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I would take an Enginseer over a Primaris Psyker because he is 3 points cheaper and has a much more useful ability for the purposes of this army.

Er, yes. All of those things can be a tax as well depending on the army. If we were an infantry army, that would be different, but we're not, so I don't see your point.

Every codex army intentionally takes units to most efficiently spend its CP.

What useful ability? Repair? Ok, where do you find opponents who shoot every single one of your onagers a bit so you could repair? The most units I had injured was 2. And I always have 3-4 repairmen because they're just tax for CP detachments. So 2-3 of them are just standing around jacking off. Meanwhile psykers can spam smite ever damn turn. I'd take a Primaris psyker any day of the week: deny, mortals wounds(Even useable melee combat). Yes please.

Who said we're not an infantry army? Most of our army is infantry(10:4)! We have Onagers, Kastelans and Chicken walkers that aren't infantry only. Everything else is INFANTRY. Wanna guess why AdMech are doing poorly in the tournament scene? Almost every infantry unit we have sucks ass, therefor most of our choices suck ass.

And we have dragoons(2 turn 1, 1 every other turn) and Kastelans(3 turn 1, 2 every other turn) for the CP hogs already. Why bother with the suboptimal balistarii? Not to mention all other stratagems: re-roll, autopass morale, explode vehicles, etc.
Where are you getting all those CP. I run out of mine by turn 2 despite starting with 9 at least.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
What useful ability? Repair? Ok, where do you find opponents who shoot every single one of your onagers a bit so you could repair? The most units I had injured was 2. And I always have 3-4 repairmen because they're just tax for CP detachments. So 2-3 of them are just standing around jacking off. Meanwhile psykers can spam smite ever damn turn. I'd take a Primaris psyker any day of the week: deny, mortals wounds(Even useable melee combat). Yes please.

Who said we're not an infantry army? Most of our army is infantry(10:4)! We have Onagers, Kastelans and Chicken walkers that aren't infantry only. Everything else is INFANTRY. Wanna guess why AdMech are doing poorly in the tournament scene? Almost every infantry unit we have sucks ass, therefor most of our choices suck ass.

And we have dragoons(2 turn 1, 1 every other turn) and Kastelans(3 turn 1, 2 every other turn) for the CP hogs already. Why bother with the suboptimal balistarii? Not to mention all other stratagems: re-roll, autopass morale, explode vehicles, etc.
Where are you getting all those CP. I run out of mine by turn 2 despite starting with 9 at least.

Dude, there is no way you're convincing me that opponents kill everything exactly all the time. You will end up with a damaged vehicle more often than not, and you can repair them. (Probably not 3-4 though.)

Oh yes. Smite. Got to kill that random Conscript or Horror parked in the middle of the field. >_>

Looking at my points, most of my army are in vehicles.

There were no Kastelans in that Ballistarii list.

Here:

If you want the math for why it works, you can dig it up a few pages back.

Smiting is better than doing nothing(Aka what 2-3 of my repairmen end up doing most of the turns). Also denying is a HUGE part of why Primaris Psykers are awesome.

Also, I'm not talking about what's viable. I already know that non-infantry is viable. However it doesn't change the fact that were designed to be a infantry close combat army with artilery for backup.

Infantry:
Cawl
Dominus
Enginseer
Breachers
Destroyers
Fulgurites
Corpuscarii
Rangers
Vanguard
Infiltrators
Ruststalkers
Total:11

Non-infantry:
Kastelans
Onagers
Balistarii
Dragoons
Total:4

The fact that GW fudged up on the balance of said infantry, doesn't change the fact that we were supposed to be an infantry heavy army. However with the tame changes we are still forced into pure Vehicle armies.

