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Assaulting the turn you deepstrike is a large advantage, hence why it is disallowed.

But what if it wasnt so powerful?

I was thinking about the posssiblity of DW assaulting the turn they deepstrike, as termies hate being shot at.

I think I found a fix that could suit every army in terms of making assaulting the turn you deepstrike in a viable and not overly powerful tactic.

Here are the restrictions of assaulting the turn you deepstrike:

1) The charging unit may not shoot before assaulting.
(this is the big one right here, as shooting before the assault is a powerful way to ensure you will win the assault.) Obviously, not all units that deepstrike are meant to shoot (flayed ones, scarabs, etc.) but it is a fair drawback for being able to assault the turn you deepstrike.

2) The unit initiating the assault do not get the charge bonus.
(the charging unit is ill prepared to utilize its full potential, as they are running pell-mell into a enemy squad while being disoriented from dropping into the midst of battle. Hence not being able to fire before the assault or add their charge bonus.)

3) The target unit is allowed to make one FREE shot  at -1 to their BS with each of their weapons before being assaulted.
 (this is a way to bring over-watch back into the game, without making over-watch a powerful, voluntary option as it was in second ed.) It also takes into consideration the suprise a unit has by having an enemy pop up suddenly in their midst and being only able to squeeze off a single round before the assault, hence the minus one to their ballistic skill and the single shot. ( I know a fully automatic weapon would still shoot its full load on the single squeeze of a trigger, but a single shot is fair, especially when its a high str weapon.) I do realize that this introduces a modifier to the game, as 40K lately seems to steer away from them in general, so the -1 to BS may be ignored for judging whether this is a fair way to resolve this. Though it is definatly something to consider.

For example:

A DW termie squad 5 men strong equipped with lightning claws drops 4" away from a 10 woman strong unit of  sisters of battle equipped with 8 bolters, 1 heavy bolter, 1 flamer.
Eight str 4 shots and one str 5 shot are made and a flamer template laid out and resolved before the charging unit moves models into contact with the target unit. (making flamers and the often scorned template weapons a better option for all armies, as most have access to them).

This gives the deepstriking unit a chance by not having the full power of the shooting unit pour its fire into them, but it also allows the unit being charged a response to being assaulted.

This is all theory as far as fairness is concerned, as I havent thought about all armies in such termes.

One strike against this rule I can think of already is the power that units using the "Hit&Run" rule will have when using this type of deepstrike.

But overall, it seems like a step in the right direction.

What do you all think?

I like this idea a lot. However, I think it should go both ways (the BS -1 modifier), in that deepstriking units may shoot instead of assaulting, but count as moving and do so at -1 BS. That way, Speeders and Dreads could shoot away, but at BS 3, whereas an Assault Termie Squad would suddenly become viable because they could forego their nonexistent shooting and charge an opponent.

Otherwise, this is a great idea. If this ever became GW canon, I'd have 30 Assault Termies for my BT army the next day.

CK

IMHO more complication added to an issue that isn't really an issue.

The shooting at the charging unit dealio introduces a whole host of gameplay issues that have to be ironed out:

*when is the shot taken, before the charging unit moves? This is especially important for template and blast weapons. If the shot is taken before they move, what if the casualties inflicted make it so the charging unit can no longer reach the enemy unit?

*what happens if the charging unit suffers 25% casualties, do they fall back?

*if multiple enemy units are charged by multiple Deep Striking units do they get to fire twice (once at each unit)?


Etc, etc, etc.

I think it is much easier to just work the "free shot" into the Assualt phase the same was as the cover bonus, i.e. give the defending unit I10.

Here would be my suggestion:

1) A Deep Striking unit may either fire or Assualt but not both on the turn it arrives (it may not move further in the movement phase). It also may not use Fleet if it is going to Assualt that turn.

2) Defenders being Assualted by models that Deep Striked that turn strike at I10 as if they were defending cover (regardless of whether they actually were or not). Grenades and Flesh hooks may not be used to cancel out this Initiative bonus.


And there it is. Much more simple and I think you can even leave the +1A charge bonus in there, as the Deep Striking unit still has two major hurdles: it can scatter out of charge range and the I10 attacks by the defending unit.

Posted By yakface on 12/16/2006 1:10 AM

The shooting at the charging unit dealio introduces a whole host of gameplay issues that have to be ironed out:

*when is the shot taken, before the charging unit moves? This is especially important for template and blast weapons. If the shot is taken before they move, what if the casualties inflicted make it so the charging unit can no longer reach the enemy unit?

*what happens if the charging unit suffers 25% casualties, do they fall back?

*if multiple enemy units are charged by multiple Deep Striking units do they get to fire twice (once at each unit)?


Etc, etc, etc.

  Those are enough to make me rethink this whole thing as a good idea. Which is good, as I havent sat down and thought it out as thoroughly as a rule should be. Those are sticky situations indeed and 40K doesnt need to be further convoluted.

But your suggestion of...

1) A Deep Striking unit may either fire or Assualt but not both on the turn it arrives (it may not move further in the movement phase). It also may not use Fleet if it is going to Assualt that turn.

