x Fragstorm grenade launcher
5x Power fist

Desolation Squad (340 points)
• 1x Desolation Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Castellan launcher
1x Close combat weapon
1x Superkrak rocket launcher
• 9x Desolation Marine
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Castellan launcher
9x Close combat weapon
9x Superkrak rocket launcher

Eradicator Squad (190 points)
• 1x Eradicator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Melta rifle
• 5x Eradicator
• 5x Bolt pistol
5x Close combat weapon
3x Melta rifle
2x Multi-melta

Hellblaster Squad (250 points)
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Inceptor Squad (115 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 2x Inceptor
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (115 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 2x Inceptor
• 2x Close combat weapon
2x Plasma exterminators

Infiltrator Squad (90 points)
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Helix Gauntlet
4x Marksman bolt carbine

Sternguard Veteran Squad (210 points)
• 1x Sternguard Veteran Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Sternguard bolt pistol
1x Sternguard bolt rifle
• 9x Sternguard Veteran
• 9x Close combat weapon
9x Sternguard bolt pistol
7x Sternguard bolt rifle
2x Sternguard heavy bolter

Captain with Aggressors, Tor with Erads, Apoth with Hellblasters, and Lieutenant with Sternguard. One Heavy squad to hold a backfield objective. Inceptors for deep striking firepower and mobility. Infiltrators for area denial. Deso for ranged firepower.

Thoughts?

tneva82 wrote:
Yet vehicles are the ones spammed.

So is entire world wrong and you are lone genius or are you in error? Which is more likely

As usual, any hastily formed statistical model, especially one limited to analysing offense and defense in a vacuum, is going to fail to produce a solid picture of actual reality. It explains what might be good, not what is, because the only thing that can explain what actually is good happens to be a couple thousand games against a variety of opponents.

MNOP,
I really like lethal hits on Eradicators, given that strength is their guns' biggest vulnerability against their favorite targets. OTOH, ignores cover when they already have AP4 might be wasted. It might be interesting to flip-flop Tor and the Captain's locations, depending on whether you're playing an opponent whose heavy armor has decent invul saves anyway, and ignore cover becomes handier on the aggressors.
I dislike the lieutenant with the sternguard. Lethal hits means you'll be rolling to wound less often, which means you'll be triggering dev. wounds less often. Consider character reassignment.

If my 5 big units were hellblasters, sternguard, eradicators, aggressors, and desolators, and I had 4 characters to assign them, I'd put:

-Lethal hits and maybe ignores cover in the aggressors who are often punching up at a higher toughness, so that's a good place for Tor Garadon.
- Extra shots (i.e. bolter discipline) on either the hellblasters, the sternguard, or the desolators. If it's on a lieutenant (and there's something to be said for that, because then bolter discipline triggers both lethal and sustained on a 5) then the hellblasters seem like a great choice.
- Strats on...hm. Who really wants to ignore cover and occasionally extra AP, might end up in assault? Maybe the sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can see an apothecary biologis on the Eradicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's decent play here for the heavy intercessors. Force an opponent to commit real force to wipe you off an objective for cheap, then pop out with a high damage unit and make them pay for committing.

Celerior wrote:
MNOP,
I really like lethal hits on Eradicators, given that strength is their guns' biggest vulnerability against their favorite targets. OTOH, ignores cover when they already have AP4 might be wasted. It might be interesting to flip-flop Tor and the Captain's locations, depending on whether you're playing an opponent whose heavy armor has decent invul saves anyway, and ignore cover becomes handier on the aggressors.
I dislike the lieutenant with the sternguard. Lethal hits means you'll be rolling to wound less often, which means you'll be triggering dev. wounds less often. Consider character reassignment.

If my 5 big units were hellblasters, sternguard, eradicators, aggressors, and desolators, and I had 4 characters to assign them, I'd put:

-Lethal hits and maybe ignores cover in the aggressors who are often punching up at a higher toughness, so that's a good place for Tor Garadon.
- Extra shots (i.e. bolter discipline) on either the hellblasters, the sternguard, or the desolators. If it's on a lieutenant (and there's something to be said for that, because then bolter discipline triggers both lethal and sustained on a 5) then the hellblasters seem like a great choice.
- Strats on...hm. Who really wants to ignore cover and occasionally extra AP, might end up in assault? Maybe the sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can see an apothecary biologis on the Eradicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's decent play here for the heavy intercessors. Force an opponent to commit real force to wipe you off an objective for cheap, then pop out with a high damage unit and make them pay for committing.

Oh, that is a great point. I am still getting used to all these triggering effects. I like the interplay of Tor + Erads and GravCap + Aggressors, the former especially since he is pretty solid for melee, bolstering the Erads there, which they don't have generally otherwise. Though I absolutely get what you are saying about the cover debuff for the Aggressors. I think the good thing there is I can just switch and see what works best.

