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Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander





 Xenomancers wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Irbis wrote:

I still don't get why, after hitting perfect formula in 5th edition, both from balance and usability standpoint (no frakking constant page-flipping for one ) they went back to garbage, useless 'armory' for 6th and 7th, then, when it clearly didn't worked, they brought in back some bits from 5th, except leaving all the best points out. Does GW pay writers for making books so useless you wear them out with constant use (or tear out pages in rage/to make them usable) just so people need to buy a new one...?

If they really made Primaris weapons all unique just to patch holes in this abomination of a system (which is pretty silly, I mean, anyone can show any difference between bolt carbine, auto-bolter and that third bolt gun which eludes me now?) then whoever is responsible for it should be chainsworded off his seat and a competent writer brought back in...


Honestly, I really like the current layout of the codecies.

I don't use the codex for points (battle scribe is a life saver) but it takes quite a lot of work to figure out how much a build costs from being naive to a codex. You need to figure out the weapons it can take from the data sheet. Find the base cost in 1 place for the tank and then add up all the weapons options from possibly several other places. I hate it.


I find that I don't ever really simultaneously need the points and the statcards. The 7e way, with the points on each datasheet was awful. The 5e Codecies were okay [with the caveat that things like Orders and Lumbering Behemoth were enumerated on the codex page, but the AVs and BS were in the back], but I still like 8th better for ease of use. All the rules are together for use in the game, all the points are together for making my list.

CA is a little irritating, since I have to cross-reference what's been updated and what hasn't. I wish they offered a PDF of the points cost tables, or something. But it's not that bad.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/08 03:50:42


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





the poitns issues is a pain, to the point I've ended up using battlescribe for my lists but with battle scribe well.. it's less important too so *shrugs*

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





stratigo wrote:
Breton wrote:
marines would still deathball without the auras, we’d just call it castle or gunline or something. Close combat sucks this edition, so you won’t see the assault units splitting off to rush while the shooters provide covering fire to soften up targets. And if everything is going to shoot you might as well keep it all together so it can cover for each other.


Close combat is amazing, you just need half a brain to make it work and no brain to put a bunch of guns next to an aura and then roll dice. And marines aren't a CC army.


You have numbers to back this up? I've done the math on multiple armies basic close combat units to back up my claim. I'm assuming you've done so as well and didn't just make a wild baseless claim based on your feelings not data?
Hormaguants were bad. Assault Marines were bad. Sisters were bad. Ork Boys were on the bad side of OK- because they had special rules to make up for most of what Close Combat lost in general rules. The only good basic close combat unit I tested that was good were bloodletters - and they were equipped far differently than - and closer to - the elite close combat units,


As for Marines not being a CC army, I'll be sure to let the Blood Angels, Raven Guard, and Space Wolves know they've been playing wrong for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't use the codex for points (battle scribe is a life saver) but it takes quite a lot of work to figure out how much a build costs from being naive to a codex. You need to figure out the weapons it can take from the data sheet. Find the base cost in 1 place for the tank and then add up all the weapons options from possibly several other places. I hate it.


It's much easier on an e-Codex. You can just tap on the options and get a popup with the points costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just finish the build. I think it looks spectacular. I was at first going to make the plasma version but the large barrel looks so good on it I had to use the Las. I also noticed the "frag launchers" are slightly different. Essentially they are a modified krakstorm launcher with frags for ordinance. So maybe GW does understand their weapons systems. Or maybe not...



Magnetize. Assuming the unit/model/Primaris line is going to stick around the various editions and various builds are going to favor Plasma over Las and Las over Plasma from time to time. And I'm not buying two to be able to use one either way.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/07/08 05:44:15


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain







an assault marine squad of 4 marines, and 1 sergent the sergent can take a power weapon and one marine can take an eviscirator. this is, almost, on paper equal in hitting power to a 5 man tac marine squad. each grunts gets 2 S4 AP - attacks. with the "heavy weapons" guy hitting harder, but having less shots. (I'm comparing this to a lascanon as it's the most similer BTW. and yeah I'll get back to that) and the sergent could potentially likewise have a harder hitting weapon.

