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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Foreign nationals and corporations are not allowed to do so because such donations would violate FEC laws.


If the FEC consistently enforced it's definition of "foreign national" no Jew could vote, or donate to a political cause; yet they do.


Wrong. Any Jew that has Israeli citizenship would be a foreign national but not all Jews are Israeli citizens and America Jews that apply for Israeli citizenship can obtain dual nationality and retain their US citizenship. The Law of Return makes it easier for the majority of Jews to become Israeli citizens but they still have to apply for citizenship. My Jewish relatives aren't automatically Israeli citizens but it would be much easier for them to become Israeli citizens then it would be for me because I'm not Jewish.

http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Et In Arcadia Ego





Canterbury

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
 sebster wrote:


I also think there's a big issue with the weird fixation only on foreign money. Big money is problematic, whether the person is foreign or American. You think the Koch brothers have your best interests at heart any more than a Chinese billionaire?


Arguably, the Chinese billionaire might actually be better concerned with our interests, as he likely wants to just continue manufacturing and selling stuff to Americans and American businesses rather than pushing any particular political ideology.



US citizens and corporations can pour money into political campaigns and buy access to candidates and incumbents with donations because the US Supreme Court ruled it legal in the Citizens United and McCutheon cases. Foreign nationals and corporations are not allowed to do so because such donations would violate FEC laws.

Do I think pouring money into political races is good for the system, political discourse and the nation as a whole? No I don't. I'd rather the system be run in a way that emphasizes issues and positions rather than whatever wealthy people/corporations/groups want to buy advocacy for but that isn't the system we have and we won't get it without new federal laws and overturned SCotUS precedents.


I certainly do not disagree with any of that. I think the point I was trying to make is that just because someone is American doesn't necessarily mean they really have Americans' best interests at heart. Which is the same thing Sebster was saying, i guess. Sorry, posting from my phone makes it harder to get my thoughts in order.


I agree that US citizens donating to election campaigns or incumbent politicians don't necessarily have the best interests of the US in mind when they donate to gain advantages for whatever policy/position they're advocating but that has nothing to do with why we only allow US citizens to donate to political campaigns/politicians. US citizens can donate because the elected officials represent US citizens so the people they represent are allowed to donate to the people who are supposed to be representing their interests within the government. Trump donated to Hillary Clinton's senatorial campaign because as a senator from NY HIllary would be making decisions that would impact Trump because he's a NYC resident and has business holdings/interests in NY. If Trump were a French Parisian then Hillary would not be representing him as a senator for NY so foreign national Parisian Trump isn't allowed to donate to HIllary's campaign because he's not a constituent. The FEC law prohibiting foreign nationals from contributing to campaigns/politicians is designed to keep foreign nationals who aren't constituents from influencing US politicians/elections because the only people that are supposed to be influencing politicians in a representative republic are the constituents the representatives are representing.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........


Hey, as long as she has valid photo ID then she is obviously fine to vote!

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 reds8n wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........


Awesome! Call that hipocrite out!

Also, “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” I "made a construction" once. I'm not allowed in that Lowes anymore. I'm not sure if it's all Lowes or just the one branch.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




North Carolina

 sebster wrote:



Prestor Jon wrote:
US citizens and corporations can pour money into political campaigns and buy access to candidates and incumbents with donations because the US Supreme Court ruled it legal in the Citizens United and McCutheon cases. Foreign nationals and corporations are not allowed to do so because such donations would violate FEC laws.


Yes, I think we all know the legality of the two situations. What I'd like to talk about is whether on a real, practical level, reliance on donations from domestic billionaires are actually less harmful to a democracy than donations from foreign billionaires. If they're not actually more harmful, why do we tolerate either?

Do I think pouring money into political races is good for the system, political discourse and the nation as a whole? No I don't. I'd rather the system be run in a way that emphasizes issues and positions rather than whatever wealthy people/corporations/groups want to buy advocacy for but that isn't the system we have and we won't get it without new federal laws and overturned SCotUS precedents.


