Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Nope, there is no reason ultramarines terminators/1st company are better than dark angels, Blood Angels or raven guard etc. The number of characters a chapter has is irrelevant to the base rules. White Scars aren't "worse" if everyone else is on an even playing field, it just means they aren't being punished for not taking bikes any more.

You'll notice that I didn't say "the bonus has to be to their rules"?

It's as easy as "If your subfaction is Ultramarines, a First Company detachment takes Sternguard Veterans as Battleline".

I mean, making them battleline is giving them bonus rules? It's just rules that do nothing atm, which is paramount to.... not giving them anything.

Dudeface wrote:

I mean, making them battleline is giving them bonus rules? It's just rules that do nothing atm, which is paramount to.... not giving them anything.

Well, there's the whole "letting you take them 6x instead of 3x" thing?

Dark Eldar are the example of what happens when you allow allies Your good stuff gets used in another army and then your army gets it's few good units nerfed because of the sins of Aeldari. Mega against, unless heavily restricted.

the issue with drukhari allies is that drukhari were really really bad, and eldar were really really good, so while drukhari were getting no wins, eldar was stealing their one good option to win even more

i think the solution is to give the ynnari rule something like the new demon rule where you need to take one unit of battleline for everything unit of something else you take. when power level is a concern, it's a great way of dealing with it (power level, by the way, is not a concern with GSC. when we were good earlier in 10th, it was because of our army rule, which, again, does not work on brood brothers)

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

I mean, making them battleline is giving them bonus rules? It's just rules that do nothing atm, which is paramount to.... not giving them anything.

Well, there's the whole "letting you take them 6x instead of 3x" thing?

Good point, so definitely a rules change and one that doesn't make much sense, because now if you want 6 sternguard squads, you're stick being a specific chapter again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

because they're not up to snuff on their own lore.

Listen Kan- you may want to reread some source material. So far I've consulted the 7th, 8th, 9th GSC dexes, the 3rd ed citadel Journal dex by Tim Huckleberry, the original 1990 Genestealer expansion from Space Hulk. I'm trying to track down the second ed Tyranid Dex and the original WD 126-27 Dex.

I don't have time to quote them right now, but every source I checked say you are at least somewhat mistaken on you interpretation of the GSC lifecycle. Here's a brief summary of what of seen so far:

9th- Says the hypnosis starts with the implantation of genetic material. This is probably the text that most closely matches my interpretation.

8th- Says the hypnosis happens before implantation of genetic material. This is closest to your interpretation- first, it does say that the Cult doesn't always implant everyone they hypnotize. It is the only source I've read that says this. It also mentions the first born hybrid issue, and again, it's the only source I've read so far that does.

7th- Says hypnosis occurs before implantation of genetic material, but does not explicitly state whether all hypnotized hosts are subsequently implanted or not.

1990 Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk- pretty tired by the time I found this one, so I might be mistaken... But I think this one says the implantation happens first, and I'm not even sure if it describes the effect as hypnosis at all. I will double check when I get home.

3rd ed Hucklberry dex- Strongly implies implantation first; hypnosis is only referenced as conditioning which makes the infected love their hybrid children.

Every single one of those sources mentions the genetic implantation, even the one that comes closest to supporting your interpretation. The two sources I am still looking for will mention it as well- I don't have to find them to know that, because I've built lists using those rules before- but I will.

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

I mean, making them battleline is giving them bonus rules? It's just rules that do nothing atm, which is paramount to.... not giving them anything.

Well, there's the whole "letting you take them 6x instead of 3x" thing?

Good point, so definitely a rules change and one that doesn't make much sense, because now if you want 6 sternguard squads, you're stick being a specific chapter again.

It might not make sense to you, but to anyone with a cursory knowledge of their own chosen subfaction's lore? They'd likely say "Oh hey that makes sense".

An Ultramarines 1st Company force isn't going to be the same as a Raven Guard 1st Company("The Blackwings") force. Hell, a Raven Guard First Company isn't even going to be consisting of the same things as the actual First Company detachment in all likelihood. Per their supplement, the Raven Guard's Primaris elements in the 1st primarily take to the field in Phobos wargear and they frequently have Stormtalon Gunships in support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

because they're not up to snuff on their own lore.