I could toss the Lieutenant for a Libby, maybe giving those Sternguard a 4++? Not exactly synergy, but durability boost (in theory). Or, if the goal is durability, then maybe a second Apoth? This being an infantry-only list, protecting those key units seems worthwhile.

Sadly, I can't bring the Lieutenant over to the Desolators per his leader options. Such a shame!

So I've been playing on tabletop simulator, gotten in 3 games so far.

Here's the army concept I have in mind:
-Force my opponent to waste resources screening in all directions against a powerful deep strike or outflank.
-Have some skirmishing units that can run in and grab an objective or screen against deep strike with a decent amount of speed and OC.
-Have some punchy units which can follow up behind and zap anyone who emerges to hold objectives or screen, and new cheap skirmishers to take their place on the objective.
-Have a toolbox for specific threats like GSC or Guard artillery.

Things I'm experimenting with that I don't see talked about that much in the meta:
Scout bikers (a 1st turn charge threat against an army like IG artillery spam as well as a cheap skirmisher)
Librarian Dreadnought (blood angels unit)
Attack bikes (cheap skirmisher)
Scout snipers
Exaction squads (ridiculously cheap)
Hellblasters with a lieutenant and bolter discipline.
Devastator squads with grav or plasma.
Infernus squad, 10 men
Exaction Squads (Custodes/knights players take them because they're great and cheap, everyone else should too)

Maybe someone will take a second look at some of those data slates and see some value in them, or just mock me roundly again (probably over the infernus marines which I'm about to try out and may flop, but I'm sick of taking useless interceptor marines for fear of GSC)

Celerior wrote:
MNOP,
I really like lethal hits on Eradicators, given that strength is their guns' biggest vulnerability against their favorite targets. OTOH, ignores cover when they already have AP4 might be wasted. It might be interesting to flip-flop Tor and the Captain's locations, depending on whether you're playing an opponent whose heavy armor has decent invul saves anyway, and ignore cover becomes handier on the aggressors.
I dislike the lieutenant with the sternguard. Lethal hits means you'll be rolling to wound less often, which means you'll be triggering dev. wounds less often. Consider character reassignment.

If my 5 big units were hellblasters, sternguard, eradicators, aggressors, and desolators, and I had 4 characters to assign them, I'd put:

-Lethal hits and maybe ignores cover in the aggressors who are often punching up at a higher toughness, so that's a good place for Tor Garadon.
- Extra shots (i.e. bolter discipline) on either the hellblasters, the sternguard, or the desolators. If it's on a lieutenant (and there's something to be said for that, because then bolter discipline triggers both lethal and sustained on a 5) then the hellblasters seem like a great choice.
- Strats on...hm. Who really wants to ignore cover and occasionally extra AP, might end up in assault? Maybe the sternguard?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can see an apothecary biologis on the Eradicators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think there's decent play here for the heavy intercessors. Force an opponent to commit real force to wipe you off an objective for cheap, then pop out with a high damage unit and make them pay for committing.

What character gives lethal hit buff? I thought we only had sustain hits.

Edit: I remember wrongly. It is the other way around. Where do we get sustain hits from? Is it "only" bolter disiplinen? Eradicators re-rolling for critical hits on 5+ sounds strong.

Edit 2: Do any other SM unit innate re-roll outside of oath of moment?

This seems the best place to start the last game I played was 11 years ago when 6th Edition came out and we stopped playing.

Some friends have picked up 10th edition and I am seeing what I can build using my old models and the starter set.

I realise Tactical and Devastator Squads have been surpassed by Erradicators, Desolation and other new stuff but not planning to buy into anything beyond the starter (for now).

Any suggestions for how to equip Tactical Marines? I used to go with Melta-guns because of the backfire on Plasma but I now see Plasma has a "safe" mode.

Are Rhino and Razorbacks of use any longer? My quick skimming of lists most people seem to have lots of marines and no transports.

Hello, Lyracian,

Devastator squads can be great. I like them with plasma cannons and grav cannons, but I can see an argument for lascannons, too.

There is absolutely a case to be had for a rhino or razorback, but not in great numbers.

What other models do you have? I'll help you craft a list as best I can.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nilai, the classic dreadnought provides reroll 1s in an aura, the eradicators reroll conditionally, and the gladiator lancer rerolls.

Also, assault intercessors, and twin linked weapons (mostly found on bikes and vehicles and inceptors) reroll wounding.

If you're dipping into specific codices, Azrael from Dark Angels provides sustained hits, and deathwatch provides sustained/lethal, possibly armywide? I'm no deathwatch expert.

Hello Celerior,

Celerior wrote:

What other models do you have? I'll help you craft a list as best I can.