and thats p[retty typical of a lot of the CC units out there. they simply hit, as hard as their ranged counterpart.. and at that point, they're wasted points. sure I COULD take an assault squad, but I'm proably better off taking a tactical marine squad instead. I'll hit harder, and more often. (and yes I know Tac squads aren;t that great eaither, I'm making a point)

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:


an assault marine squad of 4 marines, and 1 sergent the sergent can take a power weapon and one marine can take an eviscirator. this is, almost, on paper equal in hitting power to a 5 man tac marine squad. each grunts gets 2 S4 AP - attacks. with the "heavy weapons" guy hitting harder, but having less shots. (I'm comparing this to a lascanon as it's the most similer BTW. and yeah I'll get back to that) and the sergent could potentially likewise have a harder hitting weapon.

and thats p[retty typical of a lot of the CC units out there. they simply hit, as hard as their ranged counterpart.. and at that point, they're wasted points. sure I COULD take an assault squad, but I'm proably better off taking a tactical marine squad instead. I'll hit harder, and more often. (and yes I know Tac squads aren;t that great eaither, I'm making a point)


I think you and I are arguing the same point - here are the numbers I already did in the Sister's thread:

20 Hormaguants Dealing - we'll split the difference between points (30) vs base size (12) - 40 attacks 20 hits, 6.6 wounds, 2.2 after armor saves. (I skipped the rerolled 1's - which guants get from the talons and potentially mob size, because I didn't give it to the marines, and won't to the orks who would have likely had it - it turns out to be about 1/2-3/4 of a wound)
Receiving 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5.88 Wounds received

15 Ork Boys Dealing (again splitting points(20) vs base size(10) 45 attacks, 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 after armor saves.
Receiving 21 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5.88 Wounds received.

15 Bloodletters (including -Leaper) 1st turn - 33 attacks 22 hits, 18.48 wounds 15.52 after saves -
6.0984 after saves if we pretend their hellblade isn't a power weapon equivalent which was part of my point about basic assault troops not getting save mod's making close combat not very good.
Second turn. 16 attacks 10.72 hits, 5.36 wounding rolls, 4.5 after armor saves
1.7688 if we again pretend they aren't equipped with power sword equivalent weapons AND after the +1A, +1S for "charging" wears off which was also part of my point about Close Combat in general not being good.

15 battle sisters - no special/heavy weapons Lest someone complain if I use a Space Marine unit everyone is familiar with for a comparison baseline (roughly equal points - shooting doesn't care about base size) gets 15-30 shots depending on rapid fire range.

15 shots, 10 hits 5 wounding rolls, 1.65 wounds after saves.
30 shots 20 hits, 10 wounding rolls, 3.3 wounds after saves. - Average 2.475

And they can do this pretty reliably turn after turn. Close Combat can be assumed to be somewhere between every other turn, and just under every turn. If we assume an every other turn - and a few other things like basic shooty troops should be roughly as effective as basic bashy troops (i.e. Tau might be an exception) - then the bashy troop should be rougly twice as effective in close combat as the shooty is at shooting.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
 Irbis wrote:

I still don't get why, after hitting perfect formula in 5th edition, both from balance and usability standpoint (no frakking constant page-flipping for one ) they went back to garbage, useless 'armory' for 6th and 7th, then, when it clearly didn't worked, they brought in back some bits from 5th, except leaving all the best points out. Does GW pay writers for making books so useless you wear them out with constant use (or tear out pages in rage/to make them usable) just so people need to buy a new one...?

If they really made Primaris weapons all unique just to patch holes in this abomination of a system (which is pretty silly, I mean, anyone can show any difference between bolt carbine, auto-bolter and that third bolt gun which eludes me now?) then whoever is responsible for it should be chainsworded off his seat and a competent writer brought back in...

Honestly, I really like the current layout of the codecies. It's the best they've done so far [that I've experienced].

However, the downside is that weapons have a fixed cost independent of the platform, which is a bit of a limitation.

