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My girl friend is starting to play 40k. The points are staying same, 600 or less, and I have slowly been adding the special rules in for her to learn. My main concern is how to teach her the tactic that are part of the game. Set up, target priority, fire lanes, assualt defense/offense, and so on. In my mind there should be a way to teach this beyond just playing a bunch of game and letting her learn by practice alone. Has anyone thought about how to teach 40k tactics to other people?

 

The Wraith

The best way I've found is to have a veteran player act as a coach to the person who is learning. It works best if the coach is not the opponent--the opponent is a third person who doesn't mind the learner getting help from the veteran.

The coach teaches by finding out what the learner wants to do at each decision, and then giving feedback and making suggestions, explaining along the way why certain things are good/bad ideas.

Also you cannot coach your girlfriend--you'll be better off if you give up that idea now Anybody who ever tried to teach his girlfriend to drive a stick shift can confirm that boyfriend/girlfriend relationships are incompatable with coaching.

best way to learn tactics is to play. my first two years of paying were rough (back in the day when virus outbreak would kill half my army before the game even started), as my only regular opponent was deathwing. terminators with a 3+ save (on TWO dice). rough, but i learned a lot.

so have her play as much as she can (but dont force her to...that wont be good...), and coach her as well as you can. if you are her opponent, allow her to make mistakes every now and then so she can see what they lead to. remember, most people learn better from mistakes than correct decisions.

I disagree totally. It's possible to learn tactics by playing, but it is unecessarily slow and painful.

Telling somebody to learn tactics by playing is like handing a non-driver the keys to your racecar and telling them to just sit in the driver seat and try stuff out until they figure out how to win a race. It's unecessarily difficult, could take forever, and might never happen at all when the learner gets discouraged from never even getting off the starting line.

Why force every player to rediscover the basics of tactics on his own? It takes five seconds for a veteran player to point out that you can't send your assault marines into the middle of the enemy gunline on their own and expect them to survive and accomplish anything, but I see inexperienced players doing this over and over again without ever realizing what's going on.

I usually will play the person and take mental notes and later discuss with them other plays they could have made. Playing is really the only way to learn. If a coach tells them everything they should do I have seen persons become frustrated and feel like they are not playing the game. It's also important for the person playing them to make it enjoyable, close, and exiting. (Don't beat them down) If it's also a real young person I will also let them win without making it obvious so they will enjoy the experience and continue playing. I also have the mindset that I am teaching and need to be patient or just find your local outrider who's purpose is to help new people learn the game.

All the best advice I ever got was in the form of broad concepts as opposed to specific situations. Main thing is that in the end, they are going to have to figure out what works best for them.

When I first started playing my oppenent and good friend who was teaching me would always point out to do certain things. Maybe its just me but I had to learn the hard way.

Teaching tactic does not always mean teaching the rules. But you need to know the rules well before any tactics can even be learned.

Depends on the army. I've been teaching someone how to play tyranids, and the basic tactics of waves, not overextending his lines, and overlapping synapse.

He got smacked the first game....but did much better the second 1000pt game. I usually give him my ideas, explain what *I* going to do in response(like as he's setting up, showing where *I* will be before he finishes) and give him ideas.

I'll work with him more. He really really needs to learn how to keep his synapse a bit more hidden.....but he's getting better.

Oh and I let him take back moves.

Well obviously the coaching has to be good. Telling somebody what to do is not effective coaching. Guided trail and error, discussion of options and being allowed to take back moves are good coaching techniques.

Thank you for the advice. I think I agree more with Flavius Infernus on this. I have seen plenty of people that have been playing games for year and still make many poor tactical decisions. That is why I am looking for a more, structured approach, but I do not want her to feel like I am playing the army. She need to make the decisions in the end.

Thankfuly, so far, she has not become frustrated with me making comments, though it has been only her playing me so far.

I think just playing works fine. If someone tells you not to make a certain move which could lead to a unit being lost, so you just dont move it. That can be forgotten later on. But if you make the move and then next turn your unit gets wiped out you'll remember a unit getting wiped later on more. IMO

Although also it has been proved the number one way to learn is actually to teach someone else that skill and you learn it better. So you can actually become a better tactician by teaching someone tactics.

But i think a great way to learn is by losing. Its like the whole idea of your parents. They tell you not to do something cause they did it and know what happens. But you dont listen you do it cause you havent tried it.