Sure, and I accept that resolving that issue is going to be very difficult. The Citizens United ruling was problematic in a lot of ways, but it did start from a position of highlighting concerns with the old regime.

But Citizens United was decided 6 years ago. Since then the Democrats have formed a position that basically amounts to 'reverse Citizens United' with seemingly no effort to look for a new regime that might control political donations without threatening free speech. Meanwhile the Republicans' position seems to be 'something something Clinton, both sides, never forget Benghazi, no you shut up'.


US billionaires can donate to US campaigns and politician because that's their right as US citizens. We have a representative republic so citizens are allowed to donate to the politicians that are ostensibly representing their interests. Foreign nationals aren't constituents so they aren't allowed to make political donations because the US political system belongs to US citizens not foreign nationals.

Does allowing billionaires to spend uncapped amounts of money making political donations create a corrupted system that encourages politicians to court the favor of the super rich few rather than the approval of regular people that make up the vast majority of the electorate? Yes. I think you and I would probably both agree with most if not all of Justice Breyer's dissent in the McCutcheon case http://www.fec.gov/law/litigation/mccutcheon_sc_opinion.pdf but unfortunately the McCutcheon case was decided in line with Robert's majority opinion which is pretty crazy as he limits the definition with very narrow parameters.

http://www.commoncause.org/democracy-wire/the-5-most-absurd-quotes-in-mccutcheon-v-fec-decision.html
Spoiler:
The 5 Most Absurd Quotes in the McCutcheon v FEC Decision

Posted on April 9, 2014
Written by Stephen Spaulding & Arn Pearson

Last week's 5-4 Supreme Court decision in McCutcheon v. FEC was a blow to an open and vibrant democracy that stakes its legitimacy on the robust participation of all citizens' voices -- not just the very wealthy.

Chief Justice Roberts and four of his colleagues struck down the overall ("aggregate") limit that an individual donor could give to candidates, political parties and political action committees combined.*

Until last week, the aggregate limit stood at $123,200 -- more than twice the average annual income for a family of four. Now individual donors will be able to write checks for as much as $3.6 million a pop to a joint fundraising committee. This means that special interests will buy "a very, very special place at the table," as Justice Kagan warned in October's oral argument.

Below are five of the most out-of-touch quotes from the decision. We hope they motivate you to call your Members of Congress and demand solutions -- from public financing, to disclosure legislation, to confirming new Federal Election Commissioners, to enacting a constitutional amendment -- that reclaim our democracy as one of, by, and for the people.

1. "Spending large sums of money in connection with elections, but not in connection with an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder's duties, does not give rise to quid pro quo corruption. Nor does the possibility that an individual who spends large sums may garner " influence over or access to' elected officials."

This strains credulity and defies common sense. The big problem here is that the Court plurality has decided that nothing counts as corruption -- except bribery. Forget undue influence, conflicts of interest created by too-cozy relationships, or fear of getting hammered by a flood of negative ads. If it's not cash-for-a-vote, it doesn't count in their book.

Having set up the question so narrowly, Chief Justice Roberts gets to spike the ball with ease. But the rest of us out here in the real world know this just doesn't make sense.

First, how is spending "large sums of money in connection with elections" anything other than an effort to control the exercise of an officeholder's duties? Major donors expect more than a grip-and-grin photo with a candidate. They expect access and influence over legislative outcomes. Although not a single member of the Supreme Court has ever solicited a campaign contribution in his or her professional career, that's no excuse for the stunning navet̩ in McCutcheon.

Second, as an appellate court, the Supreme Court is not supposed to handpick facts. The Chief Justice should have left it to the lower court to evaluate, in an evidentiary record, what does-or-does-not "give rise to quid pro quo corruption."

In another major campaign finance case, McConnell v. FEC, there was just such a record. It numbered over 100,000 pages and included the testimony of 200 witnesses. Justice Breyer includes substantial portions of it in the appendix to his dissent in McCutcheon.