Listen Kan- you may want to reread some source material. So far I've consulted the 7th, 8th, 9th GSC dexes, the 3rd ed citadel Journal dex by Tim Huckleberry, the original 1990 Genestealer expansion from Space Hulk. I'm trying to track down the second ed Tyranid Dex and the original WD 126-27 Dex.

I don't have time to quote them right now, but every source I checked say you are at least somewhat mistaken on you interpretation of the GSC lifecycle. Here's a brief summary of what of seen so far:

Spoiler:

9th- Says the hypnosis starts with the implantation of genetic material. This is probably the text that most closely matches my interpretation.

8th- Says the hypnosis happens before implantation of genetic material. This is closest to your interpretation- first, it does say that the Cult doesn't always implant everyone they hypnotize. It is the only source I've read that says this. It also mentions the first born hybrid issue, and again, it's the only source I've read so far that does.

7th- Says hypnosis occurs before implantation of genetic material, but does not explicitly state whether all hypnotized hosts are subsequently implanted or not.

1990 Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk- pretty tired by the time I found this one, so I might be mistaken... But I think this one says the implantation happens first, and I'm not even sure if it describes the effect as hypnosis at all. I will double check when I get home.

3rd ed Hucklberry dex- Strongly implies implantation first; hypnosis is only referenced as conditioning which makes the infected love their hybrid children.

Every single one of those sources mentions the genetic implantation, even the one that comes closest to supporting your interpretation. The two sources I am still looking for will mention it as well- I don't have to find them to know that, because I've built lists using those rules before- but I will.

Not seeing any of that saying "This turns someone into a Brood Brother"?

Because remember, this is what you said:

No, that actually doesn't fit the lore. The lore is that if a purestrain does an implant attack, the one who is implanted becomes a member of the cult. If I implant a Cadian, that Cadian joins me.

I'll full on cop to not having codices handy(they're not my army, after all, but a friend of mine does have them...which is why I find the whole Brood Brothers reactions here so weird, since he was more interested with them being a limited number of units actually in the codex than roughly 2/3rds of the Guard range) and working off Lexicanum. But they're usually good about citing their sources.

Also, obligatory throw-out since you're citing old lore:

Many of these Brood Brothers may be members of the local civil or military authorities, continuing to carry out their normal duties in society. They remain hidden until the cult/clan is powerful enough to completely take control of the host society. They regard and often venerate the Genestealer Patriarch as a grandfather or deity. They are especially fanatic members of the clan, motivated by intense, instinctual bonds to their Genestealer and Hybrid relatives.

The Brood Brothers infiltrate Planetary Defence Forces or local militia, giving the brood the military training and access to weapons they would normally lack. When the cult finally begins its uprising to claim the planet, the brothers will rebel along with their kindred, beginning a campaign of sabotage and guerrilla warfare to wreck planetary defenses and tie down loyal troops.

There's an interesting thing to consider right here and now though:
While a local entity, there's nothing hard or fast saying that PDFs don't fall under the auspices of the Astra Militarum.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

I mean, making them battleline is giving them bonus rules? It's just rules that do nothing atm, which is paramount to.... not giving them anything.

Well, there's the whole "letting you take them 6x instead of 3x" thing?

Good point, so definitely a rules change and one that doesn't make much sense, because now if you want 6 sternguard squads, you're stick being a specific chapter again.

It might not make sense to you, but to anyone with a cursory knowledge of their own chosen subfaction's lore? They'd likely say "Oh hey that makes sense".

An Ultramarines 1st Company force isn't going to be the same as a Raven Guard 1st Company("The Blackwings") force. Hell, a Raven Guard First Company isn't even going to be consisting of the same things as the actual First Company detachment in all likelihood. Per their supplement, the Raven Guard's Primaris elements in the 1st primarily take to the field in Phobos wargear and they frequently have Stormtalon Gunships in support.

No, it doesn't make sense. Ultramarines do not have more or more readily accessible suits of terminator armour or veteran units than other chapters. In fact by your own example, Raven Guard believe in tactical felxibility and will take phobos etc. even in 1st company. Great, so why would you then not prefer to use the vanguard detachment to represent a Raven Guard 1st company deploying in phobos?

You started off saying it doesn't have to be a rules thing then immediately gave a rules based example, the subsequent points just show how the current systems in place support more flexibility with less feelsbads.

I'll dare to say it's nigh impossible for you to give an example of anything locked to a subfaction that doesn't flanderise them and punish them for either taking "the wrong stuff" or force game-related issues.