But teaching someone can work too I guess.

In general, I've found its all about not having the boyfriend constantly pointing out the girlfriend's mistakes. Tends to go over poorly. However the planed move and potential response system works fairly well. Ask her what she wants to do and then tell her how you will respond if she does that.

Example

(BF) So, what are you gong to do this turn?
(GF) Well I'll move my gaunts up this road to get closer to your guardsmen in that building
(BF) If you do that then my guardsmen will shoot you next turn and you won't have any cover to protect you.
(GF) Hummm, what if I move them into this building?
(BF) I'll still probably shoot you but the cover should keep you from taking much damage. Then if you charge me next turn, I'll probably die.
(GF) Ok, I?ll move them there

Or something like that. Its kind of like learning from your mistakes, but before you actually make them.

You can also level the playing field, so to speak, by taking an army that isn?t very strong (poor selection choices, less effective weapons, odd numbered squads, ect) to help out. You will want her to win a game every now and then but don?t make it obvious you are letting her.

My advice: I'd have to learn some tactics first.

I've yet to learn tactics myself(I'm the guy jumping assault marines into the middle of the line), but when my brother and I would play, we'd talk about movement with each other, almost as a way to discourage the other from making a move. "If you move there, my firewarriors in the trees can shoot you".. It opens my eyes because it reveals what he was thinking, and lets me see more of the battlefield.

i have been teaching my daughter off & on for almost 2yrs. she's 7 i do it only when she wants to & when daddy has time . I started with the basics ,what you do each turn . then slowly progressed from there, we still haven't worried about the chart for dice rolling.(i worry about that & keep it fair) we slowly do harder missions & she has learn tactics on her own & what doesn't work . we always discuss what happened & our reasons for doing them . we keep the games small so it doesn't get bogged down & boring we haven't gone over 400pts.i also change the armies around i have a few different small squads from marines to dark eldar & we always take a different army as often as possible . i stay away from fluff special rules & war gear . i tried it once & i think it disappointed her & she lost interest for a time.now i'm not saying your girlfriend is a child but this game in general is totally alien to most people you have to keep them interested & not try to overwhelm them w/jargon & fluff. by the way she's up 13 games to 7!?!

Posted By shrew on 12/05/2006 6:03 PM
 we still haven't worried about the chart for dice rolling.(i worry about that & keep it fair)

Well I hope so! :p

Seriously though, that totally rocks, I can't wait until my boys start asking to play 40k, heck I don't even care if they break a few models along the way as long as they have fun with it.

As has been said, you learn the rules first, then you learn tactics. The tactics all stem from the rules.

I'd suggest that you bear the learner's level of understanding in mind. Don't start out telling them about how to pick units to maximize their VP denial for tournaments that blah blah blah. Just make sure they understand the rules. Then show them the basics of how the rules inform tactics. Working out how assaults work, how infantry that move 6" are always vulnerable to being charged, that's a good basic concept that everyone needs to understand.

Posted By the_trooper on 12/05/2006 8:00 AM
When I first started playing my oppenent and good friend who was teaching me would always point out to do certain things. Maybe its just me but I had to learn the hard way.

Like my dad always taught me, nothing gets you focused and on the ball like a good A ss whoopin'

If your girlfriend is a beginner, just teach her how to properly play the game first. Keep things really simple at first, no powerfists in close combat, only one type of gun in a shooty squad, etc.

Then, once she's comfortable with the rules, start introducing things like the importance of smart deployment, smart ways to remove models in close combat, etc.

Another thing that helps is instead of critiquing while she is playing take notes (very short) through the game of things she did well and poorly and go over them after the game.

I like the idea of telling her what I will do if she makes a move. That will help her think ahead to what her opponent will see and weight the merits of the move. I also like the idea of taking notes to talk about after the game. Though I am not sure she will be interested in hearing a lecture....

Side note: I find it funny that people are saying, "Just learn the rules." While you need the rules for how each action you make will affect the game, that is not required for the basics of tactical play. Fire lanes, staying out of LOS, Spreading your forces or leaving them compact, etc. require minimal rules knowledge. Sun Tzu's teaching do not require the rules of 40k for the basics of tactics, but but knowing the rules will help you refine those tactics to this game. Also, I know plenty of people that know the rules backwards and forwards, but couldn't play a good tactical game.

The Wraith

If your girlfriend understands and can implement Sun Tzu's teachings, you don't need to teach her about tactics.