Also I'm talking about pure armies as I think Imperium and Chaos keywords should be banned from matched play. Which is why I need 3-4 repairmen in every list. Leading to 2-3 of them doing nothing as either:
1. Every unit with multiple wounds dies (the opponent shoots at the multiwound units until he kills them and then shoots infantry as I can't repair them). So the repairmen are doing nothing. Psykers are spamming meanwhile
2. 1 or very rarelly 2 units are damaged. Still 2-3 are doing nothing. Psykers are still spamming meanwhile

I like your list suzuteo it has a clear purpose it's ofc a spamm list but it can do some things. It still. Good example of the ad mech issues. You are forced to take big units to buff them effectively . While when you play you need options. 6+6 ironstriders are really hard to maneuver in any table and lately most tables are heavy on buildings as it should. On paper the list can perform though I'd take one neutronage not 3 icarus but ok. Unfortunately it won't perform as it should in table as it would on paper.

It's very nice don't get me wrong but it's also not flexible. ! A Magnus Terminator generally a good invu list will cause you trouble. And ofc I would play it but it's also so expensive to even try it. Yet it's probably the most mobile still cp hungry. It's a good dragoon spamm sure but that's it

I d remove one dragoon and one balistarii or an icarus something for 8-10 stygies staff priests(counter or inf mortals etc.). Just a thought!!

@rvd1ofakind
Given the choice of ONE Enginseer against ONE Psyker, I would do the Enginseer. But if we need 4 HQs total , I will probably want Cawl and Enginseer, then 2 Psykers.

Denying is not that great for AdMech. We keep running back into the same issue: Our infantry suck, so we have to go heavy on vehicles. These vehicles only work if you are very far away. Your Psyker therefore is rarely going to be within 24" of that Weirdboy or Magnus.

I honestly wouldn't think too much on how AdMech was in 7E. It's clearly a mechanized army in 8E.

@Yoda79
Yeah, it's definitely a theorycraft list. 6 Dragoons are hard to maneuver on some boards for sure; I always recommend 4, but the incentive to go to 6 is so strong...

Well magnus usually is within 18'' to cast his 18'' smite :p

so How easy would it be to slap 2 lascannons on kataphrons? FW Tarantulas are stupid expensive but would be great additions to my army.

Balistarii don't need CP rolls, really.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Balistarii don't need CP rolls, really.

Unless you want to move them and fire at no penalty Though i guess thats no different to standard dreadnaughts.

I dunno, personally anything that can move and fire without penalty should be behind LOS blocking terrain turn one. My dunecrawlers dont get hit until turn two if i go second. Kataphrons should be no different, they have the range and you can put them anywhere in ruins as well because they're infantry, unlike you're robots, crawlers and ironstriders. I Usually put my robots out in the open because they're tough as nails turn one lol

I can't seem to make a list that uses elimination volley. I really want it to be a thing. The price reductions almost make it fit. But with 9 CP ... you are down to 3 by the end of turn 1 in a double battalion list.

Wulfey wrote:
I can't seem to make a list that uses elimination volley. I really want it to be a thing. The price reductions almost make it fit. But with 9 CP ... you are down to 3 by the end of turn 1 in a double battalion list.

My list now has a Patrol of Cawl, 4 big robots, and 5 gravbots. Then a Battalion of Dark Angels or Ravenguard. I do use Elimination Volley. Not saying it's great but I'm having good enough experience.

My list is mostly unchanged from before. Just had to cut some Guardsmen to make up for the Earthshakers gaining 28 points apiece.



Alternative, if I wanted to go heavier AdMech:

But it's strictly inferior. You trade 30 wounds with rerollable Mortars for 15 wounds with Arc Rifles and a repairman.

I am toying with something very similar. If I go to LVO I will just buy 3 basilisks. I kept trying to write an enginseer / STYGIES / rangers list, and the HQ slot taxes were brutal. And 5 STYGIES rangers just aren't tougher or shooter than 10 guardsmen with firstrankfiresecondrankfire. I would actually take another Neutron over 2 more dragoons (cause those are the models I have painted). firstrankfiresecondrankfire really makes rangers seem bad.