Weirdly counts-as allies is the only way around that "oh look at my blue ultramarine white scars force I allied into my ultras 1st company" sort of thing.

Dudeface wrote:

No, it doesn't make sense. Ultramarines do not have more or more readily accessible suits of terminator armour or veteran units than other chapters.

They do not have more of them, but they are more famous for having deployed the entirety of their 1st Company in singular engagements. The Fists and their successors(notably Crimson Fists) are mentioned as having done similar.

In fact by your own example, Raven Guard believe in tactical felxibility and will take phobos etc. even in 1st company.

Their Primaris elements will, yes. Similarly, their 2nd Company will field large numbers of Infiltrators and Reivers.

Great, so why would you then not prefer to use the vanguard detachment to represent a Raven Guard 1st company deploying in phobos?

Have you ever looked at what is Battleline for Marines?
There is not a single Phobos unit in that list.

Your listbuilding to match the theme is restricted; albeit less so than White Scars Biker lists.

You started off saying it doesn't have to be a rules thing then immediately gave a rules based example, the subsequent points just show how the current systems in place support more flexibility with less feelsbads.

I said "Battleline", which isn't rules but rather is army composition. Battleline adds zero rules to a unit, just affects how listbuilding works. Certain Battleline units do have special rules tied to it though.

I'll dare to say it's nigh impossible for you to give an example of anything locked to a subfaction that doesn't flanderise them and punish them for either taking "the wrong stuff" or force game-related issues.

It's hard to give examples of anything "locked to a subfaction" when most subfactions in the Loyalist Marines book have at most a single character.

Weirdly counts-as allies is the only way around that "oh look at my blue ultramarine white scars force I allied into my ultras 1st company" sort of thing.

I'm going to need you to break down what you're trying to say right here.

Through cunning and unholy good fortune, a Genestealer Cult can send its questing tendrils writhing into even the highest ranks of the military forces that should be standing guard against it. So does the Patriarch seize new and potent weapons of revolution.

That is the lore paragraph of the Brood Brothers rule.

You can debate the lore details of the implantation process all you want, but it is lore that the GSC can get access to a good portion of the Astra Militarum's arsenal and equipment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

No, it doesn't make sense. Ultramarines do not have more or more readily accessible suits of terminator armour or veteran units than other chapters.

They do not have more of them, but they are more famous for having deployed the entirety of their 1st Company in singular engagements. The Fists and their successors(notably Crimson Fists) are mentioned as having done similar.

In fact by your own example, Raven Guard believe in tactical felxibility and will take phobos etc. even in 1st company.

Their Primaris elements will, yes. Similarly, their 2nd Company will field large numbers of Infiltrators and Reivers.

Great, so why would you then not prefer to use the vanguard detachment to represent a Raven Guard 1st company deploying in phobos?

Have you ever looked at what is Battleline for Marines?
There is not a single Phobos unit in that list.

Your listbuilding to match the theme is restricted; albeit less so than White Scars Biker lists.

You started off saying it doesn't have to be a rules thing then immediately gave a rules based example, the subsequent points just show how the current systems in place support more flexibility with less feelsbads.

I said "Battleline", which isn't rules but rather is army composition. Battleline adds zero rules to a unit, just affects how listbuilding works. Certain Battleline units do have special rules tied to it though.

I'll dare to say it's nigh impossible for you to give an example of anything locked to a subfaction that doesn't flanderise them and punish them for either taking "the wrong stuff" or force game-related issues.

It's hard to give examples of anything "locked to a subfaction" when most subfactions in the Loyalist Marines book have at most a single character.

Weirdly counts-as allies is the only way around that "oh look at my blue ultramarine white scars force I allied into my ultras 1st company" sort of thing.

I'm going to need you to break down what you're trying to say right here.

All of the marine chapters have a fabled "all of the first company" story in there somewhere, for the ultras you're referencing the battle for Macragge I assume? Well the Blood Angels did the same at the siege of Baal, so get them on the list for battleline veterans. Scythes of the Emperor are ultramarine successors who suffered near 100% losses at the hands of the GSC/Nids. They'd use ultramarines rules despite having 0 veterans. Minotaurs deploy regularly at full chapter strength.

