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If there is one model it should be OK to counts-as with basically anything it’s the Callidus assassin. Little miss tanked to the gills on polymorphine master of disguise/infiltration/deception? Use whatever model you’ve got!

(Check with your opponent, YMMV, etc)

Celerior wrote:
The Callidus' ability to bop about the field with lone op (combined with decent damage output) is what makes it a scoring monster. Vect is icing on the cake. Combining shadow war vet with the combi lieutenant gives you a lone op with vect, but not the key mobility (and damage output) which makes the Callidus still uniquely built to score lots of points.

I'm not saying the combi-lieut is a bad unit. But I'm willing to go against conventional wisdom (Art Of War for one) and say he's not an auto-include. I think he's being overvalued because he has the rare lone op ability and provides some wound rerolls in a codex that just lost our best source of both of those, in the oath nerf and legendary sniper scouts.

I think that with this codex drop, marines got worse overall. The new detachments, questionable as upgrades, don't make up for the loss of oath wound rerolls and the legends cull.
Vanguard, Ironstorm and Firestorm have legs, but
1) Firestorm will miss tactical doctrine, attack bikes, and storm of fire.
2) Ironstorm will have trouble with secondaries, large model count foes, T-Sons specifically, OC and CP (captains can't attach to vehicles).
3) Vanguard makes a good case. I think a smart vanguard list might do well. But go back and reread Gladius to get a sense of all the things you won't be able to do anymore. I have a feeling you'll miss 'honor the chapter' & fire discipline as well as all 3 doctrines.

It doesn't have the same mobility, but it does have additional mobility. My point is that it makes the Callidus slightly less appealing since it offers the aforementioned benefits. Again, specifically for Vanguard Spearheads.

For Vanguard, I think it is a good trade for the Gladius perks - just because it is so unique, with a fully fleshed out strategy that goes beyond just a base perk to augment units.

Lemondish wrote:

Celerior wrote:
The Callidus' ability to bop about the field with lone op (combined with decent damage output) is what makes it a scoring monster. Vect is icing on the cake. Combining shadow war vet with the combi lieutenant gives you a lone op with vect, but not the key mobility (and damage output) which makes the Callidus still uniquely built to score lots of points.

Oh yes, if you have to decide between the two of them, I suppose you have to go with the assassin.

Sadly, it's been out of stock for forever, so Lt. with combi acting as "Callidus at home" by bringing part of the bucket of utility is totally valid.

I fear I've never gathered the collection necessary to play these wider imperium armies. Always just been Marines in my Marine collection lol

Between my guard and marine collection, if something looks human I can probably kitbash it. I built my own set of assassins a couple of editions ago.

Revisiting the Firestorm Assault, as I am realizing the Vanguard list just doesn't have enough "umph" to it:

Vulkan He'stan (100 points)

Adrax Agatone (85 points)

Apothecary Biologis (70 points)
• Enhancement: Forged in Battle

Captain in Gravis Armour (80 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Boltstorm Gauntlet
• 1x Power Fist
• 1x Relic Blade

OTHER DATASHEETS

Aggressor Squad (220 points)
• 1x Aggressor Sergeant
• 1x Flamestorm gauntlets
1x Twin power fists
• 5x Aggressor
• 5x Flamestorm gauntlets
5x Twin power fists

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180 points)

Drop Pod (70 points)

Eradicator Squad (190 points)
2x Multi-melta

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (170 points)
(only 9 members)

Land Raider (240 points)
Multimelta

Land Raider Redeemer (260 points)
Multimelta

Scout Squad (55 points)
1x Missile launcher, Sniper Rifle

Scout Squad (55 points)
1x Missile launcher, Sniper Rifle

[1995]

Zero finesse brute force list. Six main components:

FiB Biologis + Erads go into Strategic Reserve to pop up where most effective using the innate re-roll, boosted strength and Forged in Battle benefit to maximize damage output
Vulkan + Infernus goes into Drop Pod and pop down delivering brutal firepower via Forgefather re-rolling wounds.
Adrax + BGV roll up in Land Raider to deliver a solid melee threat with Adrax's re-rolling wounds plus Crucible for +1 to-wound.
Aggressor + Grav Cap roll up in Redeemer and throw out similar Immolation Protocols savagery, but for free thanks to Rites.
Scouts for objective play, which Guerilla Tactics helps with getting them around the board.
Inceptors for pinpoint firepower in support of other units; still not sure if I want to go Bolters or Plasma.

