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Now Ive been reading over the IG codex and am going to do a IG army.  Now I had a question about commissars and the summary execution.

 

If troop A fails morale test, and uses master vox to reroll his morale test, and fails again, on the HQ unit which has a commisar, does the commisar exeecute your CO, or do you go on just falling back with the troop that failed their morale?

The commissar only executes an officer who fails an ld test for their own unit. Failed tests over the vox don't count.

BTW, Voxes don't get you a re-roll, they just let you use the officer's Leadership rule when you're more than 12" away. Company Standard gives a reroll, but those "special rules" are specifically *not* transmitted down the vox link (see IG codex FAQ).

An argument could be made that the Commissar's LD boost is a 'special rule' that should also not be transmitted over the vox. However, most people accept that the Commissar's special rule affects the officer in his own unit (raising the officer's LD), and then the officer's LD is transmitted per the vox rules. So the commissar's special rule is never actually transmitted down the vox link, and so is not negated.

Welcome to the Guard! We are many, and they are few.

Posted By Strangelooper on 12/22/2006 6:41 AM
The commissar only executes an officer who fails an ld test for their own unit. Failed tests over the vox don't count.

I'd have to check my Codex to be sure, but the term 'officer' is misplaced here. I believe the rule refers to leader of the unit, which can be anything or anyone.

Just clearing up some confusion there.

EDIT: Re-reading my IG Codex and realised I was mistaken. See my posts below.

Actually, the FAQ says whoever is in charge of the squad if memory serves.

It's a little muddled. There are two separate pieces that get confused because of the strange relationship the rules have between the dex, the rulebook, and the FAQ. The situation is further confused because of the difference between IC's and advisors and GW's apparent attempt to make the commissar rules universal for both.

The command bonus will only apply to a sergeant or an officer. So, ogryn, ratlings, conscripts, techs, special/heavy weapon squads, or any others I can't think of do NOT gain +1 Ld. Whether or not this means the unit uses his Ld or theirs once joined is unclear although the Rulebook basically tells us they use his Ld. Why they would and a command squad wouldn't though makes no sense although that seems to be what the dex is implying since the +1 Ld would be pointless otherwise.

The execution will be of the officer or sergeant leading the unit, or failing that (examples above) any member of the squad. Whether or not this means that a commissar can continue to execute men in the squad after failed morale checks (using hid Ld) after the officer/sgt is dead is unclear. I have always taken that to mean that he will in fact continue to execute one member of the squad every time the unit fails a morale check (multiple executions), however, some could argue that execution only happens once.

Confused yet? Welcome to the Guard! Now try making a techpriest devastator squad and see where that gets you!

It's quite clear to me that he only executes one model because:

1) The unit only has one Officer or Sergeant leading the squad.  He will only execute a normal member of the squad if the squad did not have an Officer or Sergeant to begin with.

2) After executing the Officer or Sergeant or a normal member of the squad (if the did not have an Officer or a Sergeant), the Commissar take over leadership of the squad.  The Commissar will not execute himself.

Posted By Ghaz on 12/23/2006 12:05 PM
It's quite clear to me that he only executes one model because:

1) The unit only has one Officer or Sergeant leading the squad.  He will only execute a normal member of the squad if the squad did not have an Officer or Sergeant to begin with.

2) After executing the Officer or Sergeant or a normal member of the squad (if the did not have an Officer or a Sergeant), the Commissar take over leadership of the squad.  The Commissar will not execute himself.

He will, however, be executed by another Commissar. It would be foolish to do so but you could have a Conscript squad with nine Commissars, after all. That would make eight automatically passed morale checks. Stupid, wasteful and expensive. But possible.

And there's a flaw in your argument, Ghaz, (namely that he will only execute Officers and/or Sergeants) but I'll get to that in my next post...

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
It's a little muddled.

Actually, it's perfectly clear.

  

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
The situation is further confused because of the difference between IC's and advisors and GW's apparent attempt to make the commissar rules universal for both.

The rules are only universal for both when you consider Independent Commissars. However, as you cannot take both Independent Commissars and regular 'advisor' Commissars, it's a moot point really.

Also, the rules that apply to Commissars are perfectly simple and do not change whether they are ICs or not.
 

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
The command bonus will only apply to a sergeant or an officer. So, ogryn, ratlings, conscripts, techs, special/heavy weapon squads, or any others I can't think of do NOT gain +1 Ld.

This is true. The IG Codex states as much: "The presence of a Comissar in a unit will therefore add +1 to the Leadership characteristic of the Officer or Sergeant commanding the unit for tests affecting the unit." (Emphasis mine.)

Of course, it is thus arguable whether Veteran Sergeants are actually Sergeants in the truest sense of the word, but for the sake of everyone's sanity let's not get involved in the typically flawed Dakka argument.

So to reiterate what Glaive Company CO said: Ogryns, Ratlings, Techpriest Enginseers, Conscripts, and any Support Squads (from wherever in the Codex you purchase them) do not get the +1 Ld bonus. However, it is also arguable (stupidly, in my opinion, however) that Hardened Veterans and Stormtroopers do not either (and neither do other squads that choose to take Veteran Sergeants).

(This is, of course, further complicated by the IG Codex typo that Armoured Fist Squads have a Sergeant without a profile and thus he is unable to attack in any way.) 

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
Whether or not this means the unit uses his Ld or theirs once joined is unclear although the Rulebook basically tells us they use his Ld. 