There is no real justification for giving a subfaction anything that can make it more essential or better than the others at specific army builds. Battleline is a rule and has rule interactions, which I suspect will be expanded upon later in the edition. All it takes is for terminators or bladeguard or whatever to suddenly be "the best marine unit" and everyone is magically either ultramarines in the wrong paint or you have ultras players deploying their recon company and wondering why they can't 6 units of infiltrators simply because they're not painted in black etc.

 Tyran wrote:

Through cunning and unholy good fortune, a Genestealer Cult can send its questing tendrils writhing into even the highest ranks of the military forces that should be standing guard against it. So does the Patriarch seize new and potent weapons of revolution.

That is the lore paragraph of the Brood Brothers rule.

You can debate the lore details of the implantation process all you want, but it is lore that the GSC can get access to a good portion of the Astra Militarum's arsenal and equipment.

Which isn't the same as all of their arsenal and equipment, nor is it the same as all of their personnel and training.

Also, we have an answer now about how PDFs are considered:

Codex: Astra Militarum 9E page 17 wrote:
<interesting bit about how the Departmento Munitorum considers Militarum Regimentums interchangeably;i.e. all Cadians are from the Cadian Regiment.>
On their home worlds, the forces who serve to defend the planet may be split into cohorts, militia groups, geno-corps or a host of other formations known by a variety of local terms, but in the Astra Militarum these are all considered different types of regiment.

So with this in mind, I still reiterate my objection to named regimental units. I'm still opposed to superheavy tanks in the Brood Brothers listings though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

All of the marine chapters have a fabled "all of the first company" story in there somewhere, for the ultras you're referencing the battle for Macragge I assume?

Macragge 1 & Mortarion's invasion, yes. Also Vigilus saw them send out a good chunk of the 1st.

Well the Blood Angels did the same at the siege of Baal, so get them on the list for battleline veterans.

Sure, and if they do that then they cannot take Sanguinary Guard.

Because remember:
It's not just the actual, in the book Chapters that get to use these detachments anymore. For some stupid reason, the supplemental books get to as well.

Scythes of the Emperor are ultramarine successors who suffered near 100% losses at the hands of the GSC/Nids. They'd use ultramarines rules despite having 0 veterans.

They have veterans now. The Chapter was rebuilt as a Primaris Chapter.

Minotaurs deploy regularly at full chapter strength.

Minotaurs are closer to Grey Knights in terms of how they operate than "regular" Astartes, at least from what I can recall from IA12.

There is no real justification for giving a subfaction anything that can make it more essential or better than the others at specific army builds. Battleline is a rule and has rule interactions, which I suspect will be expanded upon later in the edition.

We've seen zero indication of this. All we have seen is the natively battleline units featuring a special rule on the unit itself.

All it takes is for terminators or bladeguard or whatever to suddenly be "the best marine unit" and everyone is magically either ultramarines in the wrong paint or you have ultras players deploying their recon company and wondering why they can't 6 units of infiltrators simply because they're not painted in black etc.

Because Ultramarines aren't running multiple companies worth of Vanguard units, unlike the Raven Guard and their Successors. Ultras are running the Vanguard Company(100 Marines strong), with some elements of their Assault Companies utilizing Reiver & Incursor gear.

Just like how Raven Guard can't abuse the Vanguard Detachment with Marneus Calgar and Roboute Guilliman.

Nice- the tone seems a little less hostile here. I'm happy about that, because I am interested in civil discussion. I understand how important the issue is to you, and I want to say in advance that if MY tone has at times seemed aggressive, it was never my intention- and same going forward. That's one of the reasons I concede that I don't necessarily mind adding units to the dex if GW can do it in a good way.

I looked at the BB unit entry in the 8th dex, and yeah- they get the Cult Ambush rule, and there are strats they can use and so on. They are far more effective due to these synergies, but what they feel like to me is Late-Stage Brood Brothers- so they've fought with the Cult long enough to muddy up their own training from human military forces and incorporate more and more of the GSC's guerilla tactics into their fighting styles.

For me, this kind of thing is important, because I'm all about campaign RPG style play; the Cadian soldier who finds himself at the wrong end of an ovipositor is still fighting like a Cadian soldier, blending in, gathering intel, finding ways to help his Cult maybe boost a tank or two, and this behaviour would persist for at least a month or so... But the Cult might decide to let that soldier continue to be a sleeper agent right up until ascension day if he's good at it. If he's not, the Cult may ask him to desert so that he can fight with the Cult... At which point his tactics will begin to shift away from the human military training to the Cult ambush style. The Cult might also decide that the soldier may be more useful as breeder, or any other role.