That would be great thank you. I have most of the classic units and new boxed set. My main armies used to either be Bike, Dreadnaught or Terminator heavy.

Leviathan Boxed Set - Sternguard, Infernus Squad, Ballistus Dreadnought...

Bucket load of Marines - Tactical/Devastator;

Sniper Scouts; Sternguard; Command Squad

30 Terminators & Command

Bike Squad with HB Attack Bike & Captian/Chaplin on Bike (melta and Plama gun options)

3x MM Attack Bike

2x Predator; 3x Dreadnought; Vindicator; Land Rader; 10x Rhino; 5x Razorback

2x Land Speeder

Techmarine, Librarian and other characters

Celerior wrote:
Hello, Lyracian,
Devastator squads can be great. I like them with plasma cannons and grav cannons, but I can see an argument for lascannons, too.
There is absolutely a case to be had for a rhino or razorback, but not in great numbers.

I have lots of Lascannons and Missiles; a couple of Plasma and no Grav as they are new. Can always proxy up as different weapons with friends though.
Putting the Infernus Squad in a Rhino for mobility seems a nice idea.

Terminator Army
This was easy to point up. Might be stronger dropping a Dread for Bolter Drill and some other units but I like the look of all Terminators/Walkers.
2000 TOTAL (33 Terminators, 3 Dreads)
95 Captain in Terminator Armour
95 Captain in Terminator Armour
90 Librarian In Terminator Armour
410 Terminator Squad (2x Cyclone ML)
410 Terminator Squad (2x Assault Cannon)
410 Terminator Squad (2x Assault Cannon)
160 Dreadnaught
160 Dreadnaught
170 Ballistus Dreadnought


Biker Army
I was doodling ideas here and did not even get to fit in the multi-melta attack bikes! No idea if the lone operative Lt in the box is any good he just looked fun. I was wondering about Artificer Armour on the Captain but had nothing else to do with the 15 points and Bolter Drill looked very strong.
2000
75 Librarian (Leading Tac)
120 Captain on Bike + Bolter Drill
80 Lieutenant with Combi-weapon
215 Bike Squad (6+AB)
175 Tactical Squad
200 Devastator Squad
120 Devastator Squad
150 Sniper Scouts
105 Sternguard
270 Predator Destructor x2
320 Dreadnaughtx2
170 Ballistus Dreadnought

Why I am not impressed by the lancer, part 25:

TL;DR: medium quality high rate of fire: good. High quality low rate of fire: bad.

People focus too much on average damage in theory and too little on probability and actual targets. Probably because averages are easier to math out than conditional probabilities.

Consider a scenario:
One lancer shoots at Magnus the Red.
Between the possibility of failing to hit or wound, Magnus' 4++, a 1CP strat (that can be free with a 6 cabal point cost) that turns any one damage to zero, and a 2 cabal point power which lets you reroll one failed save, Magnus takes 0 damage 93% of the time.

2 lancers? He still take 0 damage 69.7% of the time.
3 lancers? He still takes zero damage 45.5% of the time, and another 31.4% chance of just one getting through for ~5.5 damage.
This is before Magnus potentially burns a CP (has only cabal points burned so far) on command reroll, which shifts at least 8% more probability from 1 getting through to 0 getting through. That's right, Magnus can shrug off 3 lancers about half the time.

Admittedly I'm ignoring the lancer's smaller arms. The icarus rocket pods may take a couple of wounds off, especially if Magnus is not in cover. But my point stands. Put not your faith in low rate of fire anti-tank.

A problem the lancers face is that oath of moment, storm speeders, incursors, strats etc barely help them, and individual rerolls can shift things a long way when you've got small volume of fire.

Compare:
An aggressor brick with an apoth biologis and bolter disc. in tactical doctrine with oath and ignores cover from storm of fire deals on average 9.6 damage after all Magnus' defenses. Add +1 to wound from a thunderstrike and it's ~11.2, or a pip of AP from a whateverstrike and it's ~14, or both and it's 17.8, killing Magnus with ~70% probability (a poisson distribution was used to calculate that 70%, see note in next paragraph).

There are other underconsidered options available. Yesterday, Art of War covered a list from the WTC which brought 2 10-man assault squads with jump packs led by a chaplain. One such squad getting a charge off with oath of moment deals on average 13.5 damage despite all his defenses, and fully killing Magnus ~28% of the time (I used a poisson distribution approximation rather than the true tortured binomial mess for that 28% figure, so it isn't exact but it's close).

I'm not pointing at these individual units as necessarily the best thing since sliced bread. To repeat the TL;DR: medium quality high rate of fire: good. High quality low rate of fire: bad.

