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 kodos wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

So then, how do we distinguish those differences? Variation in Health is the quickest, most effective method. This would A - Streamline the damage process and the required learning of it, and B - give players a clearer idea of how durable their units are.

of course, if every hit strips 1 Healthpoint is clear and stremalined
to give more variation on the hit rolls to have more difference between units, we roll 2 D6 instead of one and keep it streamlined

so unit A roll 4+, 4+ to hit with 10 shots and takes 3 HP on average and the target makes 3 saves

it is simple as you don't need care about anything than the save of the target as this is the only difference


it is just not 40k, as we have now Toughness 1-10 and 2+ - 6+ save, gives about 50 possible variations that are cut down to simply 5.
of course you can make the handling of those 50 possibilities easier by removing 45 of them, but this is not what I would call streamlining the rules



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

from a realistic point of view, no
small calibre fire never ever kills heavy armour,

from a gameplay point of view, the "everything should be able to kill everything" it only makes sence of you want cut down the variation and make a very simple game were everything is similar

You could get really lucky and hit the crew. Leaving it empty is basically the same as killing a tank.

Youn wrote:
Easiest way to make vehicles work is as follows:


Current AV -- New Save
14 - 0+
13 - 1+
12 - 2+
11 - 3 +
10 - 4+
Saves below 2+ always save...


And make some weapons that say:
Meltagun Rend -2 double damage vs vehicles
Plasma Rend -2 (Causes Mortal wound on 1 to firer, on 6 causes Mortal wound to target)
Lascannon Rend -3
Distortion Cannon (Causes mortal wounds)

Bolter Rend -1
Lasgun Rend 0
Autogun Rend 0
Shuriken Catapult Rend -1

See pretty simple once you make a landraider something like 16 wounds. It will make it very sturdy. And you will need quite a few shots to kill it.

If we go by Youn's example (we are, aren't we?) A Land Raider has a 0+ armor save (av 14 -> 0+) and 16 wounds. So a Lasgun with "5+ to hit, 5+ to wound, no rend, 1 damage", can't kill a Land Raider, not after 900 shots and not after 9 000 000.

I don't think this discussion is getting anywhere, if we are not being honest with the suggestions, we so strongly oppose.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One rumor I heard somewhere (can't remember if it was this thread) was that overwatch will be a thing of the past. This concerns me, as good overwatch is the thing that sets my Dark Angels apart from regular Space Marines. Of course, if they redo the Dark Angels stuff along with everything else to be more like AoS I suppose I can hope they throw the boys in green (and black and tan) a bone.

In general, I just hope I don't have to have a longer beard than my opponent to trigger any abilities. Or anything else of that nature.

I feel like over-watch should be a thing that a unit needs to setup to do (declared during your own turn). Its also why I'm fond of attackers going first in assaults.

AS it stands, units can be running through the battlefield, laying fire at one unit, be attacked by another and are somehow ready not only to lay fire into the attacking unit, but also receive the melee and strike first if they have better initiative. Id much rather if a unit had to choose in their turn that they were gonna prepare to be assaulted; it would make for more meaningful placement of bubble wrap models.

From a realistic point of view.....in a game.....

Although, there is no way you will ever convince me in the history of armored warfare that a tank wasn't stopped because someone got lucky and shot the driver through his viewport.

Hell, just the other day there was news story of a pistol being jammed by a bullet from another pistol shot down the barrel.

Things happen, this is not outside the realm of possibilities.

I was thinking it would be something like roll less than your armour value (after mods) on 2 dice with something like double 1's always failing...

edit: scarp that i'd make tanks insane... it aint easy rules

If we moved to a fixed to hit and wound system AND vehicles were given a normal unit profile instead of the AV system I would imagine that the rules would be balanced for that.

Save modifiers could potentially mean that tougher vehicles can still be immune, or nearly immune to small arms fire. We could also go with an idea like Youn's. Weapons like meltaguns could be made to do more wounds than 1 to keep them as powerful anti-tank weapons, but also make them more useful versus monsters. This would also prevent attacking tanks as being based soley on AP, so you can have some granularity in the weaponry used for anti-tank.

Thinking about it, I think it would be a more enjoyable model for vehicles than the current system, but that's just me.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

Maybe they found a crack in the armor, a window, some crazy ricochet....

If it takes 900 shots, then it should take 900 shots.

That is nigh impossible I'm afraid.

A 5.56x45 caliber round (Standard modern day battle rifle caliber) or even a 7.62x39 caliber round (AK-47 caliber) will never, ever, ever realistically hurt a modern day main battle tank.

You can fire thousands.. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands... of rounds at a tank and you're going to mess up the paint. That's it. You may ding an optic, but that's about all.