There will be more of this as we move on, but I'll save it for specific responses.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Not seeing any of that saying "This turns someone into a Brood Brother"?

Because remember, this is what you said:

No, that actually doesn't fit the lore. The lore is that if a purestrain does an implant attack, the one who is implanted becomes a member of the cult. If I implant a Cadian, that Cadian joins me.

And you'll notice that in the part of my text that you quoted that I did not say implant = Brood Brother. I said implant = cult member. Why were you even trying to find implant = brood brother? It's not a claim I ever made.

I might have said that GSC wouldn't trust someone to be a part of their military operations until they had received the implantation- in fact if I haven't said that yet, consider it said now.

My thought is that all Brood Brothers would be implanted, but that not every Cult member who has been implanted is necessarily a brood brother- some would be sleeper agents, some would be breeders... The point is that implantation of the genetic material is an important part of the cult's control- it is the thing that makes a host particularly receptive to the psychic communication of the Broodmind; it is the thing that causes hybridization to occur. And a Cult would have to be stupid to not use the implantation for every cult member who has an important role within the cult. Even if they can hypnotize via psychic power (and they can), that's usually used to make them passive for implantation, because it is the implantation that provides the greatest degree of control. Breeders, of course, require implantation; you can't hypnotize someone's body to produce hybridized offspring.

It's important to note that the term Brood Brother as it is commonly used means a unit of infected hosts whose role is to fight with the Cult army.

Non-combat members of the Cult must exist, but we don't have a different term for them because they aren't relevant to the game.

This little semantic entanglement is responsible for at least some of the communication breakdown.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I'll full on cop to not having codices handy(they're not my army, after all, but a friend of mine does have them...which is why I find the whole Brood Brothers reactions here so weird, since he was more interested with them being a limited number of units actually in the codex than roughly 2/3rds of the Guard range) and working off Lexicanum. But they're usually good about citing their sources.

Like I said, I can see why anyone- you and your friend included- would be interested in having bespoke BB units in the dex; in every edition I've seen that uses this method, the units in question always did have better synergy with the rest of the army. It's not a bad option.

But implanted Kasrkin aren't going to forget the training they received as humans when they're implanted. They aren't going to stop using the gear that they've received as a result of their role after being implanted either- the psychic bond allows BB to know when they are in the presence of other cult members, so the disguise is perfect- anyone in the Cult looks at the dude with Kasrkin gear and thinks "That's one of us in that souped up armour using the suped up gun". Any imperial just sees another Kasrkin. If they take of their gear and change their weapons, not only are they not as effective on the battlefield, they also lose the disguise the gear provides. This is why I personally feel the current system is more reflective of the fluff.

That's not to say I don't understand your point of view, nor does it mean that I don't see some advantages and even some fluff in the system you propose; as I mentioned at the beginning of this post, a bespoke BB unit would represent a fighter who had been fighting with the cult for long enough to learn their style,


Also, obligatory throw-out since you're citing old lore:

Many of these Brood Brothers may be members of the local civil or military authorities, continuing to carry out their normal duties in society. They remain hidden until the cult/clan is powerful enough to completely take control of the host society. They regard and often venerate the Genestealer Patriarch as a grandfather or deity. They are especially fanatic members of the clan, motivated by intense, instinctual bonds to their Genestealer and Hybrid relatives.

The Brood Brothers infiltrate Planetary Defence Forces or local militia, giving the brood the military training and access to weapons they would normally lack. When the cult finally begins its uprising to claim the planet, the brothers will rebel along with their kindred, beginning a campaign of sabotage and guerrilla warfare to wreck planetary defenses and tie down loyal troops.

There's an interesting thing to consider right here and now though:
While a local entity, there's nothing hard or fast saying that PDFs don't fall under the auspices of the Astra Militarum.

<Snip>

Double post.

Bluntly, I'm not going to answer any of that other than to tell you to go read the Shadowvaults book for KT.

You're NOT getting Kasrkin. You're NOT getting Cadians. They're executing GSC infected. You're not getting DKoK because of the way reproduction works for their homeworld.

With the fact that we now have what seems to be confirmation that yes, the PDF is considered part of the Guard apparatus? We have stats and gear for PDF:
It's called the Infantry Squad.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bluntly, I'm not going to answer any of that other than to tell you to go read the Shadowvaults book for KT.

