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Yes, internal balance does seem to be pretty awful. Eldar have had this issue forever with their units.

The problem is that alot of the issues with Eldar stuff can't be fixed with just points changes or a strategem. Units like Banshees need an entire overhaul in how they're expected to function. It's frustrating.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
My suspicion is that this codex is going to be very tame compared to the previous releases.

The old dynamic isn't here. Phil Kelly doesn't get to jack off onto blank paper and then turn it in as "the new Eldar codex" anymore. There's a team working on this that is very conciencious about the power level Eldar have enjoyed throughout the years.

I expect this release to be thoroughly middle of the pack in regards to competitive viability.

GW was fapping off to Eldar way before Phil Kelly.

The attributes sure sound fluffy. If you don't know the particulars of how those Craftworlds function.

The Biel-Tan shows this well - an attribute that's like having an Autarch around all the time is really fluffy (but might be a bit OP). So they restrict it to what almost all CWE use. Probably not even realizing that, of the CWE things that don't rely on them, most of them are Biel-Tan's core force.

I'm a pretty disappointed with the biel-tan attribute. I really wish they would've made it an increase to charge range or re-rolling advances or something like that. The re-roll 1 to hit on shuriken weapons is just really confusing considering that Autarchs are a big part of Biel-tan and their rules are incredible redundant now.

On the other hand the avatar may be a little better now. Hopefully it'll receive a slight points reduction, but the court of the young king ability has some potential with banshees and scorpions. Banshees would be at +6'' on a charge so you could get pretty far and wrap a unit


Another confusing thing is why do the avatar's abilities cost so many CP's? Most of the Imp Guard abilities only cost 1 and do about just as much.

Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

momerathe wrote:
Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

Why do you hate Ulthwe?

Yeah, and since the Biel Tan one basically matches up to the image passed around in the rumor thread we can pretty well assume the other two are correct (or close to correct) as well. So unless we see a REALLY good deployment stratagem or something else juicy there is absolutely no reason to take Craftworlds competitively that I can see...and for those who like fluffy rules or for those of us who don't play one of these five Craftworlds, there is also no reason to take CWE fluff-wise. Pretty much an all-around failure to deliver on anything exciting, fun, or interesting. Maybe Eldar deserve this after 7th...lol.

Dionysodorus wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

Why do you hate Ulthwe?

I think it's a better representation of Black Guardians than what they actually got. Also, they're less likely to have an Autarch for the bonus to overlap with.

momerathe wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

Why do you hate Ulthwe?

I think it's a better representation of Black Guardians than what they actually got. Also, they're less likely to have an Autarch for the bonus to overlap with.

Sure, but it's still bad and if you want to run lots of Guardians you would just go with one of the other two depending on how big your squads are. Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply. It doesn't play nice with either Autarchs or Guide. People would generally prefer Ulthwe or Alatoic even without the bizarre restriction to shuriken weapons. Like, the Salamanders' Tactic blows this out of the water and lots of people think Raven Guard's is still better.

Yeah, you're right. My main point was that, ignoring how effective or not they are, the attributes don't reflect the army composition of the craftworlds they've been given to - and they don't just fail to reflect it, they reflect other craftworlds' better than their own! I don't know what kind of weird mental disconnect was going on in their heads.

I'm gonna guess that Alaitoc's -1 to hit attribute will only apply to Infantry units aswell. Having Grav-tanks with Vectored Engines and Fliers at -2 to hit sounds a bit unlikely.

Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ as your Warlord and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?

-

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?

-

If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?

-

If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?

I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord

For example, you can have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger and Battalion detachment of CWE units
As long as your Warlord is Yvraine, your WHOLE army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan, because the Patrol Detachment has a non-CW unit in it (Yvraine)

Someone please correct me if I am wrong

-

well as it is right now - if you have the ynari keyword you lose battle focus/power from pain/ ect. I think it's reasonable to assume you will lose your army trait as well. Thought we don't know that for sure. It's also possible that ynnari might get their own army trait.

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?

-

If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?

I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord
For example, if you have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger, but you have a Battalion detachment of CWE, as long as you Warlord is Yvraine, your army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan

Someone correct me if I am wrong

-

"If the Warlord of your army is either Yvraine, the Visarch or the Yncarne then – with the exception of <Haemonculus Coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine – any Aeldari unit can also be Ynnari.

Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain. Instead, Ynnari Infantry and Ynnari Biker units gain the Strength from Death ability, as described below.

If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword."

