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I'm not planning on buying 30 desolators for using in the next 3-6 months until the inevitable nerf. So some thoughts on other marine units.

Chaplain on bike, bike squad with 2 grav guns and a power fist: 160 points. ~6 mortal wounds against vehicles from 12" range, or ~9 with oath of moment.

3 separate attack bikes, 165 points. Good at rushing off and grabbing objectives, but also can rush in and do some damage, preferably positioning among ruins so only nearby units can see them. Then an enemy who shoots one will be shot back at by the other 2. Can be combined with the above unit.

Interceptors with a phobos librarian, 165 points. Fear deepstrike no more. Opponent uses rapid ingress? Respond with squad tactics.

Sniper scouts are superior backfield objective holders. True, they can't move off those objectives, but on the other hand why would they ever want to? And their damage output is good.

Want to eliminate an enemy horde unit?
Get ~6 good weapons in the same squad with blast. Get more shots faster than the enemy gets more troops. So what units can do that, other than obviously desolation marines? 6 boltstorm aggressors. Devastator marines with 4 plasma cannons can come close. Take one or two units like this and fear hordes no more, focus the rest of your list on elites and vehicles. An honestly decent alternative to the hellblaster squad drop pods described above.

Just don't laugh - drop pods. Some decent things go inside them now. If you're really facing 30 desolators every day, consider hellblasters or devastator marines with plasma cannons. Tanks all over the meta? Maybe bring grav cannon devastators. If an opponent doesn't screen well you can even use the drop pods to block movement in the midfield.

What unit combinations have got your attention?

I'm honestly working on a 3 techmarine and 9-11 Dreadnought of varying types list. LOL

I don't see a BA on here yet but anyone have idea/worthwhileness on Handflamers.

I was thinking for running 10x DC with 10 Handflamers and 10 P-fist. I know they can take plasma pistols or Inferno pistols but just weight of attacks might make it worthwhile.

Gravis Captain
Gravis Apothecary
6 Aggressors
Land Raider Crusader

Gravis Apothecary can join a unit that has a Captain, and each of them is 2 models for transport purposes, there 8 of them, and the Crusader holds 16.

That works, right? I'm not missing some limitation?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Gravis Captain
Gravis Apothecary
6 Aggressors
Land Raider Crusader

Gravis Apothecary can join a unit that has a Captain, and each of them is 2 models for transport purposes, there 8 of them, and the Crusader holds 16.

That works, right? I'm not missing some limitation?

It works; I've been considering something similar myself. Not sure how competitive it would be, but it would be a way to make use of the awesome new Apothecary Biologis model.

Give the Apothecary Bolter Discipline, freeing up the Captain to take one of the other ones, and go nuts.

And no, I don't know if that's in any way competitive. I just think it's cool.

A silly thing that might be fun.. We are back to early 8th edition style rules for what you can do to a unit after it has arrived from reserves, meaning if you have a bonus move rule you are now able to trigger it after deep strike again.

Phobos Lt has a move-shoot-move ability, which crucially does not prevent you from declaring a charge like a lot of other similar rules do. You could deep strike Reivers and Phobos Lt, shoot anything, move D6, then declare a charge. Could trigger some battle shock tests easily I guess.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Give the Apothecary Bolter Discipline, freeing up the Captain to take one of the other ones, and go nuts.

And no, I don't know if that's in any way competitive. I just think it's cool.

I don't think it's very competitive but I agree that the sheer amount of bullets spraying out of that unit when it bursts out of the Land Raider is pretty hilarious.

Both Honor Vehement and Artificer Armour are good picks for a Gravis Captain as well;
Vehement bumps him up to 6 S9 attacks with the fist (7 S10 during Assault Doctrine) and I think adds S (but not A) to his Extra Attacks as well.
Artificer Armour turns an already chonky captain into big chungus; Have fun killing an angry T6 W6 dude with 2+/4++/5+++ and who halves incoming damage.

I'm honestly not sure what Enhancement I'd chose out of these two, which is good I suppose.

Celerior wrote:
I

Interceptors with a phobos librarian, 165 points. Fear deepstrike no more. Opponent uses rapid ingress? Respond with squad tactics.

Squad tactic is normal move, fall back, advance.

I would not respond as you lose game by illegal move.

Good eye, Insularum!

None of the units the phobos LT can join hit particularly hard, so while fun, I don't think it'll be competitive until they make reiver's less points. Still it might be useful for assaulting backfield firepower if poorly screened (and doesn't have the tactical doctrine or equivalent stratagem).

As for the aggressors/land raider, if you leave out one character or another, you could fit them in a LR Redeemer. I think that with aggressors you have enough anti-chaff firepower already and the LR Crusader's firepower is redundant. With bolter discipline, a 6-man aggressor unit kills on average 18.66 necron warriors led by a technomancer (5+ FNP). Add the right doctrine and Storm of Fire and you can wipe out the whole blob.

tneva82, I know that, I meant that if they use rapid ingress on their turn to arrive 12" away, when they move in on their following turn I could then use squad tactics.