That said, Gladiator Lancers have targets against which they excel. They're great at killing high T vehicles with no invul and no way to auto-pass one's saves. Like <sigh> the Gladiator Lancer.

Magnus is probably one of the, of not *the* tankiest things in 40k right now, especially against low Rate-of-Fire high damage attacks like Lancers.

Judging a Lancers performance/efficieny by how well they take on Magnus doesn't really say anything.
It's like saying Lascannons are crap (which they aren't) because you'd on average need a metric ton of them to take out Magnus.

Lyracian:

Bring all 3 attack bikes with multimeltas.
They have many good uses:
1) Can be used as a pack. Then an opponent shoots 1 and they all get a free shoot-back.
2) Can be used to screen against deep strike. Hold them back safe until just before an opponent's turn 2.
3) Can be held in reserve and brought in to score secondaries, or hit a valuable target with 6 melta shots. An opponent's overwatch, no matter how strong, can only target one unit.
4) Good at scoring secondaries, period.
5) Provoke an opponent by zipping one onto an objective. If they want to prevent you from scoring primary they have to come out to shoot you, and attack bikes take a bit of effort to kill. Then your units come out to hit them.

Sniper squads: At least one should be in your army, to hold your home objective. A case can be made for a 2nd or even a 3rd, to provide a bit of damage and for the investigate signals secondaries.

3 devastator squads, just 5 men each. (Compare the relative benefits of saving 40 points by changing 2 10-man dev squads into 3 5-man dev squads. Expect these squads to emerge, shoot, and die even if they have 5 spare bodies) Loadouts: plasma cannons, lascannons, and if your opponent is OK with proxies, maybe some heavy bolters proxied as grav. Test those 3 loadouts, see what you like. Don't trust my mathhammer, your local meta matters. Lacking aggressors or hellblasters, these squads need to provide the punch to shoot up whatever shot up your attack bikes when they grab objectives.

Big ol' 10-man terminator squad with 2 cyclone missile launchers and a terminator captain. If your opponent lacks AP3 or AP2 with Ignore cover or better in quantity, plop them down on on an objective in cover (preferably in the center) and watch your opponent fail to remove them.
But they will have such armaments, so what you do is hold them in deep strike. Rapid ingress them out of sight of those guns you fear, then on your turn move in and charge. Particularly hilarious if your opponent is moving to charge a scout sniper squad on an objective, and then 4" behind that squad, still on the objective, a terminator blob appears. Do they charge the snipers? If they kill them they still won't control the objective and then you'll charge them back, or even use heroic intervention if they don't have good weapons vs. terminators... oops. They can also bring massed S4AP0 shots. Useful if facing something like demons with a 4++ (I'm thinking of pick horror squads which you really need to kill in a single activation).

Where are we?
360 Devastators x3
165 Attack bikes x3
225 Scout snipers x3
410 Terminator blob
120 Terminator captain with bolter discipline
1280 points.

For the rest, consider experimenting.
-Devs getting shot off the board? Maybe put 'em in mehtal bawkses.
-Running out of attack bikes after a turn or 2? Add a 3-men bike squads.
-Wanna shoot an opponent off an objective without exposing a whole extra precious Dev. squad to incoming fire? Bring a land speeder typhoon or two.
-Want something that will actually kill something tough without immediately dying like your devs? Consider your predator destructors, maybe the vindicator. The predators are cheap enough and fast enough you could even use one in place of a bike squad if you really want to force your opponent to commit to knock you off an objective.
If you don't mind claiming that your marines are blood angels successors, I'm sure you could fairly quickly kitbash a librarian dreadnought, to teleport your dev squads or even terminators to exactly where they need to be. That would basically take you to 2000. Hilarious to consider the possibility of a turn 1 massed terminator squad charge directly into your opponent's deployment zone or even coming from behind. If you want to start your termies on the board, even consider pointing out to them that a rerollable 9" charge has >50% of success. They will deploy to counter it, and boom, you have them on the back foot already. Then consider holding your terminators back after all.
An opponent put a ton of OC on an objective you need for the 'tempting target' secondary? Infernus marines have a decent chance of suppressing that OC for the rest of your turn. Another decent teleportation target, and a cheap one if you just need someone to deploy a teleport homer.

OK, there's a 2000 point list:
360 Devastators x3
165 Attack bikes x3
225 Scout snipers x3
95 Terminator captain
410 Terminator blob
270 Predator Destructor x2
200 Land speeder typhoon x2
90 Infernus squad
185 Librarian dreadnought

Try it out with the battle plan I outlined:
Attack bikes grab an objective or two, dev squads/predators only emerge if it looks like the snipers and land speeders don't have enough firepower to take it back or you outrange your opponent or they don't have good anti-whatever in the right spot to shoot back. Librarian dreadnought slings folks around to where they need to be, terminator squads in deep strike waiting for an opportunity to use rapid ingress in a good spot, or maybe on the board threatening a turn 1 charge with the libby dreadnought's help if an opponent's list has no scouts or infiltrators.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Magnus is probably one of the, of not *the* tankiest things in 40k right now, especially against low Rate-of-Fire high damage attacks like Lancers.