2) Defenders being Assualted by models that Deep Striked that turn strike at I10 as if they were defending cover (regardless of whether they actually were or not). Grenades and Flesh hooks may not be used to cancel out this Initiative bonus.

...has alot of merit.

Especially because it doesnt utlize modifiers as such, which 4th ed seems to be allergic to. It gives an even balance to games in and out of COD.

Allowing full attacks for charging would also be good as by giving the defenders I10 makes the defenders quite unsuprised, so that balances as well.

Please don't take any offense, but I don't see why there needs to be any rules change here?

What exactly is the problem that we are trying to fix?

Posted By happypants on 12/17/2006 7:15 PM
Please don't take any offense, but I don't see why there needs to be any rules change here?

What exactly is the problem that we are trying to fix?

To allow Assualt units a reason to use Deep Strike. Right now, for some strange reason units can shoot when they Deep Strike but they can't Assualt. That makes units like Flayed Ones and Assualt Terminators rather difficult to use (if not impossible).

What about allowing deepstriking units to assault, but not actually fighting the assualt on that phase. Instead, they lock the unit, thus preventing it from fleeing, but allowing the defender a turn of movement to bring up reinforcements.

What about giving units that deepstrike a similar invulnerable save like bikes that Turboboosted?

The problem with trying to fix deepstriking to allow assault is that assault is so powerful. If one or two beefy assault MODELS gets in with a large group of weak shooty models (i.e. guard), and if there are other units around, then the hand to hand fighters can remain effectivly invulnerable (since they can't be shot).

I think the 'fix' for deepstriking is proper use of LOS blocking terrain that the deepstrikers can hide behind pre charge.

It'd break the game.

Assault Terminators (and many other assault units that can deepstrike) are so awesome in assault that even without the +1 attack, even with the defenders going at I10 as if being in cover, and even with being shot at once at -1 BS by the defender, they'd still be overpowered.

It's like the Demonbomb. If Demons didn't get +1 Attack the turn they charged after being summoned, would they still be worth it? YES.

Assault is very powerful becasue to get there, you have to weather a lot of shooting. The thing that makes the demonbomb broken is the fact that you can't shoot at these uber assault units before they assault you and once they assault you, you're dead. Some armies might be OK (Marines) but other armies would be completely hosed (IG, Tau). Heck even Marines would be screwed for the most part.

How about:

Units that Deepstrike may make their normal move during the turn they arrive, but may not assault.

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 12/19/2006 5:15 AM
It'd break the game.

Assault Terminators (and many other assault units that can deepstrike) are so awesome in assault that even without the +1 attack, even with the defenders going at I10 as if being in cover, and even with being shot at once at -1 BS by the defender, they'd still be overpowered.

It's like the Demonbomb. If Demons didn't get +1 Attack the turn they charged after being summoned, would they still be worth it? YES.

Assault is very powerful becasue to get there, you have to weather a lot of shooting. The thing that makes the demonbomb broken is the fact that you can't shoot at these uber assault units before they assault you and once they assault you, you're dead. Some armies might be OK (Marines) but other armies would be completely hosed (IG, Tau). Heck even Marines would be screwed for the most part.

The big thing you have to remember is that Daemons get to move and Assualt on the turn they arrive. That makes them a whole lot more predictable and effective.

Units that can only make an Assualt move face a double-edged sword, if they scatter to close to the enemy, they may end up losing some or all of their models if they aren't able to stay more than 1" away from the enemy. If they scatter more than 6" away from the enemy they wouldn't be able to charge.

I really don't think it would be as bad you think.

 

Actually, I think I have a decent way to represent assaulting the turn a unit deepstrikes without breaking the game.

Allow the unit to consolidate 6" into an enemy unit. (thus no combat occurs the turn the assault move is made).
This way the deep striking units arent getting shot to pieces on the opponents turn after they deepstrike by being locked into combat, and the opponent has half a chance to respond to the threat by not being demolished before their turn.
Neither the unit that consolidated or the unit consolidated into count as charging, so the initiative and strength bonuses for furious charge as well as charging bonuses are nullified. Its an even playing field because cover is ignored when consolidation is made.

Locking the enemy unit is balanced by daring to risk deepstriking so close to the enemy.

The deepstrike rules would look something like this after this fix (red text my addition) otherwise, the Deep Strike rules below are verbatim from the rulebook.:

Some units are allowed to enter play via tunneling, teleportation, flying, or some other extraordinary means. Where this is the case it will be noted in their special rules. Some units always have the option; others only have the option in missions where the Deep Strike special rules is in force. If you wish to use the option then the units in question begin the game in reserve - it does not matter whether the Reserves special rule is in force for the mission. Roll for arrival of these units as specified in the Reserves rules and then deploy them as follows:

Place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position you would like the unit to arrive, and roll the Scatter dice. if you roll a HIT the model stays where it is, but if an arrow is shown this determines the direction the model scatters in. If a scatter occurs, roll 2D6" to see how far the model scatters.