Looks like your right, to me that means if I want Yvraine the units in the detachment with her will be Ynarri but not benefit from Craftworld traits but my other detachments can receive both.

However I also use an Avatar of Khaine, so units in his detachment will benefit from their Craftworld traits but not be Ynarri.

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Aa things stand my Biel-Tan will continue to be used as Ynarri. Strength from Death gives me so much more tactical options and makes the army much more interesting to use.

I'm confused, What stops a player from fielding his army with the Biel-tan or Ulthwe attribute AND being Ynnari?
Does every unit in a detachment have to have the <Craftworld> keyword in order to get the attribute?
If so, could you not just take a Patrol detachment with a Ynnari HQ and a cheap Troop and all other detachments be 100% CWE?

-

If you want to use Ynarri you need to use one of the three Ynarri characters as your Warlord. I'm assuming that if you have a unit without the Craftworld keyword you will lose your traits.
Is this not how the other armies with a Codex handle it?

I thought attributes/traits were detachment based, while Ynnari was army based and only required an Ynnari Warlord

For example, you can have Patrol Detachment with only Yvraine and 5 Dire Avenger and Battalion detachment of CWE units
As long as your Warlord is Yvraine, your WHOLE army is Ynnari and as long as all units in your Battalion are CWE, those units can be both Beil-tan AND Ynnari. It is only the 5 Dires that cannot be Biel-tan, because the Patrol Detachment has a non-CW unit in it (Yvraine)

Someone please correct me if I am wrong

-

For all the other armies so far, traits have only required a battleforged detachment to work.

So (under the current rules) You could have Yvraine as your warlord, in a patrol detachment with... I dunno, some Harlequin Troupes. Then have a seperate Ulthwe detachment, with a Farseer and guardians and Jetbikes and War Walkers and whatever. And all the Ulthwe stuff would get the 6+++, while Yvraine and the Harlequins don't. Everyone from both detachments would get Strength from Death.

I say under the current rules, because we haven't seen the traits pages from the codex yet. They may have a specific line that says "If your warlord is Ynnari, then your whole army can not gain a trait" or something like that. People have asked this a couple pages back, and I gave the same response.

TLDR: Yes, unless they change the rules, which we wont know until codex released.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DivineVisitor wrote:


However I also use an Avatar of Khaine, so units in his detachment will benefit from their Craftworld traits but not be Ynarri.

True. And you can't put him in the same detachment as Yvraine either. So you would need to have 3 detachments -

Detachment 1) Yvraine as warlord, + filler units for requirements (Harlequins probably best option, until they get codex/traits)
Detachment 2) Avatar as HQ, + filler units for requirements (... I would say put in haemonculous units, but would mean avatar gets no craftworld trait. He doesn't benefit much from them anyway though.)
Detachment 3) Craftworld units.

Am I missing something?

If your warlord is Ynarri, all units in the army gain the SfD ability and lose whatever army wide ability they had.

That means that if you have Ynarri Warlord your units cannot benefit from both SfD and whatever attribute they would otherwise have had.

Is this not correct?

Drake003 wrote:
Am I missing something?

If your warlord is Ynarri, all units in the army gain the SfD ability and lose whatever army wide ability they had.

That means that if you have Ynarri Warlord your units cannot benefit from both SfD and whatever attribute they would otherwise have had.

Is this not correct?

No, the Ynnari rules only say they lose Battle Focus. Most armies get two special rules, one from their faction and one from their subfaction. Space Marines get ATSKNF and Tactics. CSMs get Death to the False Emperor and Traits. AdMech get Canticles and Dogmas. Craftworld Eldar will have Battle Focus and Attributes. If the codex looks like other codices, then Ynnari would get SfD and Attributes.

Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.

I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok just seen the previous post. I think I understand but this really isn't very clear when reading and no doubt will be subject to challenge by some of my opponents.

Drake003 wrote:
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.

I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules

I don't see where it says anything about Craftworld Attributes?

momerathe wrote:
Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

agreed. Just like marines, What GW imagines, and how the traits actually interact with list building are (craft)worlds apart.

Also of note is the cost of some of these stratagems; not sure why they need to be pricey when CWE are unlikely to have many CP. “look at this killer combo; blow your points in one phase of the game and have no rerolls left; it will be epic!”, except it likely won’t be.

Drake003 wrote:
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.

I don't see how this allows you to have the Craftworld wide rules and Ynarri rules


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok just seen the previous post. I think I understand but this really isn't very clear when reading and no doubt will be subject to challenge by some of my opponents.