Teach her the rules.

Yes, but they still require knowledge. Even if 40K tactics mapped directly to real world tactics (and they don't), you still have to understand how 40K is representing various things. You can understand the concept of fire lanes all day, but if you don't know how far your Marines can shoot, or how effective their shooting is, or what sort of protection is afforded by their position, then what good are you doing?

In real life a single machine gun covering a road can make it impossible for infantry to cross. In 40K, not only can a squad of Marines basically ignore a single Heavy Bolter, but if the road is only 5" wide, they can go right across without being shot.

In real life, squad level combat involves a lot of pinning with fire volume, then moving to flank and compromise cover. While moving up the enemy's flank has benefits in 40K, it's nothing like real life, where getting along somebody's side is lethal. If somebody comes to the 40K table expecting to gun stuff down just because he has intersecting fire on it... That sort of real world tactical understanding will only detract from their 40K tactics.

40K is 40K. Real combat is real combat. The two couldn't be much more different, and the skillsets couldn't be much more inapplicable.



I don't think any of Sun Tzu's teachings apply to 40K. We'd all like to think there's some accurate reflection of real tactics in 40K, and that as great 40K generals we're a little closer to real generals, but that's fantasy. 40K tactics are entirely about working the 40K rules.

You could be the greatest squad level infantry commander in history, that'd teach you nothing about playing 40K.

40K is like overcomplicated chess. Chess is a good mental activity for anybody, an exercise in planning, anticipation and strategic thinking, but it doesn't teach you anything about warfare.

I agree in part, 40k tactics and chess don't apply specific lessons of dealing with real combat and the like.

However, the general lessons of planning, maximizing efficiency, using opponent's mistakes to your advantage, and analyzing your environment can all be applied to many situations in life.

It's like my high school Math teacher used to say, "You may not ever use Calculus again in your life, but you'll use the skills we are developing every day."

The specifics may not apply, but general lessons can cross apply.

Posted By Phryxis on 12/06/2006 7:58 AM

Fire lanes, staying out of LOS, Spreading your forces or leaving them compact, etc. require minimal rules knowledge.

Yes, but they still require knowledge. Even if 40K tactics mapped directly to real world tactics (and they don't), you still have to understand how 40K is representing various things. You can understand the concept of fire lanes all day, but if you don't know how far your Marines can shoot, or how effective their shooting is, or what sort of protection is afforded by their position, then what good are you doing?

In real life a single machine gun covering a road can make it impossible for infantry to cross. In 40K, not only can a squad of Marines basically ignore a single Heavy Bolter, but if the road is only 5" wide, they can go right across without being shot.

In real life, squad level combat involves a lot of pinning with fire volume, then moving to flank and compromise cover. While moving up the enemy's flank has benefits in 40K, it's nothing like real life, where getting along somebody's side is lethal. If somebody comes to the 40K table expecting to gun stuff down just because he has intersecting fire on it... That sort of real world tactical understanding will only detract from their 40K tactics.

40K is 40K. Real combat is real combat. The two couldn't be much more different, and the skillsets couldn't be much more inapplicable.

Sun Tzu's teaching do not require the rules of 40k for the basics of tactics, but but knowing the rules will help you refine those tactics to this game.

I don't think any of Sun Tzu's teachings apply to 40K. We'd all like to think there's some accurate reflection of real tactics in 40K, and that as great 40K generals we're a little closer to real generals, but that's fantasy. 40K tactics are entirely about working the 40K rules.

You could be the greatest squad level infantry commander in history, that'd teach you nothing about playing 40K.

40K is like overcomplicated chess. Chess is a good mental activity for anybody, an exercise in planning, anticipation and strategic thinking, but it doesn't teach you anything about warfare.

Of course knowing the rules will help you play the game of 40k, but they have little to do with basic tactics. Lets apply One of my favorite teachings of Sun Tzu. To summarise, "The best defense is to never be attacked." This applies all the time in 40k for keeping units out of LOS from you opponent, to keeping the model outside of their weapons range, to creating a unit that your opponent does not want to waste shots on. To refine that tactic to fit in 40k you do need to know the rules, but the rules are not going to teach you that tactic. It has to be something you realize as a viable tactic that can then be applied to situation in 40k.

The Wraith

Suz Tzu... Clearly the John Madden of medieval Chinese warfare. "The best way to win at football, is to score more points than the other team."