Flamestorms, Lascannons, and MMs on the Land Raiders are gravy.

This list also gets to benefit from Onslaught of Fire, Rapid Embarkation and Burning Vengeance. Onslaught seems less useful here, but the others are incredible.

I am not tickled with not having 10 full dudes in the Infernus squad even if I am paying for it, but it does feel worth it for that pinpoint delivery and Vulkan has his own flamer. I did consider going smaller squad and popping them in an Impulsor, which has the Firing Deck for on-the-go flaming, a 4++, and also would benefit from RE and BV strategems. Though it just seems... less flashy that way.

Thoughts?

Quick question. If Helbrecht (or any character for that matter) joins the BT sword brethren do they also gain the Vow sworn bladesman ability or is it just the sword brethren themselves

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question. If Helbrecht (or any character for that matter) joins the BT sword brethren do they also gain the Vow sworn bladesman ability or is it just the sword brethren themselves

It applies to "models in this unit" which should include the Character too-assuming there's not been any errata or anything of the sort.

 Rogzor87 wrote:


Vanguard Spearhead.

Captain in Terminator armor /w Relic Fist + Blade Driven Deep
Libby in Terminator Armor
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
5x Term /w AsCan 2x Chainfist
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread
Ballistus Dread

This is for 1000pnts starter into 10th. I haven't played since beginning of 6th.


So I wrote this list and the person I bought the last 2 Ballistus Dreads from didn't mail it them out ever. Instead he just refunded and never said anything or responded back when I questioned.

Instead I'm thinking of dropping the Librarian and 2 Dreads(since I neve got them) and getting a unit of Aggressors + Landraider Redeemer. I did consider a Crusader though so the Aggressors AND unit of Terminators can sit inside.

The other unit with Captain can infiltrate.

 JNAProductions wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question. If Helbrecht (or any character for that matter) joins the BT sword brethren do they also gain the Vow sworn bladesman ability or is it just the sword brethren themselves

It applies to "models in this unit" which should include the Character too-assuming there's not been any errata or anything of the sort.

Thanks. I thought it did as other interactions with rules that say unit between characters and squad apply to both. I now see why people generally put Helbrecht in a squad of sword brethren then!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Revisiting the Firestorm Assault, as I am realizing the Vanguard list just doesn't have enough "umph" to it:

Spoiler:

Vulkan He'stan (100 points)

Adrax Agatone (85 points)

Apothecary Biologis (70 points)
• Enhancement: Forged in Battle

Captain in Gravis Armour (80 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Boltstorm Gauntlet
• 1x Power Fist
• 1x Relic Blade

OTHER DATASHEETS

Aggressor Squad (220 points)
• 1x Aggressor Sergeant
• 1x Flamestorm gauntlets
1x Twin power fists
• 5x Aggressor
• 5x Flamestorm gauntlets
5x Twin power fists

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180 points)

Drop Pod (70 points)

Eradicator Squad (190 points)
2x Multi-melta

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (170 points)
(only 9 members)

Land Raider (240 points)
Multimelta

Land Raider Redeemer (260 points)
Multimelta

Scout Squad (55 points)
1x Missile launcher, Sniper Rifle

Scout Squad (55 points)
1x Missile launcher, Sniper Rifle

[1995]

Zero finesse brute force list. Six main components:

FiB Biologis + Erads go into Strategic Reserve to pop up where most effective using the innate re-roll, boosted strength and Forged in Battle benefit to maximize damage output
Vulkan + Infernus goes into Drop Pod and pop down delivering brutal firepower via Forgefather re-rolling wounds.
Adrax + BGV roll up in Land Raider to deliver a solid melee threat with Adrax's re-rolling wounds plus Crucible for +1 to-wound.
Aggressor + Grav Cap roll up in Redeemer and throw out similar Immolation Protocols savagery, but for free thanks to Rites.
Scouts for objective play, which Guerilla Tactics helps with getting them around the board.
Inceptors for pinpoint firepower in support of other units; still not sure if I want to go Bolters or Plasma.

Flamestorms, Lascannons, and MMs on the Land Raiders are gravy.

This list also gets to benefit from Onslaught of Fire, Rapid Embarkation and Burning Vengeance. Onslaught seems less useful here, but the others are incredible.