Judging a Lancers performance/efficieny by how well they take on Magnus doesn't really say anything.
It's like saying Lascannons are crap (which they aren't) because you'd on average need a metric ton of them to take out Magnus.

Yea.

That's like saying necron warriors durability sucks even fully buffed because 6 aggressors with bolter disclipine in dev doctrine and oath annihillates them with ease even bad dice rolling.

Of course unit that is custom made to defeat something is going to make other look bad. All it shows is unwillingness to honest arqument. Bad faith arqument.

Hi tneva82,

I'm not making a bad faith argument, I hadn't noted MinscS2's prior comment.

Can you suggest good targets for the lancers that are big in the meta other than themselves, where they should outperform similar points in other units?

tneva82 wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Magnus is probably one of the, of not *the* tankiest things in 40k right now, especially against low Rate-of-Fire high damage attacks like Lancers.

Judging a Lancers performance/efficieny by how well they take on Magnus doesn't really say anything.
It's like saying Lascannons are crap (which they aren't) because you'd on average need a metric ton of them to take out Magnus.

Yea.

That's like saying necron warriors durability sucks even fully buffed because 6 aggressors with bolter disclipine in dev doctrine and oath annihillates them with ease even bad dice rolling.

Of course unit that is custom made to defeat something is going to make other look bad. All it shows is unwillingness to honest arqument. Bad faith arqument.

That is not at all a bad faith argument. That is a very relevant one because it appears there are two styles of Marines at play and Celerior is simply examining unit efficiency.

Look at the list I posted, which has that Aggressor brick as a feature. It isn't tailor-made to kill Magnus, it is a staple beatstick unit for Marines in more infantry oriented lists.

I think an infantry-heavy skew list is going to be a very strong option until we start seeing books drop, which will obviously change the game.

Celerior wrote:

Try it out with the battle plan I outlined:
Attack bikes grab an objective or two, dev squads/predators only emerge if it looks like the snipers and land speeders don't have enough firepower to take it back or you outrange your opponent or they don't have good anti-whatever in the right spot to shoot back. Librarian dreadnought slings folks around to where they need to be, terminator squads in deep strike waiting for an opportunity to use rapid ingress in a good spot, or maybe on the board threatening a turn 1 charge with the libby dreadnought's help if an opponent's list has no scouts or infiltrators.

Thank you for the list. There are a lot of fast units to give great mobility. I like the core concept and the Librarian dreadnought to teleport around seems fun. It was good to see you build it up based on objectives and goals whereas I had just looked in box to see what the points cost was for models without really looking at the synergy. I only have two sniper units so that gives we a few points to play with. Not sure which type of Land Speeder I have either.

Celerior wrote:

3 devastator squads, just 5 men each. (Compare the relative benefits of saving 40 points by changing 2 10-man dev squads into 3 5-man dev squads. Expect these squads to emerge, shoot, and die even if they have 5 spare bodies) Loadouts: plasma cannons, lascannons, and if your opponent is OK with proxies, maybe some heavy bolters proxied as grav. Test those 3 loadouts, see what you like. Don't trust my mathhammer, your local meta matters. Lacking aggressors or hellblasters, these squads need to provide the punch to shoot up whatever shot up your attack bikes when they grab objectives.

I have Plasma Cannon; Lascannon and Missile squads all done so can use them and try some proxy with friends to see how Grav-guns work out. Looking at the stats I can certainly see why people would want them for the three attacks and 2+ anti-vehicle. May just have to rely on getting lucky with hazardous plasma and missiles. I at least have better range meaning the Devastators can hang further back.

Celerior wrote:

Big ol' 10-man terminator squad with 2 cyclone missile launchers and a terminator captain. If your opponent lacks AP3 or AP2 with Ignore cover or better in quantity, plop them down on on an objective in cover (preferably in the center) and watch your opponent fail to remove them.

I love my Terminators and have a squad with CML. They used to be the core of a lot of 5th Edition armies along with a Librarian who teleported them around!

Again; thank you so much for taking the time to reply. This help is making me excited to play 40k again. My leviathan box set arrived this afternoon so will be having fun this weekend constructing those models.

