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Does that rule only apply to units consisting of several models with multiple wounds?

If a two wound space marine captain in power armor joins a tactical squad and they suffer one wounding hit and fail their armour save, can the wound be allocated to the captain?

To my understanding, the rule only applies to units of multi-wound models, so you could do this.

Remember that if you upgrade his armor save you can?t do it, as the mixed armor rules require hits to be taken first on the models in the unit which have the majority armor save.

There?s also a downside in that a character gives up half points as soon as he?s wounded. Still, it can be worth it when you need to come one squaddie alive to keep the heavy weapon, or to stay a Scoring unit.

Yeah, that's the way I've been playing it, I just wanted confirmation because the issue came up a couple days ago and so I wanted to run it by everyone.

I was under the impression you could do this IF more wounds than models were rolled. IE your captain in a 8 man tact squad could not take a wound if only 4 wounds were allocated to the unit. I know this changes in CC but I am assuming you are talking about in shooting logan

Posted By moosifer on 12/18/2006 7:16 AM
I was under the impression you could do this IF more wounds than models were rolled. IE your captain in a 8 man tact squad could not take a wound if only 4 wounds were allocated to the unit. I know this changes in CC but I am assuming you are talking about in shooting logan

That's true if the captain had a different armour save than the squad he was with. That rule is under the mixed armour rules on page 76.

You played paul again didnt you =p

No

It was a 4 way CoD battle last thursday, really fun time.

I have played 1 serious CoD game, and that was utter insanity. 2000 marines vs 2000 Nids, take the building, and on the last turn tooled up carnifex vs a scout. I had a tact squad that could have shot the fex, but they fell back too far =\

The rule has two conditions which must be met before it restricts where you can place wounds:

A) The unit must have multiple ("several") multiple wound models
B) A multiple wound model takes a wound

So, right off the top, the rule does not limit what you can do if there's only one multiple wound model in the squad, and it doesn't restrict what you do to the single wound models in a squad with single and multiple wound models. There are, of course, other subtleties of the rule that get argued, but the above is pretty straight-forward.

Posted By moosifer on 12/18/2006 7:16 AM
I was under the impression you could do this IF more wounds than models were rolled. IE your captain in a 8 man tact squad could not take a wound if only 4 wounds were allocated to the unit. I know this changes in CC but I am assuming you are talking about in shooting logan

Moosifer, he’s talking about choosing, as the defending player, to take a hit on his character.  Which he is free to do in this circumstance.  As a general rule the defender chooses which of his models get hit, subject to certain limitations.

 

It sounds like you’re talking about the “torrent of fire” rule, which is what you use if the ATTACKING player wants to single out a character or other model in a squad.

Just to clarify here:

Master + 8 man tac squad:

-Takes 1 wound: Must be taken from tac marine (model must be removed)
- Takes 2 Wounds: Must be taken from Tac marines (again models must be reomoved)
-Takes 3 wounds : May take either master off the table or may take 3 tac marines

please correct me if I am wrong on this one because this is how I have played since foreever.

You're wrong. The must remove whole models only takes effect when a multi-wound model in a squad with more than one of them is assigned a wound.

You can choose to either apply any given wound to a 1 wound model (removing that model) or apply a wound to a multi-wound model, where the 'must remove whole models' takes effect.

Posted By happypants on 12/18/2006 9:00 AM
Just to clarify here:

Master + 8 man tac squad:

-Takes 1 wound: Must be taken from tac marine (model must be removed)
- Takes 2 Wounds: Must be taken from Tac marines (again models must be reomoved)
-Takes 3 wounds : May take either master off the table or may take 3 tac marines

please correct me if I am wrong on this one because this is how I have played since foreever.

I've been playing it:

(as long as the master has the same armour save as the tac squad)

1,2, or 3 wounds from one source, I can allocate ONE of those to the master if I choose to. 10 wounds, I can allocate 2, 19 wounds, 3.

Logan, you have it right.

Happypants, the rules for casualty removal involving units of (?several?, as Lowinor quoted) multi-wound models don?t apply to a unit of single-wound models with one multi-wound character attached.

What is the page number on that please?

Posted By happypants on 12/18/2006 10:34 AM
What is the page number on that please?

Page 27. The rule applies to a unit containing "several" multiple wound creatures. "Several" is certainly more than one.

What if there's another IC attached (such as a Command Squad with extra characters)?

Posted By lord_sutekh on 12/18/2006 11:14 AM
What if there's another IC attached (such as a Command Squad with extra characters)?

If you have "several" multi-wound creatures in a unit by any means, and you allocate a wound to one of those creatures with multiple-wounds, then you must remove whole models where possible instead of spreading those wounds around to the other multi-wound creatures in the unit.

You can always choose to allocate the wound to a model with a single wound instead.

How about you have a squad of multiwound models. The squad has a wound from somewhere. The squad is then hit by something that instant kills the squad. Do you keep the wound, or do you just remove the injured base?

...and nobody can say for sure exactly how many is "several," so you're on your own on this one.

We know for sure that one is not "several." But beyond that it depends on what dictionary you use. Some definitions of "several" even imply that when you *exceed* a certain number, you stop being "several" and become "many" instead.

Posted By frenrik on 12/18/2006 11:29 AM
How about you have a squad of multiwound models. The squad has a wound from somewhere. The squad is then hit by something that instant kills the squad. Do you keep the wound, or do you just remove the injured base?

This is one of those things that is just not clear in the rules. Flavius has argued before that the command to remove "whole" models means that an isntant death wound must be placed on an unwouned (i.e. whole) model where possible.

I contend that is impossible because instant death is (generally) not checked until after the model is actually wounded ( and therefore no longer "whole" ).

This is exactly why I created the poll in the "YMTC" thread stickied at the top of the forum. It is an issue you need to discuss with your opponent if you think it may come up during the game.

Based on the current poll it is about a 50/50 split with half of players putting instant death wounds on unwounded models, while the other half (slightly greater) always places the wound on the already wounded model, regardless of whether it will cause instant death or not.

Posted By frenrik on 12/18/2006 11:29 AM
How about you have a squad of multiwound models. The squad has a wound from somewhere. The squad is then hit by something that instant kills the squad. Do you keep the wound, or do you just remove the injured base?

If the squad is hit by something that instant kills the squad, well... I need to find out what that is and put it in my army list.

Seriously, see Yak's responce.  It's ambiguous.  I'm personally of the belief that instant death is irrelevant, as the rules only force you to maximize model removal at the current set of wounds to be allocated, not maximize model removal for future wounds as well.

I checked the FAQ before doing a search on this topic and I'm glad to see that the question of instant death is in the FAQ.

If someone could refresh my memory as I very well could be wrong, I thought that in 3rd edition there was a FAQ/errata at some point that clarified an instant death casulty on a squad of multi-wound critters (orgyn for example) resulted in removing an unwounded model.  I remember playing that way for a number of years and I find that older/long time players usually play that way also. 

However, that was the previous edition.

But I'm curious if that FAQ (if I can find my printed copy) has any bearing on the situation as the rules for instant death haven't changed that much in 4th edition.

Personally I don't care one way or the other how it works out (adjust tactics accordingly), I'd just like for it to be clear.

Thanks for reading my rambling.

So would we all, Budro. The problem with this rule is that it doesn't work out one way or the other. The text is not clear enough in the way it's phrased to come up with a definite answer.

It's just one of those things that you have to work out with your opponent or in your group.