I am not tickled with not having 10 full dudes in the Infernus squad even if I am paying for it, but it does feel worth it for that pinpoint delivery and Vulkan has his own flamer. I did consider going smaller squad and popping them in an Impulsor, which has the Firing Deck for on-the-go flaming, a 4++, and also would benefit from RE and BV strategems. Though it just seems... less flashy that way.

Thoughts?

Man, I really like this list! It looks like it would do pretty solid, especially on a lower tournament scene, but I admit that I’m not a great judge of 40K tactics. What I MOST appreciate is how it feels right for a salamanders list, and I hope you don’t mind if I shameless copy it! Thanks for the inspiration!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


I am not tickled with not having 10 full dudes in the Infernus squad even if I am paying for it, but it does feel worth it for that pinpoint delivery and Vulkan has his own flamer. I did consider going smaller squad and popping them in an Impulsor, which has the Firing Deck for on-the-go flaming, a 4++, and also would benefit from RE and BV strategems. Though it just seems... less flashy that way.

Thoughts?

I like the list, I might run something similar next time I play.

But I'd remove the Scouts.
Add a CoH and put them with Vulkan in the same LR as Agatone and his band of merry Bladeguard. Add the missing Infernus Marine.
You should also have leftover points to take either Champion of Humanity or Adamantine Mantle on the Gravis Captain. (Champion is probably better, but Mantle makes him hilariously tanky. Halving damage and then -1? Sure.)

The list gets worse at objective play (since the scouts are gone) but it's not really bad at it with 2x3 Inceptors, a drop pod, 2 transports and Eliminators Eradicators coming in from the side), but most importantly, I'd be able to sleep soundly at night, knowing I no longer paid pts for a model I'm not fielding.

Edit: I guess you could potentially remove 1x3 Inceptors instead and keep the Scouts. Personally I'd probably be more inclined to keep the Inceptors and even smash them into one squad of 6. 6 Plasma Inceptors with +1 to Wound deals a ton of damage to even T12 targets.

That's a solid idea actually. I'll tinker with the list and see if I can finagle it and maybe try to keep a Scout squad. We really need them and their abilities to better play objectives. Inceptors can do a lot though, so that's also a fair point.

Edit: thoughts on a basic Repulsor in lieu of the base Land Raider? Has a neat embarking trick, but less firepower and a 3+ vs 2+. Saves 40pt though, which is a lot.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Edit: thoughts on a basic Repulsor in lieu of the base Land Raider? Has a neat embarking trick, but less firepower and a 3+ vs 2+. Saves 40pt though, which is a lot.

Since it contains melee-infantry I'd def. keep the Land Raider. Assault Ramp is just too good to pass up.
2+ save instead of 3+ is huge in my experience.

If it contained shooty infantry I'd be more inclined to potentially "demote" it to a Repulsor, but not in this scenario.

How do people like the Stormraven Gunship in stormlance?

Deploy it behind a building in hover mode. Run it forward 20. Have Ragnar Blackmane and Company Heroes in it. Have 6 bladeguard veterans in it with a chaplain. Have a wulfen dreadnought/murder fang/brutalis dreadnought in it. If it gets shots combine the -1 damage with Ride Hard Ride Fast for -1 to hit and -1 to wound. Come your turn charge from the vehicle with what is inside.

To cute?

 MinscS2 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:


Edit: thoughts on a basic Repulsor in lieu of the base Land Raider? Has a neat embarking trick, but less firepower and a 3+ vs 2+. Saves 40pt though, which is a lot.

Since it contains melee-infantry I'd def. keep the Land Raider. Assault Ramp is just too good to pass up.
2+ save instead of 3+ is huge in my experience.

If it contained shooty infantry I'd be more inclined to potentially "demote" it to a Repulsor, but not in this scenario.

Fair point. Shame because the point savings are major. I'm stuck with like 50pt after adjustments and nothing really fits that space. Well, specifically in lists I'm trying to keep Scouts in. If I drop them it's an easy fit for all the various hammer units. Relies on the CoH and Inceptors to handle Objective play which could work in theory.

EDIT:

Updated list - no Scouts, which makes me very sad, but still has so many hammer units!