Lyracian, I'm not a fan of missile launchers on devs. I feel like against 99% of targets, plasma cannons are better.
Against hordes, S7 and AP2 will ~double your kill rate, so you can afford to lose a shot or two.
Against tanks supercharging, going from S9 to S8 doesn't cost you anything unless your target is T8 or T9, a rarity. Meanwhile that 3rd point of AP can matter a lot. A target with a 2+ & cover fails its saves 50% more often if you hit it with AP3 than AP2. And your average potential damage output is 2x2 = 4 instead of 3.5. And you split it into 2 shots, so luck is somewhat less of a factor.
The only downsides are range, gets hot, and -1 damage targets, of which the last bothers me the most, so you need some diversity, ergo lascannons/grav cannons.

I wonder if your opponents would let you proxy the missile devs as desolators... If so, your missing 3rd scout sniper squad (75 points) can be replaced with upgrading missile devs to krak missile desolators (50 points) plus bolter discipline (25 points).

MNOP, thanks for the defense. tneva82 or anyone else, I am still interested in hearing what a good target for lancers are, somebody please enlighten me!

For the record regarding lascannons and magnus, a side-by side comparison:
1 lascannon devastator squad that moved with oath: 63% chance not a scratch
1 lancer: 93% not a scratch

2 moving lasc dev squads with oath: 23.4% not a scratch
2 lancers: 69.7% not a scratch
2 lancers with oath: 65.5% not a scratch

The probability on 3 dev squads would take me... a while. I rolled it out 12 times: 6, 7, 10, 10 11, 11, 14, 14, 14, 16, 24, 24 damage. That's 25% dead Magnus, 0% no damage.
Compare that to my results for 3 lancers without oath above, which had a 45.5% chance of zero, a 31.4% chance of 3-8 damage, and only a 23.1% chance of more. And as I saw with 2 lancers, oath doesn't help them much.

As for Magnus being one of the tankiest things in the game, consider the:
A) Knight Warden, with higher T, 6 more wounds, the same -1 damage, and a 3+/5++, with two possible boosts: rotate ion shields, or more impressively Shoulder The Burden, which will up you to T13, 2+ for one turn. And a 6+ FNP. The only thing it lacks on Magnus is the ability to zero out one damage.
B) Wraithknight, with T12, more wounds, the same -1 damage, the same ability to auto-pass a save with Strands of Fate unless you have AP6, lacking only the 4++.

It's models like these which can achieve T13, and the existence of ignore-one-success abilities in the Eldar, Sisters, and T-sons rules which convince me not to try to punch through using small numbers of high quality shots. Marines can hit, and they have plenty of AP. To get over the wounding hump, my plan is to use oath of moment and a storm speeder thunderstrike, and middling strength shots like plasma, grav, and melta that can be boosted into wounding basically anything on at least 4s.

Celerior wrote:
Lyracian, I'm not a fan of missile launchers on devs. I feel like against 99% of targets, plasma cannons are better.
Against hordes, S7 and AP2 will ~double your kill rate, so you can afford to lose a shot or two.
Against tanks supercharging, going from S9 to S8 doesn't cost you anything unless your target is T8 or T9, a rarity. Meanwhile that 3rd point of AP can matter a lot. A target with a 2+ & cover fails its saves 50% more often if you hit it with AP3 than AP2. And your average potential damage output is 2x2 = 4 instead of 3.5. And you split it into 2 shots, so luck is somewhat less of a factor.
The only downsides are range, gets hot, and -1 damage targets, of which the last bothers me the most, so you need some diversity, ergo lascannons/grav cannons.

I used to do a lot of Mathhammer for games but have not looked yet at how units have changed. Missiles used to only lose 1 point of strength compared to a Lascannon and had a secondary option of dealing with hoards. I always avoided Plasma due to Gets Hot!, now Hazzardous, being their only firing mode. Now they get more than one shot I can certainly see the attraction of Plasma.

Celerior wrote:
your missing 3rd scout sniper squad (75 points) can be replaced with upgrading missile

I have spent £10 on a pair of Sniper Scouts on eBay giving me 12 snipers. Then kitbashed Rocket Launchers onto the back of melee scouts to be heavy weapon which gives me three squads.

Celerior wrote:

I wonder if your opponents would let you proxy the missile devs as desolators...
plus bolter discipline (25 points).

With my old friends, who are also looking at 10th, and the guys at work proxy will be fine.

I will certainly play the Blood Angels list when I get a chance but wanted to make sure I had a list that could be used "as is" if I go for a pick up game at the local club. At least until I get to know people better. With that in mind I made a few tweaks after looking at what was in my boxes. I know this is weaker than the Teleporting Librarian list but it gives me a no-proxy list. Tactics wise I figured "Wisdom of the Ancients" will help the Devastators with accuracy and it lets me get Bolter Discipline onto my Warlord. I also only have one Typhoon and figured a Razorback will help the Infernus Squad with mobility.