You're NOT getting Kasrkin. You're NOT getting Cadians. They're executing GSC infected. You're not getting DKoK because of the way reproduction works for their homeworld.

With the fact that we now have what seems to be confirmation that yes, the PDF is considered part of the Guard apparatus? We have stats and gear for PDF:
It's called the Infantry Squad.

Man, why don't they send Cadians and Kasrkin to handle Chaos outbreaks? They're apparently perfectly incorruptible, or at least able to 100%, without fail, detect when someone is tainted and handle them accordingly.

Sometimes Cults (Chaos or Genestealer) get found early on, and eradicated.
Sometimes they don't, and are able to spread and worm their way into all sorts of places they shouldn't be.

Even if it's rare for a Kasrkin to be infected, is it rarer than a Primarch showing up?

So, it's my understanding from the Fluff, that in the instances of a GSC outbreak, the Commisariat beings liberally spreading out the bolter shells to the head of anyone even suspected of carrying taint. Dial that up to 11, for Cadians, and their Elite stuff like Kasakin and the Scions. Scions and whatnot likely get daily blood tests to verify status, and if not, they are purged. It's not even a bad practice. You literally cannot contain the GSC like a virus. By the time you discover it, you likely have to execute the majority of the people involved and start over.

There really is no "faction" that is resistant to it, please correct me here. Even the tau and Kroot fell victim to the taint when they started co-habitating with infected humans. Obviously Necrons can't be affected, but I'm not sure about Orks, Eldar, and Squats.

Astartes have some organ or something that allows them to literally kill off foreign bodies in their blood. To my knowledge, they "Can" infect sisters, but that specific sister would likely get shot instantly by other sisters. That leaves Chaos. Which I have no idea, and I don't think the fluff ever bothers to test.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, it's my understanding from the Fluff, that in the instances of a GSC outbreak, the Commisariat beings liberally spreading out the bolter shells to the head of anyone even suspected of carrying taint. Dial that up to 11, for Cadians, and their Elite stuff like Kasakin and the Scions. Scions and whatnot likely get daily blood tests to verify status, and if not, they are purged. It's not even a bad practice. You literally cannot contain the GSC like a virus. By the time you discover it, you likely have to execute the majority of the people involved and start over.

There really is no "faction" that is resistant to it, please correct me here. Even the tau and Kroot fell victim to the taint when they started co-habitating with infected humans. Obviously Necrons can't be affected, but I'm not sure about Orks, Eldar, and Squats.

Astartes have some organ or something that allows them to literally kill off foreign bodies in their blood. To my knowledge, they "Can" infect sisters, but that specific sister would likely get shot instantly by other sisters. That leaves Chaos. Which I have no idea, and I don't think the fluff ever bothers to test.

Orks can be infected, they sort of cycle through it back to ork eventually though. It's strongly suggested some marines had fallen to gsc in the scythes of the emperor as the cult had infected the gene stock they were recruiting from. I'd wager eldar and votann are just as corruptible genetically, but its a problem with eldar as they'd likely discover them psychically and reproduction cycle is slower.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Man, why don't they send Cadians and Kasrkin to handle Chaos outbreaks?

Probably for the same reason that Genestealer Cults aren't full of high-quality soldiers, but rather consist mostly of hive-dwellers? Why Grey Knights aren't present at every single daemonic incursion?

The numbers aren't there and the extent of the threat isn't known at the outset.

They're apparently perfectly incorruptible, or at least able to 100%, without fail, detect when someone is tainted and handle them accordingly.

With GSC, it isn't hard to detect when someone's tainted. It just requires genetic screening...which isn't feasibly done for an entire Hive City to be doing 100% of the time.

That's why GSC tend to thrive on the outskirts of society first, and then gradually move inwards. DKoK and Cadians are performing that screening.

Sometimes Cults (Chaos or Genestealer) get found early on, and eradicated.
Sometimes they don't, and are able to spread and worm their way into all sorts of places they shouldn't be.

Even if it's rare for a Kasrkin to be infected, is it rarer than a Primarch showing up?

But there's the rub:
If it's rare for a Kasrkin(or a Cadian or a Death Korpsman or a Catachan) to be infected, what do you realistically think the numbers would be for them to get an entire squad's worth?