Have you ever seen fifth edition book? Not only points were all on unit entry, requiring no flipping at all, they were individually balanced, too. Say, power fist was full points on captain, got discount on librarian, to account for his all around worse CC skills, then even bigger discount on a sergeant. There were even subtle pro-fluff discounts to make squads looking in-universe (say, tacticals had discount on their single heavy weapon to encourage taking them instead of just having boring 5 bolter MSU, assault squads had discount on transports if they dropped their jump packs, etc). All in all, I can't think of any other edition coming even close to this, promoting both fluff and balance (see also a lot of units that were made to give players fluffy squads plugging holes in army organization, which you were expected to convert yourself to really make them 'your guys')...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





In 8th E, we've seen:
-Morty and Maggy
-PoxWalker tides
-Shining Spear deathstars
-Alpha Legion Zerkers
-Bloodletter Bomb
-Ork Mobs
-Knights
-SmashCaptain
-Banana Bikes

CC can do serious work this edition. Pure CC lists tend to not hold up as frequently, but the top contenders meta-wise have had some CC elements more often than not.

Assault Marines are a terrible measuring stick. They make even Tac Marines look good. You get the opposite result measuring Grot dakka against Boyz choppas.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Breton wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Breton wrote:
marines would still deathball without the auras, we’d just call it castle or gunline or something. Close combat sucks this edition, so you won’t see the assault units splitting off to rush while the shooters provide covering fire to soften up targets. And if everything is going to shoot you might as well keep it all together so it can cover for each other.


Close combat is amazing, you just need half a brain to make it work and no brain to put a bunch of guns next to an aura and then roll dice. And marines aren't a CC army.


You have numbers to back this up? I've done the math on multiple armies basic close combat units to back up my claim. I'm assuming you've done so as well and didn't just make a wild baseless claim based on your feelings not data?
Hormaguants were bad. Assault Marines were bad. Sisters were bad. Ork Boys were on the bad side of OK- because they had special rules to make up for most of what Close Combat lost in general rules. The only good basic close combat unit I tested that was good were bloodletters - and they were equipped far differently than - and closer to - the elite close combat units,


As for Marines not being a CC army, I'll be sure to let the Blood Angels, Raven Guard, and Space Wolves know they've been playing wrong for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I don't use the codex for points (battle scribe is a life saver) but it takes quite a lot of work to figure out how much a build costs from being naive to a codex. You need to figure out the weapons it can take from the data sheet. Find the base cost in 1 place for the tank and then add up all the weapons options from possibly several other places. I hate it.


It's much easier on an e-Codex. You can just tap on the options and get a popup with the points costs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just finish the build. I think it looks spectacular. I was at first going to make the plasma version but the large barrel looks so good on it I had to use the Las. I also noticed the "frag launchers" are slightly different. Essentially they are a modified krakstorm launcher with frags for ordinance. So maybe GW does understand their weapons systems. Or maybe not...



Magnetize. Assuming the unit/model/Primaris line is going to stick around the various editions and various builds are going to favor Plasma over Las and Las over Plasma from time to time. And I'm not buying two to be able to use one either way.

I am all about excuses to buy new models.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine




 Irbis wrote:

Have you ever seen fifth edition book? Not only points were all on unit entry, requiring no flipping at all, they were individually balanced, too. Say, power fist was full points on captain, got discount on librarian, to account for his all around worse CC skills, then even bigger discount on a sergeant. There were even subtle pro-fluff discounts to make squads looking in-universe (say, tacticals had discount on their single heavy weapon to encourage taking them instead of just having boring 5 bolter MSU, assault squads had discount on transports if they dropped their jump packs, etc). All in all, I can't think of any other edition coming even close to this, promoting both fluff and balance (see also a lot of units that were made to give players fluffy squads plugging holes in army organization, which you were expected to convert yourself to really make them 'your guys')...


Although let's be honest, the actual points values were just as likely to be an asspull as they are now.
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

I thought this thread was about the Repulsor Executioner? Why are we talking about close combat and Assault Marines?

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 Tamwulf wrote:
I thought this thread was about the Repulsor Executioner? Why are we talking about close combat and Assault Marines?


Because we're on page 42.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Breton wrote:
Magnetize. Assuming the unit/model/Primaris line is going to stick around the various editions and various builds are going to favor Plasma over Las and Las over Plasma from time to time. And I'm not buying two to be able to use one either way.

The Executioner doesn't even need magnets. Don't glue the top of the turret to the bottom of the turret, then just close the two halves around the gun. The fit is more than tight enough to hold it in place once it's primed. And since you'll probably use the Destroyer 90% of the time it will take a while to start getting lose.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/08 15:50:47


 
   
 
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