A lasrifle or laspistol, even a hellgun or hellpistol, are not going to do anything meaningful to an armored vehicle.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

A few machine gun rounds in the same place could penetrate a world war 1 tank however.
And 40k tanks looks like ww1 tanks. So i dont see how any viewpoint is wrong.

And a Snotling inside the wrong gear could take down a Titan. Such is the 41st Millenium. :-D

Well, what people tend to forget is that a basic bolter round is a 30mm rocket propelled projectile.

A lasgun is a laser.

A 30mm projectile will absolutely penetrate a modern tank and it happens very regularly.

I haven't seen any technical specs on a lasgun, but I'm pretty sure a laser would penetrate a tank on some point of that tank, at some point in time.

A 30mm round is no longer effective at destroying modern MBT's. If a lucky shot hits top armor or possibly a weak spot in rear armor it could get through, but it likely wouldn't make it into the crew compartment from a rear shot. You could still disable the tank by hitting its track though.

This is why they considered retiring the A-10 (even though it could carry modern missiles which are more than up to the job). This is against only the most modern of tanks and up so Russian T-90 models and their worldwide equivalents and up. So anything older than the absolute newest of the new is more vulnerable.

If you go with the rules, I suggested. It pretty much makes vehicles able to stand up against things they are supposed to and die to thing that their also supposed to die to.

For those players that don't understand Normal vs Mortal wounds in AoS. A normal wound requires a save, a Mortal wound you get no save at all.

Therefore, my example of the d-cannon would just do a 1d3 or 1d6 wounds off a vehicle, with no saves. It would do the same to a squad.

The plasma gun/cannon is pretty much a deadly variant of a weapon. That might make Tau actually too powerful as their rifles don't get hot.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

Maybe they found a crack in the armor, a window, some crazy ricochet....

If it takes 900 shots, then it should take 900 shots.

That is nigh impossible I'm afraid.

A 5.56x45 caliber round (Standard modern day battle rifle caliber) or even a 7.62x39 caliber round (AK-47 caliber) will never, ever, ever realistically hurt a modern day main battle tank.

You can fire thousands.. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands... of rounds at a tank and you're going to mess up the paint. That's it. You may ding an optic, but that's about all.

A lasrifle or laspistol, even a hellgun or hellpistol, are not going to do anything meaningful to an armored vehicle.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

My GK army has two items in it that have very different power levels for the same points. If you compare my Dreadnought to my Dreadknight. You have AV vs MC. The MC wins out every single time for pretty much the same points.

I want my Dreadnoughts to have meaning in my army also.

 davou wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

Maybe they found a crack in the armor, a window, some crazy ricochet....

If it takes 900 shots, then it should take 900 shots.

That is nigh impossible I'm afraid.

A 5.56x45 caliber round (Standard modern day battle rifle caliber) or even a 7.62x39 caliber round (AK-47 caliber) will never, ever, ever realistically hurt a modern day main battle tank.

You can fire thousands.. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands... of rounds at a tank and you're going to mess up the paint. That's it. You may ding an optic, but that's about all.

A lasrifle or laspistol, even a hellgun or hellpistol, are not going to do anything meaningful to an armored vehicle.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

yes, but that would be much longer than the timeframe that a game takes place in.

A real battle would also take longer.

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

yes, but that would be much longer than the timeframe that a game takes place in.

I for one refuse to play any wargame that doesn't model the eventual dissolution of all matter by the thermodynamic heat death of the universe.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Well, what people tend to forget is that a basic bolter round is a 30mm rocket propelled projectile.

A lasgun is a laser.

A 30mm projectile will absolutely penetrate a modern tank and it happens very regularly.

I haven't seen any technical specs on a lasgun, but I'm pretty sure a laser would penetrate a tank on some point of that tank, at some point in time.

30mm? More like Coke can sized, I thought?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davou wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

Maybe they found a crack in the armor, a window, some crazy ricochet....

If it takes 900 shots, then it should take 900 shots.

That is nigh impossible I'm afraid.

A 5.56x45 caliber round (Standard modern day battle rifle caliber) or even a 7.62x39 caliber round (AK-47 caliber) will never, ever, ever realistically hurt a modern day main battle tank.

You can fire thousands.. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands... of rounds at a tank and you're going to mess up the paint. That's it. You may ding an optic, but that's about all.

A lasrifle or laspistol, even a hellgun or hellpistol, are not going to do anything meaningful to an armored vehicle.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

Ah, so you know my Tyranid tactics... heck... <packs Tyranids away>

 Formerly Wu wrote:

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

yes, but that would be much longer than the timeframe that a game takes place in.

I for one refuse to play any wargame that doesn't model the eventual dissolution of all matter by the thermodynamic heat death of the universe.