 Insularum wrote:

Phobos Lt has a move-shoot-move ability, which crucially does not prevent you from declaring a charge like a lot of other similar rules do. You could deep strike Reivers and Phobos Lt, shoot anything, move D6, then declare a charge. Could trigger some battle shock tests easily I guess.

I really love this one. Going to have to try it.



Inceptors with Assault bolters. This unit is really cool. Use your Deep Strike and meteoric descent to easily drop in on the 2nd floor of a ruin. Then you are gaining an extra -1 AP on your weapons from plunging fire. They also overwatch really well because of sustained hits 2.

Seems drop pod contents can'' charge after coming. Deep strikers can't charge after disembark from normal move.

Under reinforcements, units always count as having moved and cannot move further during this phase.

Would have been awesome otherwise!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nvm! I didn't realize the phobos Lt ability triggers in the shooting phase, Awesome!

I've been tossing around a similar Gravis unit, only basing it on Eradicators. Lethal Hits and Bolter Discipline, along with the innate re-rolls for the unit itself, really improves the lethality (ha!) of those melta rifles. They also feel a lot more flexible because their target doesn't have to be your oaths selection when targeting monsters or vehicles.

Right now, I'm in love with my Hellblasters jumping out of a Repulsor with an Apothecary and a Lieutenant. The Repulsor itself is already a really competitively priced and effective unit, but it also serves to help keep this unit from being bogged down too much by a charge that they may not want to eat. The Apothecary helps make the unit whole when they blow themselves up. And that lieutenant helps ensure these high AP shots make it through the wound phase. I also think it looks fantastic on the table, especially if you were already modeling the heavy plasma bits on your unit.

The other combo I've been meaning to try is Calgar leading Bladeguard with an Ancient pouring out of a Land Raider to really gum up a hotly contested objective.

I've done the librarian with Sternguard unit but I'm really starting to think he's more of a liability than anything. Sure, extra psychic attacks and a 4+ invulnerable save seemed useful on paper, but out of all the units I've been toying with, Sternguard do not appear to really need a leader. A captain can fit for the free strategem, but I think I want to just put them in a drop pod.

Good grief, Vilgeir, you're right. If it weren't for screening being a thing now, we'd be back to what, 5th edition or something? With 30 sternguard coming out of drop pods to do about 23 MW to an Imperial Knight with Oath of Moment. Of course screening is a thing now, so I don't think it's likely to work that well.

What *is* your plan for reliably doing damage to knights, and what's the delivery mechanism?

I feel like anything with less than 24" range needs multiple units because of overwatch, and first strike capability is key.

Well we finally got the pts for the Legends-stuff.

Sicarians look about right. Essentially better and slightly more expensive Leman Russes.

Leviathan Dreads also look about right. I'm even more convinced than ever now that the Redemptor is overpriced.
Right now the Leviathan is 15 pts cheaper and comes with a 5++, while the Redemptor has (arguably) slightly better shooting.
Compared to the Leviathan the Redemptor should be about 210 pts as well.

Kratos looks quite underpriced, especially compared to Sicarians but also compared to say a Rogal Dorn.
21x D2-D3 Volkite shots or 4x 24" S12 Melta shots + 4x regular Lascannons, with both loadouts having an Autocannon and a Multimelta to boot, mounted on a T12 18W 2+ chassi?
This thing could easily be 270-280 pts instead of 245.

Edit: Quick math. Against T10 with OoM the full-Volkite-loadout averages almost 14 mortal wounds and some AP0 D3 wounds.

Celerior wrote:
Good grief, Vilgeir, you're right. If it weren't for screening being a thing now, we'd be back to what, 5th edition or something? With 30 sternguard coming out of drop pods to do about 23 MW to an Imperial Knight with Oath of Moment. Of course screening is a thing now, so I don't think it's likely to work that well.

What *is* your plan for reliably doing damage to knights, and what's the delivery mechanism?

I feel like anything with less than 24" range needs multiple units because of overwatch, and first strike capability is key.

I'd like to stress that it truly is just a plan up until I encounter a Knight list, since I haven't yet faced one in 10th edition. I'm pretty reluctant at this stage to buy into 30 desolators and a handful of whirlwinds seeing as they'll soon be addressed in a balance update. I've only got a few games in so far and they've all been against tweaks to 9th edition infantry focused lists with few vehicles or monsters. Not a lot of long time collectors in my local meta, so things usually take a bit to shake out.