Strike Force (2000 points)
Firestorm Assault Force

CHARACTERS

Vulkan He'stan (100 points)

Adrax Agatone (85 points)

Apothecary Biologis (70 points)
• Enhancement: Forged in Battle

Captain in Gravis Armour (100 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Boltstorm gauntlet
1x Power fist
1x Relic blade
• Enhancement: Adamantine Mantle

OTHER DATASHEETS

Aggressor Squad (220 points)
• Flamestorm gauntlets

Bladeguard Veteran Squad (180 points)

Company Heroes (95 points)

Drop Pod (70 points)

Eradicator Squad (190 points)
• 2x Multi-melta

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
• Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (110 points)
• Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (170 points)

Land Raider (240 points)

Land Raider Redeemer (260 points)

 Niiai wrote:
How do people like the Stormraven Gunship in stormlance?

Deploy it behind a building in hover mode. Run it forward 20. Have Ragnar Blackmane and Company Heroes in it. Have 6 bladeguard veterans in it with a chaplain. Have a wulfen dreadnought/murder fang/brutalis dreadnought in it. If it gets shots combine the -1 damage with Ride Hard Ride Fast for -1 to hit and -1 to wound. Come your turn charge from the vehicle with what is inside.

To cute?

It might work, in the right list with the right battle plan and other units. -1 to hit, -1 to wound, -1 damage is a great combo, but let's discuss vulnerabilities.

- First, what's the functional difference between moving 20+d6" and moving 12+d6" when most objectives are in the midfield?
- Second, is it actually a good delivery mechanism? You give your opponent a turn to move away, move in an optimal overwatch unit or worse yet wrap your thunderhawk with guardsmen/cultists/rhinos/anything with the mass to prevent disembarkation. To prevent the 1st, you have to land somewhere relevant. To prevent the last, you can't land in the center of his army.
-Third, is it survivable? Let's discuss vulnerabilities. At the top of my list is thousand sons, with auto-hitting flamers (can provide devastating overwatch on your charging units, too) that can be given full rerolls and dev wounds, and the ability to turn off your armor save or hit you with mortal wounds. Next is grav weaponry. I field it, but so do Votann armies where judgment tokens will cancel out those minuses. And against S10-12 like lascannons, all ride hard ride fast does is boost your thunderhawk to effectively T12 with the smokescreen strat. Something like the firestorm detachment flamer strat also loses none of its efficacy to ride hard, ride fast. Ditto the grenades strat and other mortal wound sources like gray knights libbies. Of the 3 armies I faced at my tourney yesterday plus my own list, 2-3 of the armies would love to face this. I've done the math and my list would crack that stormraven twice over without using my D2 units like LR Redeemer or Hellblasters, which could target the contents.

 Niiai wrote:

To cute?

Yeah, too cute. If you're going all in, go ALL in. Use a thunderhawk. Sure it costs $890 and 840 points but what a delivery mechanism! Make a turn 1 charge from 1" from your opponent's deployment zone and take out whatever your opponent would have wanted to use to kill the thunderhawk.
My choice of package might be 10 death company with lemartes/astorath, commander dante solo, plus 5 reivers (the latter 2 units force anyone within 6" to make 2 battle shock checks at -1Ld. No strats or interrupt for your opponent!). That package costs 1415 points.
But at that point I'm wondering whether you really want stormlance. You WANT them to target your thunderhawk rather than your units which can actually score points. Maybe what you need to help out is 10 terminators/deathwing knights with character support (plus reivers?) in the thunderhawk, plus 10 more terminators/deathwing knights with character support nearby using blade driven deep from the ravenguard detachment. But then that plus like 2 scout squads is your whole army.

Or maybe use stormlance after all for ride hard ride fast and put 30-ish foot dudes in the thunderhawk? I don't like it, too many points-worth are sitting idle in the thunderhawk for the first turn. I'm afraid the answer may turn out to be short range shooty marines in a stormraven (or thunderhawk), probably with the firestorm detachment, and that's not what you're going for.
I'm out of ideas on making it work. Does anyone else have any?

Thoughts on rushing big shooty units forward in Land Raiders?

Like 10 Hellblasters (w/Apothecary) zooming up the table in a regular Land Raider, jumping out and unloading from point blank on the enemy. Ditto for Infernus Marines (less so the Apothecary though!). Especially in a Firestorm detachment?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Thoughts on rushing big shooty units forward in Land Raiders?

Like 10 Hellblasters (w/Apothecary) zooming up the table in a regular Land Raider, jumping out and unloading from point blank on the enemy. Ditto for Infernus Marines (less so the Apothecary though!). Especially in a Firestorm detachment?