This is why I insist on informing my regular opponents that they have never won a battle against me. They have simply forced me into a temporary retreat while I prepare for the next skirmish in the ongoing war. 0-16 record, my ass!

 doctortom wrote:

 davou wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
Except, lasguns SHOULD be able to kill a Land Raider, at some point, through some method.

Maybe they found a crack in the armor, a window, some crazy ricochet....

If it takes 900 shots, then it should take 900 shots.

That is nigh impossible I'm afraid.

A 5.56x45 caliber round (Standard modern day battle rifle caliber) or even a 7.62x39 caliber round (AK-47 caliber) will never, ever, ever realistically hurt a modern day main battle tank.

You can fire thousands.. Thousands upon thousands upon thousands... of rounds at a tank and you're going to mess up the paint. That's it. You may ding an optic, but that's about all.

A lasrifle or laspistol, even a hellgun or hellpistol, are not going to do anything meaningful to an armored vehicle.

Just clarifying that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You realize that wind and water can both destroy pretty much anything given enough time? if you build a machine that fired bullets at a tank forever, eventually you would punch a hole through it.

yes, but that would be much longer than the timeframe that a game takes place in.

yes, and wind/water are also orders of magnitute less destrutive than bullets or military lazers.

in gaunts ghosts a lasgun set on high punches through a chaos marines armor. So we can assume safely that its at least strong enough to burn through ceramics (since there's no kinetic energy involved that simplifies things alot).

Hiqh quality modern ceramics can withstand firing upto 3000 degress over hours for setting them; but for the sake of argument lets assume that space marines are using really gakky ceramite that fails at around 1000 degrees.

My Skutt 1027 (7 cubic feet) is 11520 Watts. Divide by 1000 to get kiloWatts. 11520/1000=11.52 kW

found this person who descrieb the energy consumption of his kiln used to fire ceramics. He mentioned needing to run that thing for upwards of 8 hours to set ceramics, but we assumed that this was cheap crap for the sake of argument, so lets say its running for 1 hour only to achieve a temperature high enough to cause the ceramic to fail to the point where it can be burned though, or at least looses integrity enough to fall apart.

lets also be more generous, and round that number down to 10KW. So for the sake of our argument, one lasgun, set on high should be able to at least deliver as much energy as 10kw in order to punch through just the ceramic on power armor. (ignoring the fact that it also has to then go through adamantium and whatever else power armor is made of, plus the biomass of the marine inside). And all that assumes that this ceramite is made of dollar store crap porcelain, not high grade military ceramics.

Heres a video of a single 10kw lazer.


The thing with a rain of bullets, is that two of them can't hit one spot at one time owing to the fact that they cannot occupy the same space at the same time. One has to hit, plink off and then the next has to hit the space thats been cleared out.

50, 100 or 500 lasers can focus all at the same spot, because they can occupy the same space; even if by some fluke some photons bump others out of the way (and im pretty sure that they can't owing to having no mass) the ammount of them that don't get plinged off course is immense. BUT lets for the sake of argument assume that a full 10th of all the photons in this barrage are defelcted en route by dust, or bump off course some how. So suddenly those 50 lasguns are equivalent to 45.

if you managed to put all those beams on the same spot, you'd have about 450kw lazer effect(provided of course some magic 1 to 1 000 000 000 000 000 000 fluke didn't happen and the lazers were all in phase cancelling each other out.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/transcoded/8/8c/Laser_Weapon_System_%28LaWS%29_demonstration_aboard_USS_Ponce.webm/Laser_Weapon_System_%28LaWS%29_demonstration_aboard_USS_Ponce.webm.480p.webm

Thats a video of a 150kw laser shooting at a mockup of a weapon.... It heated the steel of the weapon so quickly that it caused an explosion.... It literally gasified steel so fast that the steel around it needed to explode out of the way so that the super heated steel gas could escape as it expanded. and its only 33% as strong as our array of 50 lasguns would be (even accounting for the fact that we have been downplaying the strength of the lasgun at every estimate we made)

AND THEN there's the fact that this is a game.... All the math in the world does not matter if the end result is rules that amount to a problem from a junior physics textbook and are no fun. The fact is, having a very slim chance of causing something big and scary to go up in smoke by firing at it with a weak piddly unit is fun. No it should not happen often, but if it can happen, and someone skews the odds by doing it 400 times, then it's perfectly fine that it works out.

Having indestructible units is not good for the game. It wasn't good with biker-nobs, it wasn't good with draigo-wing, it wasn't good with screamer stars, it isn't good with tau superheavies. If people want to play a game where their units literally can't be hurt, then they should pickup lego star wars. Having every unit be able to hurt every other unit not only makes sense in the real world, but it makes for a game that's interesting rather than a tedious arms race.