Your opponents can't challenge it... there is literally no basis in the current rules to challenge it. Strength From Death replaces Battle Focus, that's it. Craftworld traits are a whole separate category. Under the current rules (which might change, see my previous two posts on this exact same subject...sigh) You can have Strength From Death AND a Craftworld Trait, no problem.

There is (currently) no ambiguity on this subject, the rules are crystal clear. However, they may change, as we HAVE NOT SEEN the rules for craftworl traits yet. They may specifically say that Ynnari cannot get them. We just don't know. Wait a week and find out.

Appreciate your comments Niiru.

So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?

If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.

Sorry if I'm being slow on this.

Drake003 wrote:
Appreciate your comments Niiru.

So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?

If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.

Sorry if I'm being slow on this.

I think it is because the CW attribute can only be given to a detachment if all units in the detachment can take it. Since Yvraine cannot take the Biel-tan attribute, it disqualifies any other units in the same detachment from taking it as well.
So while she makes the whole army Ynnari, she has to be in a different detachment so that the other one can claim to be Biel-tan.

-

Drake003 wrote:
Appreciate your comments Niiru.

So why then do you need to take a separate detachment for the Ynarri HQ seperate from the rest of the Craftworld units?

If they all gain the Ynarri key world and just lose the abilities but not attributes then surely you can take say Yvraine to lead a Ulthwe army in an Ulthwe detachment.

Sorry if I'm being slow on this.

The other codices only give a detachment a trait if every unit in the detachment has the right keyword. Yvraine herself doesn't have <Craftworld>, so she might prevent her detachment from getting a trait. But of course the codex could say that the Ynnari HQs don't stop you from getting a trait (the Chaos and Guard codices do this kind of thing).

The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing. A lot of 8th ed is extremely troops-driven, both in rewards for CP and the relative power of high model count low point units.

Most of the competitive armies are driven by access to good, cheap troops. AM have it, chaos has it and while SM is more dubious in that regard, Girlyman not only brings his own command points to compensate, but also flips the math so much it's out of line with every other aura in the game.

So without guardians, our hopes really have to come to Dire Avengers and Rangers. I think dire avengers won't qualify as 'good' until they see something like 10 points per model, which seems unlikely (even though they'd still be worse than brimstones, conscripts, noise marines and cultists). They'll probably be passable at 12, but certainly not amazing.

Rangers are my bigger hope. I think if they got to 13-15 ppm (25%-30% decrease, not unheard of), we could get some real use out of them. They are durable for elves, would be cheap-ish due to their low numbers and counter a real issue in the meta, which is the power of characters. They would be solid for removing commissars, maelific lords and, if we're talking 3-6 units of them, a genuine threat to more potent characters. They wouldn't earn back their points in shooting very often, but you'd be taking them for command points and their ability to appear on and then camp objectives.

drakerocket wrote:
The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing.

Considering that all the CW attributes we have seen so far have all been beneficial to Guardians, I am not surprised that they stayed the same price
I'll be disappointed if Windrider and Rangers stay the same cost, though. Or if Dire Avengers are any more than 13ppm

Beneficial, yes, but they aren't good even if they are inched up. There is very little traits can do for them to make up for points. Plenty of armies have gotten price breaks *and* other things to improve under-preforming units (LRs for guard, Noise Marines for chaos, etc).

I mean, it's possible battle focus will get some amazing improvement to blow it out of the water or some new psychic power will make taking a blob of guardians super good. But I doubt it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Biel Tan should have Iyanden's attribute; Iyanden should have Ulthwe's; and Ulthwe should have Biel Tan's.

Like, re-rolling 1s to hit is just not that big of a deal. It's a 17% offense boost which lots of armies can get in aura form pretty cheaply.

[Post-initial-submit-edit] Forget my wrong calculation here.. removed it after being corrected.

However, I see room for all Craftworld attributes so far. Ulthwe is the most versatile, but I could imagine going for different Craftworld detachements with different unit selections. At a pinch you can go for one Defender Guardian unit with Ulthwe attribute to defend an objective close to your own deployment zone while going for one in the opponent's zone with a unit of Biel-Tan Dire Avengers. The one unit is slightly more defensive while the other one is slightly more offensive. Both are just minor adjustments but you can not expect a detachement-wide attribute to double the output/resistance of a single unit.

The attributes might be a little bit underwhelming at first but I like that they don't restrict your army composition and keep it simple. We'll see what it's worth in total if the full codex is revealed.