 They use their own Leadership, just as every unit does, as indicated in the rulebook and not contradicted in anyway by anything in the IG Codex. Supported, in fact, by the text on p41. The Commissar's Ld only comes into play once he takes command of the uit after a 'Summary Execution'. Remember that a unit uses its own Ld or the Ld of the model leading it. The Commissar, when assigned, is not leading the unit. The IG Codex tells us this. 

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
The execution will be of the officer or sergeant leading the unit, or failing that (examples above) any member of the squad. 

This is not true. The IG Codex clearly states that a Commissar will only execute an Officer or Sergeant leading a squad. The Commissar will not execute any other model. It's a nice idea, and everyone seems to play this incorrect way, and it would make squads like Ogryns much more effective, but it's against the rules I'm afraid.

This is unimportant for 'advisor' Commissars, who are always assigned to a squad that has an Officer or a Sergeant. Well, unless you take into account technical wordplay, that is.

Likewise, this is unimportant for Independent Commissars as it means under the regular Advisor rules their Ld would never come into play. However, as they are now ICs, they can join a unit and begin leading it. Therefore the unit uses their Ld from the get-go. They thus logically cannot execute a member of the squad (i.e. themselves) and the rules don't permit that anyway, unless in the extremely rare occasion in which you put two Independent Commissars in one squad.

Simple, really.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
Whether or not this means that a commissar can continue to execute men in the squad after failed morale checks (using hid Ld) after the officer/sgt is dead is unclear. I have always taken that to mean that he will in fact continue to execute one member of the squad every time the unit fails a morale check (multiple executions)...

This is sheer nonsense, backed up by nothing in any rulebook as far as I can see.

Posted By Glaive Company CO on 12/22/2006 12:49 PM
Confused yet? Welcome to the Guard! Now try making a techpriest devastator squad and see where that gets you!

No, I'm not confused. Not by this, anyway. Ask me why the best close combat unit in the IG Codex can buy expensive Krak Grenades or Melta Bombs and yet cannot in anyway get access to Frag Grenades to help them in combat, then I'll admit I'm confused. :|

As for Techpriests, that's easy. Just follow the rules and the IG FAQ.

 

 

 

 

 

Except... the IG FAQ overrules all of this perfectly clear information contained in the Codex and rulebook and makes a mess of everything.

So, no, I'm not confused. Angry, yes, but who isn't pissed off at GW these days?

No, because he is neither an Officer nor a Sergeant. The Commissar's Summary Execution rule never says that it applies to Advisors.

'If a Commisar is with a unit that does not have an Officer or Sergeant leading it, the Summary Execution rule means the unit will take one casualty before it then passes its Morale test'

So if a Commisar is leading a unit of Conscripts-

Do the Conscripts have an Officer or Sergeant leading it? Since the answer is no, that means it just takes a casualty before passing a failed Morale test. It doesn't matter if the commisar is leading the conscripts or not. He is not an Officer or a Sergeant.

It would be funny to see a commisioner executing another commisioner

Ghaz:
"1) The unit only has one Officer or Sergeant leading the squad. He will only execute a normal member of the squad if the squad did not have an Officer or Sergeant to begin with.

2) After executing the Officer or Sergeant or a normal member of the squad (if the did not have an Officer or a Sergeant), the Commissar take over leadership of the squad. The Commissar will not execute himself."

This is what I mean by confusion! Everyone has a different mindset on this subject. The FAQ entry telling us that Commissars will execute a member of a squad that DOESN'T have an officer or sergeant leading seems to imply different things to different people. Are we to disregard this sentence if the commissar is attached to a squad that had a CO/Sgt? In other words, does he only use his Summary Execution once and only once? Does a squad that has had its CO/Sgt killed not fall under the category of "unit that does not have aOfficer or Sergeant leading it?" This really isn't answered by any concrete evedence, but the RAW supports multiple summary executions.

Stu-Rat: "As for Techpriests, that's easy. Just follow the rules and the IG FAQ."

Hmmm, you must have the same IG codex printing as I do. It doesn't say anything about servitors counting toward the techs limit on wargear, but it does mention only being able to take one PC servitor. Then, we have the FAQ that takes the question away by telling us that servitors DO count toward the limit, making the single PC servitor limit pointless. Now there is another printing of the codex that tells us the servitors DON'T count toward the tech's limit! Of course, the FAQ remains unchanged making this new edition pointless! So if we just follow the rules and the IG FAQ we will end up right where the origional printing left us.

I'm not sure if you're advocating using the codex without referencing the FAQ or using the FAQ with the dex though. If it's dex + FAQ then all of my points still stand. If it's dex alone then a few problems are solved but the big points are still there.

Basically, the problem I have is with the lack of forethought by the writers on the 'advisors' rules and the Ld rules. Of course, in 4th edition we have no Ld rules. We are all using the basic belief though that the highest Ld in the unit is used for tests even though the book doesn't tell us anything about this! It's the reason I use my JO's Ld 8 and not the guardsmen's ld 7 in the same command squad. So with that belief why don't we use the Commissar's Ld 10? Well, even though it isn't backed up by RAW I think we can all assume that the intent was to use the CO/Sgt's Ld with a +1 on it until he's killed. At that time the unit will begin to use the Commissar's Ld 10. This is only because of the poorly worded descriprion of 'Summary Execution' on page 41 and the following paragraph explaining the +1 Ld. So does a unit without a CO/Sgt follows the same (assumed) rules? That could be the intent, but who knows?

The final piece of fuel to this fire that I will add is this: Does this magical Ld anomaly only apply to Commissars or is it an advisor rule? If a platoon command squad has a psyker with an Honorifica in it does it use the JO's Ld (8) or the psyker's Ld (9)?