2000 Units –
120 Terminator captain with Bolter Discipline
90 Infernus Squad
100 - Razorback
160 Dreadnought (Las/ML)
120 Devastators (Quad Plasma)
120 Devastators (Quad Lascannon)
120 Devastators (Quad Missiles) [or grav-cannons it allowed]
225 3x Scout Sniper Squad (3x ML)
410 Terminator Squad (2x Cyclone ML)
165 3x Attack bikes [Squads of 1]
100 Land Speeder Typhoon
270 Predator Destructor x2

A final question would be what to give the Sergeants? I was thinking Grav-Pistol and Storm Bolter, since a holstered pistol could be anything. Not sure if it is worth taking a power weapon/fist in case they end up in melee?

I'd pick a combi-weapon over a storm bolter. A power fist is a valid option though not a necessary one. After all there are times you'll want to charge something to avoid it shooting at you, and when that happens you want them to blink and disengage first, since in general you can't fall back and do anything else that turn.
Put a dev squad in the razorback. It serves as extra protection, and firepower booster, and if you get out 1st turn and the infernus squad gets in, it gives the devs 3 inches of extra distance they can travel.

I played a game today online as part of a mini tourney, beat Sisters of Battle 93-29. I've played this opponent before and he isn't the strongest theorist and it isn't the strongest army, so don't give me too much credit.

But I do have some takeaways:
-A librarian dreadnought can make a conservative seeming deployment do hyperagression very well. Cleaned up one part of the board? It'll let you slingshot a unit to contest a different area. Can make up for medium deployment mistakes in a big way. The victory was larger than it had to be thanks to being able to pick up a devastator squad falling behind other units' rapid advance and sling 'em forward to take out another unit, and another.
-Hellblasters with a lieutenant and bolter discipline do a ton of damage, and an opponent has to take a lot of damage to shoot 'em dead. Be somewhere that no one with range >24" can get you. And don't forget to overwatch.
-The best time for an armorium cherub is likely going to be overwatch.
-For 330 pointsworth of models (2 exaction squads, 2 attack bikes, 2 scout bike sq) I was able to force my opponent to bring in his reserves in his deployment zone. Hide 'em here and there in parts of the board you've cleared, or sling 'em forward to die protecting other units. Cheap in terms of both points per wound and points per OC, they're good scoring units.

Next up is probably Eldar: 2 wraithknights, a wraithguard blob, the Avatar, the Yncarne, and 3 characters. Wish me luck. I do have a battle plan.

Celerior wrote:
I'd pick a combi-weapon over a storm bolter. A power fist is a valid option though not a necessary one. After all there are times you'll want to charge something to avoid it shooting at you, and when that happens you want them to blink and disengage first, since in general you can't fall back and do anything else that turn.

I had initially passed up combi-weapons, which is what I used to use, due to the lower BS. Having looked at the special rules I see Anti-Infantry and Devastating Wounds stack as you get a Critical Wound, and thus a Mortal Wound, on 4+ against Infantry. That does seem a nice option to have in the unit.

Celerior wrote:
Put a dev squad in the razorback. It serves as extra protection, and firepower booster, and if you get out 1st turn and the infernus squad gets in, it gives the devs 3 inches of extra distance they can travel.

Would have never thought of that as I am still used to 5th Edition where heavy weapons cannot move and fire. That would certainly help the Gravcannon team get into range.

Celerior wrote:

But I do have some takeaways: -The best time for an armorium cherub is likely going to be overwatch.

Now that is a cool idea!

Celerior wrote:
Next up is probably Eldar: 2 wraithknights, a wraithguard blob, the Avatar, the Yncarne, and 3 characters. Wish me luck. I do have a battle plan.

Best of luck with those other games. I will let you know how I get on once I have everything sorted for the new army. Thank you again for the assistance.

Unfortunately, Infernus squads can't use Razorbacks, since the Razorback cannot carry Tacticus models.

Storm bolters are better than combi-weapons against some light targets but worse against Marines and up -- however, for Sternguard I believe their Sternguard bolt rifles are better than combi-weapons against almost everything.

 Kingsley wrote:
Unfortunately, Infernus squads can't use Razorbacks, since the Razorback cannot carry Tacticus models.

Thank you; I had missed that keyword. Used to just be Terminators that did not fit now it seems all the Elite units are too large to squeeze into a transport.

 Kingsley wrote:
Storm bolters are better than combi-weapons against some light targets but worse against Marines and up -- however, for Sternguard I believe their Sternguard bolt rifles are better than combi-weapons against almost everything.

I like Sternguard and am happy there is some in the boxes set.

I decided to point up the Leviathan boxed set. Amusingly Apothecary Biologis cannot join any of the units in the box! You also cannot have the two Terminator characters lead the same squad. With minimum changes I came up with this for using Leviathan Detachment in a 1000 points game. Can also go with 2x Attack Bikes and no Enhancements rather than Scouts.