Also, I think Celestine is pretty much dead in admech lists at this point. Only way to bring her is to also bring boltergirls. But that Sisters strategem has me thinking. Every time a 'character' dies, you can spend a CP to do an act of faith on a 2+. That means every time a geminae dies, you can do an YNNARI style shot in the middle of your opponent's turn. Which is hilarious. Or you can get an opponent's turn move to move celestine out of line of sight, which is also lame. This list would use the bolter girls as screens in cover somewhere and for CP taxes. Since sisters don't need any of that regiment nonsense, a 30 point company commander can still be my WL and get Kurov's in the sister's detachment. Every time a geminae dies, on a 2+ I get a Ynnarri interrupt. That strategem is straight abuse with Celestine. Let's say 2 geminae die and I start taking wounds on celestine. Then on turn 3 another geminae gets up. Then Celestine dies. I can then use the strategem to do the healing act of faith and get celestine back up with d3 wounds on my opponent's turn if 1 geminae is still left.

You still need a pure Sisters detachment to unlock the stratagem you're using.

There is no better choice than guard battalion. And that gives cheap command points +3 best infantry with orders. Bodies wounds can move fast obj secure will survive cause unless enemy got horde army will ignore them and it's a non brainer.

Eethshakers where 80 points op. 110 basilisk are ok for their points but not to go crazy. If you don't have pshyckers to buff their defence they die easy. So hence the list as I have already said from day one needs max two of them that fit inside the battalion guard giving extreme command points and regained points. 3 you don't need and if you need more neutronager moving firing better all the way.

Ad mech serious issue is mobility . If enemy has cc is tough and you forced to stay in dakka corner we got issues. Outrider stygies for me works wonders. From as simple as 2*1 lasc b and 1*3 dragoon to an extreme heavy 1*3 lasc 1*3 lasc 1*4-6 dragoon.
Enginseer helps on healing and balistarii with -1 to hit can survive less guns to need healing and act as superior fast unit for late game screener etc.
And ofc sperhead for our superb vehicles best of.

Just so in comparison with other armies atm we are in a good point standing. Our units don't cost much rather they underperform. I will agree that big units will provide some consistency like the 6 balistarii with hit buff but will not provide wins. Why you got a lascannons not the cheapest still good with bs 3+ and you plan to buff hit.??? That's not a plan. It's nice it can work in cases but.
Some goes for icarus ND onager question. Sure icarus seems ok on paper but after the flier fix we won't be facing 20 flier. If hit is the issue bs 3+ on our armies with enough rerolls even canticle rerolls of 1 come close to most other armies.
Not to mention Cawl etc. So I was to remove Robots to gain some mobility I would go towards onager spamm.
As we did prior to codex. We turned to robots for volume of fire resulting to mortals. Codexes introduced 2+ invu once more in game and there is the issue.

So to recap if we invest in mobility and still want to to be ad mech 3 neutronagers and 3 icarus will deliver no matter what.
Dragoons balistarii and ofc staff priests make a superb list.

And after the latest point reduction breachers are superb screeners for dakka lines move shoot. And even if you decide now to make a troop army you can. 10 man plasm snipers arc omnispex or data all valid. With canticle you got n elite troop choise not bad at all. For those points are one of the cheapest elite troop choise and with some breachers can be a complete troop army. The guns we got for troops in 10 man's now with data tether can make valid detachment.

Brigade for troops with Max cp and one unit to super buff can be extreme . Breachers with reroll ones canticle 1cp for +1 invu +1 attack each turn. Makes them with healing tough as any for 120 points. Won't hurt much but if you know the hard to die is enough.
That's what you missed screener. And can move and can shoot and can defend and cc. Not superb but can do it for two rounds and if you play ad mech you know two rounds is what you need.

6 onagers shooting for two rounds or any combination with and or ironstriders makes this list unkillable. Stygies Dragoons go heavy breachers stygies or mars go heavy and onwbers go heavy all can move shoot take some techpriests a d max a brigade. Party. The reduced troops cost makes it viable. Not superb but viable . Viable enough to make you wonder now
High cp list with lots of troops special wepaons etc. A semi list purposed one with focused units like priests dragoons etc. And or soup pure dakka. Spearhead Cawl thing.

