Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Can you use Improved Comms on traitor vehicles to help summon daemons?

LoL...

"Calling all demons, please warp in, over."

Well, yeah. But in many ways 40k bends the law of logic which is why I was asking. Also, I have a big friggin antennae.

Summoning is not a traditional deepstrike or reserves roll because they come in irrespective of whether the rules allow for reserves or not. BUT it does follow many of the key characteristics of reserves. Can only come in second turn and after, uses the old pie plate scatter deployment and...

Well to bring some substance to why it might actually be possible:
CSM Codex:
"The daemon units will start in reserve irrespective of of whether the Reserves special rule is used or the mission being played."

The die rolling is on the same scale as normal reserves rolls.

I personally would allow it....only because the idea is kinda cool. But as it states that the deamons start in reserve, and the imp comms improve reserve rolls, it would make sense that going with RAW, it would work

Posted By the_trooper on 12/10/2006 6:55 AM
Summoning is not a traditional deepstrike or reserves roll because they come in irrespective of whether the rules allow for reserves or not.

It's not a Deep Strike or Reserves roll of any kind, let alone a 'traditional' one.

Deep Strike is a specific Special Rule that gives models a particular way of deploying from Reserve. It is nothing to do with Summoning... nor is it anything to do with Improved Comms, which don't reference the Deep Strike rules at all.


So far as Reserves go, the only reference that Summoning makes to the Reserves rules is to point out that the Daemons are kept in Reserve regardless of whether or not the Reserves rule is in play in that mission. Other than that, Summoning does not follow the Reserves rules, it follows the Summoning rules instead... which just happen to use an identical table and method.

So, by the RAW, no, Improved Comms have no effect on Summoning rolls because the Improved Comms rules entry makes no reference to any effect on Summoning rolls, and Summoning follows its own rules rather than using the Reserves entry.

Interesting point. I initially thought the reverse might be true, since they are kept in Reserve. But if they never make Reserves rolls, just Summoning rolls which use a similar mechanic, then the comms will indeed be useless. I will have to peruse my CSM codex when I get home so I can see it for myself, but it sounds solid.

After insaniac's post which makes much sense, Im not sure if this applies but for a possible chance of clarity (hahaha, I know ) here goes:

Ok, so Daemons are not "Reserves" in the traditional sense.

What about Daemon Icons? Is first turn summoning possible with one since Daemons do not follow traditional Reserve rules and are not considered Reserves? I wish I had my codex with me but it mentions how "No reserves rolls must be made for daemons to come on the board." Someone with a codex please confirm / deny this.

This was visited before and besides it being over powered and a poor way to make friends, it was decided it could only happen on a second turn because of reserves being mentioned but it is not necessarily the case.

More murky rules!

Demons do make reserve rolls. In much the same way that drop pods make reserve rolls even if deep strike isnt allowed.
Reserve rolls are just rolls to see if something off the table comes in that turn.
Pods deep strike, demons summon, others teleport... All roll for reserves.

Posted By cypher on 12/11/2006 8:05 AM
Pods deep strike, demons summon, others teleport... All roll for reserves.

Nope, they don't all roll for Reserves... that was my point.

Pretty much every other model kept in Reserve rolls for Reserves. Daemons don't. They have their own table in the Summoning rules.

Orks - Hi my speed freak army list just orbitally bombarded your frontline unit and it has an icon left and im gonna assault oyu next turn!

Chaos - *rolls for demon to come in* Hey look my demon of uber pwnge just came in be prepared to lose your warboss!

Orks - But it is the bottom of turn 1!

Chaos - Sure is, but demons are not technically rolling for reserves, so be prepared to suffer!

- the_trooper before being lynched by an in-store lynch mob

that would sure be funny against some of the more smarmy players

Actually, the argument against 1st-turn summoning still holds.

The original claim was that it wasn't allowed because you don't normally start rolling for Reserves until turn two.

If we assume that the reference to Reserves rolls in the Daemon Icon entry is a typo (because, as we just saw, Daemons don't make Reserves rolls) the same principle still holds true: Daemons don't start rolling for Summoning until turn two.

So you're still stuck with the same two options:
1: Daemons may be sumoned through the icon on turn one, as no roll is required
or
2: Daemons may not be summoned, under any circumstances, until turn 2

To be honest I would rather them come out on turn 1 than turn 3 because they can be shot dead alot easier than CC'ed down