1000 Leviathan Detachment
120 Terminator captain with Bolter Discipline
205 Terminator Squad
055 Primaris Apothecary
010 with Artificer Armour
105 Sternguard Vets
180 Infernus Squad
080 Lieutenant with Combi-weapon
170 Ballistus Dreadnought
075 Sniper Scouts

Alright, having lost 98-77 to a 2-wraithknight 2-avatar Eldar list, I'm feeling pretty good. I think had I gone first that I might have been able to win. Some takeaways:

Everyone should take 2 exaction squads. One of mine scored me 2 points for investigate signals turn 3, then 8 points for enemy outpost and 3 more for primary on turn 5.
My other exaction squad 'just' scored me extend battle lines for 5 points.
The callidus bopping over to my opponent's objective on turn 2 and then to a central objective before the scoring at the end of turn 5 scored me 12 more primary points.

Those three units accounted for 30 points on their own.

Lyracian:
1 grav cannon squad can use 'storm of fire' in devastator doctrine to great effect, esp. coming out of reserve. 2 grav cannon squads not so much. I was wrong to build in that redundancy, I should have taken 1 lascannon devastator squad instead.

Librarian dreadnought wins MVP. Slings squads into position, out of danger, and then turn 4 charged the wraithguard brick and picked out the spirit seer for assasinate, held the home objective for 3 more points on turn 5.

The scout bikers added some necessary plink damage to both Avatars, made killing both possible. I think of them as scoring units.

Against wraithknights with access to auto-sixes, consider vecting overwatch. It'll save you several units, and might restrict how often he can phantasm anyway.

I had several things go against me, and the 1st wraithknight still died turn 2. If I had gone first I likely could have got him turn 1. Ironically for someone who has ranted against the lancer, the wraithknight is a near perfect target for the lancer, or rather multiple lancers. The problem is that they can't hide. If I had brought 3, I'd have lost 2-3 of them turn 1 or had to reserve all of them, meaning they couldn't have killed the wraithknight sooner than I did. Infantry's ability to hide from towering is really important.

I hear more than 1 person say here that vehicles are king. I think that if one brings nearly only anti-tank/dual purpose weaponry in a list on infantry chassis, that's better. Consider just how many of the units on my list below are at least decent against tanks:

3 devastator squads, 2 grav 1 plasma (would replace 1 grav with lascannons), 360
1 desolation squad, superkrak and vengor, 170
10-man hellblaster squad led by lieutenant with bolter discipline, 350
2 attack bikes, multimeltas, 110
2 scout bike squads with grenade launchers, sgt has combi-weapon, 150
2 exaction squads with grenade launchers, 70
1 Callidus, 115
1 librarian dreadnought, 185
2 scout sniper squads, 150
1 storm speeder thunderstrike, 160
10-man infernus squad, 180

In this matchup the infernus squad and its inability to hide was a liability, but I think that in other matchups (GSC, Orks) they'd be critical. Should have reserved them for sure. Them and the devastator squad loadout are the only things I'd consider changing about my list.

Unfortunately the marine codex is likely to remove all my biker units from circulation. Both the scout bikers and attack bikes will be sorely missed. In my previous game, they hid well and forced my opponent to bring in deep strikers into his own backfield, and in this game, the 2 attack bikes alone did significant damage to the Avatar and then essentially ate up the surviving wraithknight's entire shooting phase.

Celerior wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

Celerior wrote:
Thanks, Nilai. I will definitely give long fangs another look. Edit: I have done so and don't favor them. First, I don't think a termy leader can join them anymore.

Terminator wolf guard pack leader can, and he can have a heavy weapon.

Not saying it's efficient but you could take Long Fangs, Pack Leader, Iron Priest and Servitors all in one blob to get 7 plasma cannons and a cyclone plus a few extras, and play it in the gladius detachment to put bolter discipline on the priest.

Kull wahad! I wouldn't add the pack leader or the 6th long fang, and keep it to a 'slim' 290 points, but boy howdy, 6 plasma cannons with bolter discipline... That will on average just barely kill a 20-man warrior blob with cryptothralls in a single activation in tactical doctrine with oath whether you moved or not. For sure if you spend a CP to ignore cover. Hilarious, and significantly better and cheaper than the ubiquitous 10-man desolation squad (or any other unit I can think of) at that specific task. Alas that the unit is less effective against Lychguard, getting less shots at the smaller target and not being able to ignore their invul saves. Well, I know where to go if warrior bricks take over the meta!

6 aggressor 220, biologis 55, bolter disclipine. 290 and bye bye buffed 20 necron warrior blob.

Alternative if you want non-wolf units.