I think for Hellblasters I'd rather have a Repulsor. It's cheaper, and you don't need the assault ramp for a shooty unit. In fact, for a shooty unit, you'd rather have the ability to jump back into the Repulsor if you get charged. Infernus Marines could be fun in a Drop Pod as long as you don't need a character for them.

What if you despise the Repulsor and never ever want to own one?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What if you despise the Repulsor and never ever want to own one?

I'd tell you to get your head examined

But seriously, I don't get the hate for the model, but tastes are subjective so if you don't like it, don't play it. Just understand that if you're intentionally leaving out the best tool for the job, it's your fault if your list isn't as good as it could be (which might not matter at all if you don't play competitively).

There is still a lot of overlap in the marine book. Multiple units that do the same job. Both LRs and Repulsors are gunboat battle taxis. They have different pros and cons, preferred targets and cargos. But at the end of the day they both lug units across the table while shooting things.

I don’t think either had must-have features that make them hard locked into lists. You prefer one over the other, that’s fine. Just be aware of their weaknesses and shore them up in other parts of your list/play.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Thoughts on rushing big shooty units forward in Land Raiders?

Like 10 Hellblasters (w/Apothecary) zooming up the table in a regular Land Raider, jumping out and unloading from point blank on the enemy. Ditto for Infernus Marines (less so the Apothecary though!). Especially in a Firestorm detachment?

If you're using a land raider, why not rush something good at both shooting and melee? I'm thinking of aggressors, or even foot death company. I subbed foot death company for aggressors recently and have done pretty well with them. Plus you can use all your old tactical marines with power fists.

Re: Hellblasters, I think the apothecary is a trap. You're gambling that they will last the 2-3 turns it takes for the apothecary to revive his value's worth.

If I was going to run Hellblasters, it would be in a Repulsor with a Lieutenant. The Emergency Combat Embarkation option is nice, which pairs with Burning Vengeance, as if they shoot the Repulsor you can pop out and shoot and then get back in if they charge you. Plus Repulsors benefit from the Assault and +1S on the Las-Talons and Lascannons nicely, when they do close in.

Is it worth bringing Multi-Meltas in units of Eradicators?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Is it worth bringing Multi-Meltas in units of Eradicators?

Yes. Same statline, except BS4+ instead of 3+ and double shots.

Worst case scenario (moved, no rerolls, -1 to-hit) you get 2/3rds of a hit from the Multi-Melta and 1/2 a hit from the Melta Rifle.
If targeting a Vehicle or Monster without a hit penalty, you get 1.5 hits on average from the Multi, as compared to .89 from the Rifle.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
What if you despise the Repulsor and never ever want to own one?

One nice thing about the Land Raider is that it absolutely blocks LOS, acting as a mobile wall. And if you have two of them, you can make hide a heck of a lot of stuff behind that wall. I did this a couple of times in 8th, actually. Haven't played 10th yet, but I'll be bringing Land Raiders.

Just about every Marine list I've made recently that involves getting anything anywhere that isn't a bike or a jump packer has involved Land Raiders.

They're a solid block with proper Lascannons and things can assault out of them. And they don't look like this.

I got lucky in the one game I've played so far, rolling box cars for my Rupture Cannon damage vs the Crusader that was coming towards me (filled with 6 Aggressors + Gravis Captain + Gravis Apothecary). Not sure how I'd've handled two of them coming at me.

^Yeah I haven't played 10th yet due to massive time constraints, but I've got a game planned and the 2K list I'm gonna roll with includes two Land Raiders. The firepower plus protection plus kick-a** model make it a winner.

I'll admit, recent lists have been:

"Ok, Techmarine, Gladiator Lancer, 2 Ballistus Dreads, 2 Land Raiders... now what else can I bring?"

Just got a second Techmarine actually so I can do a Feirros/2 Techmarine Dreadmob.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'll admit, recent lists have been:

"Ok, Techmarine, Gladiator Lancer, 2 Ballistus Dreads, 2 Land Raiders... now what else can I bring?"

Just got a second Techmarine actually so I can do a Feirros/2 Techmarine Dreadmob.

Well the Primaris units wouldn't be used in my case, but Predators seem like decent firepower for their points. An Annihilator with Lascannons and HK Missile looks like it does reasonably similar AT work as the Lancer for 30 fewer points.

Or just splurge for Vindicators.

I do love me my Repulsor, but I do regret parting with my Land Raider Crusader to fund the purchase of the Bolt Action rulebook.