All Deep Striking models are arranged around the first model. Models must be placed in base contact with the original model in the circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further circle should be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle should include as many models as will fit, and they may be facing in any direction. If the first model scatters off the table, the entire unit is destroyed. It is a good idea not to thry to Deep Strike close to a table edge! You may not place models within 1" of any enemy. if you are unable to complete a circle of models without any of them coming within 1" of the enemy, entering impassable terrain or going off table, the surplus models are destroyed.

Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault but may Consolidate 6" if  Consolidating 6" would bring them into contact with an enemy unit on the turn they arrive. If the unit arriving via Deep Strike does not Consolidate into an enemy unit they may shoot as normal, but count as having moved.


Since termies are rumoured to be losing their 2nd heavy weapons soon (like the DA and BA), this could be a balance to make them actually worth using again. As it stands right now, termies are considerably overpriced (again) for what they do, without the 2nd heavy weapon. Assault termies and flayed ones are now a decent choice, to name a couple.

It seems the best of both worlds and quite reasonable. This actually makes me want to playtest this a few times to see if it is somewhat balanced. The idea actually excites me a bit. *pats self on back* I think I may have actually fixed this rule.

We just allow units that have come down because of a Teleport Homer to assault as normal.

Means you can assault after Deep Striking, but you can't just take an uber-HTH Deep Striking unit by itself - your army has to support it.

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 05/23/2007 1:52 AM
We just allow units that have come down because of a Teleport Homer to assault as normal.

Means you can assault after Deep Striking, but you can't just take an uber-HTH Deep Striking unit by itself - your army has to support it.

BYE

Well, thats great for marines, but it doesnt address the deep strike rules for everyone in general.

Unless of course, you allow every army access to homers.

personally i wouldn't see guardsmen lugging around a teleport homer so stormtroopers would be a few feet more accurate on their teleporting in.

personally, i find demon bombing bad enough, this will make almost every marine army able to do the same.

HBMC, ur way i would agree with. having a homer that does that would make sense, if the appropriate points were paid of course

Posted By commisar-Kaine on 05/28/2007 3:44 PM
personally i wouldn't see guardsmen lugging around a teleport homer so stormtroopers would be a few feet more accurate on their teleporting in.

personally, i find demon bombing bad enough, this will make almost every marine army able to do the same.

HBMC, ur way i would agree with. having a homer that does that would make sense, if the appropriate points were paid of course

???

So many conflicting statements in your post, I dont know where to begin.

You dont see gaurdsmen lugging around homers, yet you say HBMC's form is agreeable?

How is...
Troops arriving via Deep Strike may not move or assault but may Consolidate 6" if  Consolidating 6" would bring them into contact with an enemy unit on the turn they arrive. If the unit arriving via Deep Strike does not Consolidate into an enemy unit they may shoot as normal, but count as having moved.

...as bad as demon bomb?

Do you even play 40K?

Nevermind, I have wasted enough of my time replying as it is.

Posted By yakface on 12/19/2006 4:50 PM

Units that can only make an Assualt move face a double-edged sword, if they scatter to close to the enemy, they may end up losing some or all of their models if they aren't able to stay more than 1" away from the enemy. If they scatter more than 6" away from the enemy they wouldn't be able to charge.

I really don't think it would be as bad you think.

Saying as ~80% (possibly more) of the units I see these days that are deep striking, are doing so in drop pods, the 1" away from an enemy thing doesn't matter.  Also, I 10 doesn't mean much when you get charged by terminators or anything else that relies on power fists to do damage.  All in all deep striking assault units removes the only real defense against them (shooting them before they get to you) as well as some less effective options (like charging them before they can charge you).

All in all, I think it’s a really bad idea.

I agree with Phoenix on this one

Hellfury:  The major problem with the whole assaulting out of deep strike, is that the assaulting unit gets locked into close combat without risk of taking casualties from the opponent before you get into CC.  That's what people have a gripe with about the demon bomb.  Your idea about consolidating into base contact after deep strike doesn't address the problem at all. 

Your unit gets into melee combat without any risk of getting shot, although you don't fight on your turn or get a charge.  It makes things even worse for the other player, because with demon bombs sometimes, the charging unit wipes out the initial squad, and at least has a chance of not consolidating into the next unit.  With this though, your unit will be safe during their shooting phase, and you'll have a good chance of either wiping out or forcing the enemy squad to break, enabling your guys to consolidate closer to other units, and then have your turn to move and assault another unit. 

I can see why people want to be able to assault while deepstriking.  I play Black Templars and I'd really love to be able to do that.  I can see why it isn't allowed, because it'd be way overpowered.  I consider it part of the fun of the game making it a challenge for me to get to my opponent in CC, skillfully using terrain and other units as distractions to get assault marines, chaplains, and assault terminators into CC.  I also play Guard, so I am challenged to concentrate firepower on assaulty units, and minimize damage from oncoming assaults.  Shooty armies have a hard enough time fighting a demon bomb, because it enables melee units to get into close combat without any risk of getting shot.  Allowing anything that deep strikes to do that as well would be ridiculous. 

By not allowing assaults out of deepstrike, it forces you to think more about where to deepstrike to and trying to make the most of it.