That said, while the above units are great combinations for infantry, you can't fit them all into one list and still have answers to everything you might face. I think the majority of my tank hunting is going to fall on Gladiator Lancers or Repulsor Executioners. I'm definitely going to try the new dread out as well, and in almost all cases I'm looking at ensuring I have space for at least one SS Thunderstrike in my list for big game hunting.

But for now it's all just planning until I hit the table across from some dominus.

so, just getting my first aggressors. Do people recommend running them with the flamers or the bolter/grenade launcher set up?

xerxeskingofking wrote:
so, just getting my first aggressors. Do people recommend running them with the flamers or the bolter/grenade launcher set up?

I personally like the bolter/grenade loadout, especially now that the fist weapons are twin-linked (half the shots compared to before, but rerolling wounds). The grenades will usually result in more total shots compared to the flamers, and they have Blast.

Can the normal captain take a plasma pistol? It's listed on his ranged weapon profiles but the options don't actually seem to include it as a possibility.

 Daba wrote:
Can the normal captain take a plasma pistol? It's listed on his ranged weapon profiles but the options don't actually seem to include it as a possibility.

The firstborn one? I don't see it listed in either the ranged profile or the wargear options on the app. The Primaris one can, but only when paired with a fist, which makes the special Imperium subscription Captain illegal currently lol

 Daba wrote:
Can the normal captain take a plasma pistol? It's listed on his ranged weapon profiles but the options don't actually seem to include it as a possibility.

Looks to be an error. Seeing that they get the range of pistols, and plasma pistols have been the sidearm of well-equipped marines since forever, I doubt anyone would object if you took one.

But with GW these days, who knows what the intended outcome is.

Same problem as the Lieutenant and thunder hammer. You can take what it says you can take until GW says otherwise.

I want to second the opinion above about getting your aggressors to be boltstorm aggressors. Many enemy units will not be deterred by S4AP0D1 overwatch. Meanwhile, the extra range and the blast keyword make a big difference. Suppose a 6-man aggressor squad is targeting a 20 necron warrior blob with Orikan the diviner's 4++, a unit that's meant to last forever. Consider the effect of 6 blast weapons... you get more shots faster than they get more bodies. That's 63 shots, ~56 hits, ~44 wounds, ~22 failed saves. Not that I necessarily recommend this, but if you add a character with bolter discipline, you can wipe out the above unit with high probability, even if they also have cryptothralls. (84 hits, 63 wounds, ~31 failed saves)

The only other units in the marine codex that can field 6+ blast weapons are desolation marines and... scout bikers? Both of which are more fragile with less melee capability.

I think that having a unit or two with several blast weapons is going to be a hard counter to horde units/armies.

I'm liking the way Bolter Inceptors look in this edition. The combination of twin-linked and Sustained Hits 2 at 2 damage make them impressively consistent damage dealers.

It's a pity there isn't (yet) a Leader that can join them.

They're great. Their special deep strike ability can be used to relatively easily put them on the second level of a ruin, so they can get plunging fire too!

Celerior wrote:
I want to second the opinion above about getting your aggressors to be boltstorm aggressors.

Boltstorm+Grenade Aggressors are almost busted, I had a go with them in my last game. They can easily become AP2 with Ignores Cover to boot if they shoot against their nearest target + Storm of Fire.
Add a Captain (for free SoF) with Bolter Discipline and why not a Biologis while you're at it (or simply skip the Captain entirely and give Bolter Discipline to the Biologis if you're short on points), and they will outright kill most things they're shooting at, especially with OoM. If something survives, charge it and smash it to paste.

There's pretty much no reason (other than Overwatch-shenanigans) to take Flamestorm Aggressors currently, especially since they "due to reasons" dont get grenadelaunchers and Flamers are no longer Assault.
*Sad Salamander noises*

I just noticed that the index version of the Phobos Lieutenant can only be equipped with a master-crafted scoped bolt carbine, but the model in the Leviathan box has a combi-flamer

 Bilge Rat wrote:
I just noticed that the index version of the Phobos Lieutenant can only be equipped with a master-crafted scoped bolt carbine, but the model in the Leviathan box has a combi-flamer

yeah, hes a separate datasheet, "LIEUTENANT WITH COMBI-WEAPON", which is not grouped with the other phobos LTs, but at the end of the character section.

instead of being a phobos squad leader, hes a lone operative with a "re-roll 1s to wound" aura vs specified objective point.

Oh yeah, I found it. How strange

Thank you!

Anyone considering footslogging terminators should have a look at the dark angels' deathwing command squad.

Pros:
Additional wargear options, 4+ FNP vs. mortals once, apothecary and improved OC.
Cons:
Surprisingly mild points increase, no teleport homer, difficulty attaching characters.
Sidegrades: different special rules.

Include one or two termies with TH/SS to make damage 1 and 3 weapons less effective against you.

Compare. What do you guys think?