But it's not bad to be able to have a battalion for 199 points. Good bad it's 3+ cp to use where you like. You decide to take it a weight and use cp or make it battalion worthy with breachers snipers dunno what is up to you but from super competitive till super friendly there are more lists to be made now.

As said ad. Mech has a long road to get proper units and abilities but as of new points you might be able to field a plan.

Coming up next . Full mobile list vanguard's breachers Onagers Dragoons priests.

The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them

gendoikari87 wrote:
The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them

It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them

It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech

Depends how many vehicles you have lol. At least you can run an enginseer into a vehicle and potentially deal 3-5 damage from 2 attacks

Octovol wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
The repair ability isn’t useless. Yeah people will shoot an onager to death, sometimes they fail and you can make them waste a few more shots. It also removes the ability of your opponent to shoot them to a lower profile and be able to worry less about them

It's useless when you are forced to have 3-4 of guys who repair when playing pure admech

Depends how many vehicles you have lol. At least you can run an enginseer into a vehicle and potentially deal 3-5 damage from 2 attacks

lol good luck on that 5+ to hit with the servo arm

# of damaged vehicles barelly changes with the number of vehicles present. Any competant opponent will focus them 1 at a time if he can.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
# of damaged vehicles barelly changes with the number of vehicles present. Any competant opponent will focus them 1 at a time if he can.

depends on los though

Obviously, but what will happen more often?
a) You'll have 3-4 injured vehicles
b) You'll have opponents within 18'' to smite or 24'' to deny. (especially as an artilery army that people want to put in combat really bad)

a) will happen once every 10 games maybe. b) will happen ALL THE TIME.

Depends on how much terrain you’re using

With the leaks out there, I have been tinkering a bit. We still have mediocre Troops and benefit from Guard additions - but not for the artillery anymore, due to the price hike on ESB.

Instead, just using them for bodies and CP. Likely will put them up front, Snipetarii behind them, and Cawl and gunline behind that with plenty of space between.

POST-CHAPTER APPROVED

Mars Battalion +3CP

HQ:
Cawl
[240]

Enginseer
[47]

Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]

(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]

(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus
[85]

Heavy:
(6) Kastelan Robots
Triple Phosphor
[660]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]

Onager Dunecrawler
Neutron Laser & CHS
[140]

[1482]

Stygies Aux -1CP

Fast Attack:
(4) Sydonian Dragoons
[272]

[272]

Cadian Battalion +3CP

HQ:
Company Commander
Kurov's Aquila
[30]

Company Commander
Grand Strategist
[30]

Troops:
Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]

Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]

Infantry Squad
Lascannon
[60]

[240]

[1994]

Three Lascannons because my Neutronagers sometimes struggle and also wind up doing anti-air work with PDI, so having a few more ways to knock wounds off heavies is useful. Just having bodies between me and assault armies will be good though. The Stygies Aux gets me a Goondozer, with hopes that it will roam the board causing panic. Wrathbots & Cawl - standard protocol there. Triple Snipetarii because with re-rolls on six of them, I can actually knock out support characters that seem to be a thing more now than ever. Sadly, most of the ones worth killing have an invuln. They are the first thing up on my chopping block. May replace them with ...something... I have no idea. They fill out another Battalion and unless I strip the guns, I will likely drop in CP, which I can't afford. I could use those 150pt to buy a Tank Commander or something for added firepower. Haven't decided yet. Still looks like pure AdMech isn't happening.

I don’t think we have mediocre troops anymore. For 3 points more than a guardsmen you get +1 str +3” range +1 BS and +1 armor with an invuln save assault 2 plasma guns with range 18. All for 7 points. That’s all approaching cheaper versions of tempestus scions.

What they lack is deep strike and transports

7pts for plasma?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
7pts for plasma?

no 7 points for the ranger

gendoikari87 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
7pts for plasma?

no 7 points for the ranger

" For 3 points more than a guardsmen you get +1 str +3” range +1 BS and +1 armor with an invuln save assault 2 plasma guns with range 18"

Then this sentence is false.

Access to a plasma for the same cost