If you consider "the best defense is to never be attacked" to be a tactical insight, then I can certainly see why you'd like people to know that before they learn the rules. I agree, knowing the rules is pretty much worthless if you don't have concept of what fighting is, what guns are, what violence is, etc. If you're waking up from your first boxing match, confused as to why that other chap was in such a huff, then sure, you need to learn 'tactics.'

In all seriousness, though, you mention ways to "never be attacked."

One way is to keep out of LOS. How much help is that against a Basilisk? Or against Jump Infantry that can come over a building and hit you?

Another way is to keep out of range. The range of a Rapid-Fire weapon changes when it moves. Some models can move closer than shoot, some can't.

The point is that without knowing the rules, the concepts you're talking about don't even exist.

3 levels of learning:

1. The rules - everything else is useless without a good understanding of the rules. You don't have to know everything (I still look stuff up during a game every so often), but you've got to know about casualty removal, lines of sight, terrain and cover etc.

2. Tactics - the little things that make a big difference. When to take models in base to base, when to advance for rapid fire shooting, when to back off to avoid an assault, why you shouldn't give a character a power fist

3. Strategies - refused flank, gunlines, how to play for a mission, supporting squads, not supporting squads. Generally, the broad brush stuff you think about during deployment.

I'd go through it in basically that order. Two things that can help with strategies - one, stress playing to the mission. If you're not playing missions (and at 600 points, you might not be), do so - it really helps. Two, talk about the plan for the game before you start. Where are you going to deploy, what are you going to try to do during the game, when are you going to go for the mission - five minutes before the game starts thinking about those things can be worth half an hour of in-depth coaching on turn five about where exactly to move that last remaining rhino

Phryxis, I did not state this as a big revalation, but as a point towards the tactics that are universally used reguardless of the system. It might be a no brainer for you, but I have played many people who "jump their assualt marines out in front of a gun line" or Do not care what weapons have range to them. These people knew rules, but did not come up with the better tactics off of that. Learning the rules is easy, you read them, and if you do not know a rule, you can always look it up. Tactics are different. There is no book of "40k Tactics" that can be bought. You are becoming bogged down in the minutia of the rules and not allowing the general tactics to be a separate category. I have no fears that she can learn the rules. I worry about her learning the tactics to become a good player.

spikydavid, I like the idea about talking before hand about what is going to be tried for the game. Thanks.

Right, that's bad tactics. I'm not saying that you don't need good tactics to win. I think spikydavid put it well... It's three levels of learning. You need all three to be a good player, but you need to learn them in order.

By all means, teach her 40K tactics. But first she needs to know the rules. And then, when you teach her 40K tactics, teach her 40K tactics. Don't start telling her about how the Russians defended Stalingrad, waste her time absorbing that, just so you can then segue into a marginally related situation in 40K.

Real world tactics are of some minor use in explaining 40K tactics, but only if the real world tactics are a common language between the two people involved. Putting a Las/Plas squad in an elevated position is SORTA like putting a sniper in a bell tower. If both people understand the sniper in the bell tower concept, then you can use that to explain what the Las/Plas squad is doing. But don't go explaining snipers in bell towers to your girlfriend so you can then explain how a Las/Plas could work the same way. Just explain how Las/Plas works.



The priority of learning the rules isn't dependant on how hard it is. You need to know the rules solidly and relatively completely before you can learn tactics. You may be able to teach tactics before the rules are understood, but it's an inefficient use of time.

I happen to think it takes a lot of time and a bunch of iterations to learn the rules. Maybe it was fast and easy for you, but for me it took a long time to memorize all the basics, and to this day I still need to check stuff now and then.



The game is the rules. The rules are the game. You aren't commanding a squad of Marines in Anbar province, you're playing 40K. It's true that some concepts of military tactics and strategy might have analogs in 40K, but that's more anecdotal than useful.

Put simply, if you want to be good at 40K, think 40K. Don't think real world military, and then try to map it to 40K.

And, especially, if you're trying to teach a girl to play the game, don't take marginally applicable real world analogs, which won't be particularly evocative for her anyway, and then try to shoehorn them into 40K. She (I presume) isn't a military historian or fan of Sun Tzu. It's fine if quoting Sun Tzu adds to your enjoyment of the game, but I'm certain it doesn't improve your tactics (or hers), and I'd guess it doesn't do anything for her enjoyment either.