Having indestructible units is not good for the game

who was talking about that?
there is a wide gab between "every weapon can kill everything on 6+" and "units can't be hurt at all"

you don't need top go from one extreme to the other.

Having every unit be able to hurt every other unit not only makes sense in the real world, but it makes for a game that's interesting rather than a tedious arms race

no it has nothing to do with real world and it makes a game not interesting if the answer to everything is "spam the cheapest unit you have"

 kodos wrote:

there is a wide gab between "every weapon can kill everything on 6+" and "units can't be hurt at all"
you have"

No one said a lasgun should kill a landraider, but the argument seems to be here that it shouldn't ever have the chance to ever hurt it period.

Loving all the 8E news & rumour discussion going on here folks. It's nice checking back into this thread for new developments, only to find several pages of amateur game design theory. If only there were a place to discuss that.

 xttz wrote:
Loving all the 8E news & rumour discussion going on here folks. It's nice checking back into this thread for new developments, only to find several pages of amateur game design theory. If only there were a place to discuss that.

Yeah...That's what I love to read about.... I don't even want to comb through everything to find the rumors anymore. So much speculation not enough rumoring.

Never use the real world to base an argument about the grim darkness of the far future.

Youn wrote:
If you go with the rules, I suggested. It pretty much makes vehicles able to stand up against things they are supposed to and die to thing that their also supposed to die to.

For those players that don't understand Normal vs Mortal wounds in AoS. A normal wound requires a save, a Mortal wound you get no save at all.

Therefore, my example of the d-cannon would just do a 1d3 or 1d6 wounds off a vehicle, with no saves. It would do the same to a squad.

The plasma gun/cannon is pretty much a deadly variant of a weapon. That might make Tau actually too powerful as their rifles don't get hot.

Disclaimer : I hate game design where you have a lot of stats, but some mechanics make them meaningless.

Following this, I think mortal wound is a bad thing, because you have stats, and even the most damaging weapon should use them.
Otherwise, It's a scale problem, and either this weapon don't belong tothis game, or you stats should accomodate for it.

Note : I think that D-Weapons are equally stupid, even with the classical GW design of 1 = nothing happens!

 kodos wrote:

Having indestructible units is not good for the game

who was talking about that?
there is a wide gab between "every weapon can kill everything on 6+" and "units can't be hurt at all"

you don't need top go from one extreme to the other.

Having every unit be able to hurt every other unit not only makes sense in the real world, but it makes for a game that's interesting rather than a tedious arms race

no it has nothing to do with real world and it makes a game not interesting if the answer to everything is "spam the cheapest unit you have"

Except that is not how the reality of such a system should (and I stress should) work. If a squad with melta guns can down a land raider in say an average of 12 Shots, but lasguns take 250 shots, then spamming cheap lasgun models only works if the melta gun models/units, cost 22 times as much. Otherwise if still makes sense to take the specialized unit.

The point is that you don't want games where you can do absolutely nothing with some of your units. In some ways I wish there were more things for units to do than just sit on objectives, or kill things. But in the case where these are what things generally do it makes more sense for all units to be able to do them, just not equally. In this case melta guns might only kill 4 infantry models with their 12 shots, but be able to kill a land raider. Vs those lasguns might kill more infantry due to having more shots, but are effectively useless against the land raider.

I have never seen an army completely out of Land Raiders
so the argument that lasguns are sitting sround useless because they cannot wound them is stupid

and actually they never could wound them and until now I never heard that anyone wants them to.

actually it is the other way around, people want their tanks more though (and that glancing to death need to go) and not more vulnerable against anti-infantry fire

Am I crazy or were there rumors of the 8th starter containing sisters of battle?

The former hypothesis is completely possible.

 kodos wrote:
I have never seen an army completely out of Land Raiders
so the argument that lasguns are sitting sround useless because they cannot wound them is stupid

and actually they never could wound them and until now I never heard that anyone wants them to.

actually it is the other way around, people want their tanks more though (and that glancing to death need to go) and not more vulnerable against anti-infantry fire

Tanks can be both more resilient over all and still be somewhat vulnerable to infantry fire; a riptide is way more resiliant than a land raider as the rules stand, but can be wounded by a lasgun. No one is trying to argue that a single lucky lasgun shot should cause the hardest tanks to explode; but a single lucky lasgun shot after a whole games worth of lascannon and melta shots just might.

There may have been rumors about 8th and sisters, but TBH, I wouldn't count on them to be worth anything Rumors involving sisters have a history of being disagreeable.

Also, I dont think that this discussion is too off topic, considering that one of the rumors presented has been that vehicles will be changed, and that the game will move towards AOS style cards... We're just runing with whether or not that's a good or bad change.