It would be one thing if the Brood Brothers rules gave them a 0-1 limit of any subfaction keyworded unit. They don't. They just get access to those things in the same numbers that Guard themselves do.

It's why I've suggested that GSC should get their own "Brood Stormtrooper" in the past. Effectively the same thing as a Kasrkin or Scion, just with a Brood Brother flavor.

The thing that's so disappointing with people seeming to just want to lump onto my book is that there's the opportunity for so much activity in modeling, officially and unofficially.

Probably the biggest reason that genestealer cults don’t get access to more is business rather than lore.

Probably a good comparison is sisters of silence, there isn’t really a lore reason they couldn’t get access to more imperium vehicles. But GW won’t even throw them some basics to get them by.
But it does leave players wanting for stuff to buy.

Dudeface wrote:

Orks can be infected, they sort of cycle through it back to ork eventually though. It's strongly suggested some marines had fallen to gsc in the scythes of the emperor as the cult had infected the gene stock they were recruiting from. I'd wager eldar and votann are just as corruptible genetically, but its a problem with eldar as they'd likely discover them psychically and reproduction cycle is slower.

I'm glad you mentioned this, as there's a part of the GSC propogation that ends up with them actively targeting psykers as the cult grows larger.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Apple fox wrote:
Probably the biggest reason that genestealer cults don’t get access to more is business rather than lore.

Probably a good comparison is sisters of silence, there isn’t really a lore reason they couldn’t get access to more imperium vehicles. But GW won’t even throw them some basics to get them by.
But it does leave players wanting for stuff to buy.

There's 60 datasheets for Guard, not counting FW, per the product info.
GSC have access to 41, plus the majority of FW items.

What are you really thinking that they're missing?

This is the thing that I just don't bloody understand. Do you people not realize how huge of a range that GSC are currently getting to pull from out of Guard? This isn't like the CSM getting to take Plague Marines, Berzerkers, or Rubric Marines. This isn't like throwing in Imperial Agents.

Cutting out the world specific units and super-heavies still results in a huge pool of units.

So the issue with GSC Scions is that they already have far superior units? Who wants a storm trooper profile when you can take a Jackal or a Purestrain?

I mean, I assume you're talking single models here. There is kinda zero change the GSC takes an ENTIRE stormtrooper squad unawares and off their guard. Let along enough to field them as common units in an army.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So, it's my understanding from the Fluff, that in the instances of a GSC outbreak, the Commisariat beings liberally spreading out the bolter shells to the head of anyone even suspected of carrying taint. Dial that up to 11, for Cadians, and their Elite stuff like Kasakin and the Scions. Scions and whatnot likely get daily blood tests to verify status, and if not, they are purged. It's not even a bad practice. You literally cannot contain the GSC like a virus. By the time you discover it, you likely have to execute the majority of the people involved and start over.

There really is no "faction" that is resistant to it, please correct me here. Even the tau and Kroot fell victim to the taint when they started co-habitating with infected humans. Obviously Necrons can't be affected, but I'm not sure about Orks, Eldar, and Squats.

Astartes have some organ or something that allows them to literally kill off foreign bodies in their blood. To my knowledge, they "Can" infect sisters, but that specific sister would likely get shot instantly by other sisters. That leaves Chaos. Which I have no idea, and I don't think the fluff ever bothers to test.

Orks, Eldar, Tau and Sisters have all been infected in the lore - yes many races would kill them if they know but often the infected don't say (or even are fully aware). The infection wants you to go home and breed.

Its implied Marines can and have been infected, Custodes would be very hard to do....but can't see why they could not be. Both are not going to breed though so not a great host.

Chaos - depends on how corupted they are.

Only really Necrons that are immune I would think

One reason we don't see as much of it with other races is the same reason we tend to only see Cadians - GW can't make models for everything and the bulk of their lore focuses on the stuff they do make models for.


But yeah Genestealers are not specifically human focused. They are designed to infect and infiltrate any race they can. We see humans because they are dominant and by far the most commonly infected. Plus the nature of Imperial worlds and social setup makes it easier for cults to form.

Eldar are slow breeders so any Cult is going to take utterly ages to evolve and that means more chance of being found and less chance to spread.




Also I think its important to note that not all Cults get eaten. They grow and grow until the Swarm comes or they are destroyed; however if the Tyranids never come then nothing stops the Cult just spreading to other worlds and growing in size and power. I seem to recall that Cults Codex mentions one or two very large named cults that are quite firmly established and haven't been eaten.

Pretty much all the cult subfactions in the 8th and 9th codexes are well established cults that not only conquered their host worlds but are spreading and conquering others.

 Kanluwen wrote:

With GSC, it isn't hard to detect when someone's tainted. It just requires genetic screening...which isn't feasibly done for an entire Hive City to be doing 100% of the time.

That's why GSC tend to thrive on the outskirts of society first, and then gradually move inwards. DKoK and Cadians are performing that screening.

Infect the people doing the screening and get an inroad to security.

If it's rare for a Kasrkin(or a Cadian or a Death Korpsman or a Catachan) to be infected, what do you realistically think the numbers would be for them to get an entire squad's worth?

It would be one thing if the Brood Brothers rules gave them a 0-1 limit of any subfaction keyworded unit. They don't. They just get access to those things in the same numbers that Guard themselves do.

Obviously Necrons can't be affected, but I'm not sure about Orks, Eldar, and Squats.

We've definitely seen one craftworld get thoroughly cult-ified, but it was something of a special case. Generally, eldar are resistant to cult infestation because their psychic abilities help them detect when someone is infected. Warp spiders (not the aspect warriors) might also help with this? Low reproductive rates don't help the cult out, but I feel like that's probably a secondary concern given that you could theoretically just hypnotize and/or kiss the whole craftworld given enough time.

Orks are sort of similar to eldar in that they have a knack for telling when someone is behaving in an "unorky" fashion. So it's not that individuals are immune but rather that groups are good at identifying and stamping out genestealer infestations early.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Bluntly, I'm not going to answer any of that other than to tell you to go read the Shadowvaults book for KT.

You're NOT getting Kasrkin. You're NOT getting Cadians. They're executing GSC infected. You're not getting DKoK because of the way reproduction works for their homeworld.

With the fact that we now have what seems to be confirmation that yes, the PDF is considered part of the Guard apparatus? We have stats and gear for PDF:
It's called the Infantry Squad.

Another good point- and BTW, our campaign did include detection mechanics; these could uncover sleeper agents, but not deserters, because deserters would no longer be present to be destroyed.

I'm not sure I have the Shadowvaults book.

But I will say, you've got this tone back; I always try to attend to my tone, though not being perfect, I do tend to slip up from time to time. I often come back later and address it if I think I've overstepped. In my last post, I specifically referenced this attempt at respectful communications, and this how you respond. So okay, if that's how you want to go, I can be rude too:

In point of fact, I AM getting Kasrkin, and I AM getting Cadians, because right now, the rules say I can, and neither I, nor any of the folks I play with, nor GW, nor any of the other numerous folks in this thread who happen to disagree with you really care what you think. ANd if you walk to a table on pick-up nights and face a GSC that includes Cadians, you'll either put up with it, or you'll be the one who sulks away from the table, because in this moment, Dems da Rulz!

See? I can be rude too.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Infect the people doing the screening and get an inroad to security.

I cannot stress enough how well done the "A New Life" short was for Hammer and Bolter in this regard. The GSC can never truly gain total domination of a planet, but they can get a few highly placed officers or officials and get them in place for just that right moment.

It's the kind of thing that stratagems are literally meant to be.

I imagine once you infect one member of a squad getting to the other members becomes a lot easier.

I'd imagine that the point you can infect one member of a squad, the rest are likely dead.

I'm all for some 0-X limits though. I wish GW would do more of that rather than the dumb Rule of Three.

0-X, "If you take X, you can take a Y", etc would all be aces.

I like Rule of Three as a very general policy.

It's darn simple AND its so simple it stops GW messing with it every edition. 0-X limits can be fantastic too but they are a nightmare when the parent firm changes the entire rule base every 3 years.

What was a 0-3 one edition is a 0-6 next edition then a 0-2 the edition after.

That might be all logical balance wise but its a nightmare collection wise if the numbers are bouncing around.


Rule of Three at least gives you a super simple baseline to work with. Though I do agree there are some situations where it seems daft on both sides of allowing too many of a thing or not allowing enough of a thing. In theory you'd balance that by making the rules suitable; however in practice it might be easier to allow more or less of a limit.

We do kind of have that, though right now its basically named characters that are 0-1 and battleline that's 0-6 (with the condition of having an army total of X battleline units)