For example, one former Republican Senator, the late Warren Rudman, testified that large sums of money spent in connection with elections "distort the legislative process. They affect what gets done and how it gets done." Another former Republican Senator, Alan Simpson, asked in his testimony, "who, after all, can seriously contend that a $100,000 donation does not alter the way one thinks about -- and quite possibly votes -- on an issue?" These examples barely scratch the surface but are worth reprinting because they come straight from the horse's mouth.

This is why Justice Stephen Breyer, unlike the Chief Justice, could credibly write in his dissent to McCutcheon that a "candidate who solicits a multimillion dollar check for his party will be deeply grateful to the checkwriter, and surely could reward him with a quid pro quo favor."

2. "The only type of corruption that Congress may target is quid pro quo corruption."

Not so, according to even a cursory review of Supreme Court precedent pre-McCutcheon.

Justice Breyer sprinkles his dissent with quotes from other Supreme Court cases that have "firmly established" other types of corruption that Congress may lawfully target to protect the integrity of our democratic institutions from "privileged access to and pernicious influence upon elected representatives." For example:
•"Our cases have firmly established that Congress' legitimate interest extends beyond preventing simple cash-for-votes corruption to curbing " undue influence on an officeholder's judgment, and the appearance of such influence.'" (McConnell v. FEC);
•"[T]he broader threat from politicians too compliant with the wishes of large contributors" (Nixon v. Shrink Missouri PAC);
•"Undue influence on an officeholder's judgment;" (FEC v. Beaumont) and
•"[T]he danger that officeholders will decide issues not on the merits or the desires of their constituencies, but according to the wishes of those who have made large financial contributions valued by the officeholder" (McConnell v. FEC).

In an act of blatant judicial activism, the Court's conservative majority has bucked decades of precedent in order to frame the government interest at stake in campaign finance regulation as narrowly as possible. Quid pro quo corruption was a justification for limiting campaign contributions in Buckley, but not the only justification. The majority in Buckley v. Valeo wrote:

Contribution limits are the "primary weapons against the reality or appearance of improper influence stemming from the dependence of candidates on large campaign contributions," and

That they "serve[d] the basic governmental interest in safeguarding the integrity of the electoral process without directly impinging upon the rights of individual citizens and candidates to engage in political debate and discussion."

Finally, the Court has long recognized since its landmark decision in Buckley that curbing the "appearance of corruption" is also an important (and constitutional) justification for contribution limits. As Rick Hasen explains more fully here, this independent basis for campaign finance regulations "all but disappear[ed]" in McCutcheon.

3. "It is hard to see how a candidate today could receive a "massive amount of money' that could be traced back to a particular contributor uninhibited by the aggregate limits. " These scenarios [such as large scale joint fundraising committees] are "divorced from reality."

Here, Chief Justice Roberts disputes whether under existing regulations (for example, earmarking rules) a donor can lawfully circumvent base contribution limits to funnel hundreds of thousands of dollars to a soliciting candidate. Justice Breyer described exactly how donors will do so lawfully in his dissent, writing that the "methods for using today's opinion to evade the law's individual contribution limits are complex, but they are well known, or will become well known, to party fundraisers." Moreover, to the extent they're applicable, ongoing dysfunction at the FEC renders any hope of enforcement of existing regulations a pipe dream. Don't just take our word for it -- read what the FEC Vice Chair Ann Ravel had to say in the New York Times the day after the Court issued its opinion in McCutcheon ("How Not to Enforce Campaign Laws").

The reality is that mega-donors will have far more influence in the legislative process post-McCutcheon, and the most sophisticated operators know it. It's the plurality opinion of the Court that is "divorced from reality."

Hours after McCutcheon became the law of the land, Covington & Burling LLP, a major Washington law firm, issued a client alert to the corporations, lobbyists, PACs and high net worth individuals it represents on election law matters. Its attorneys crowed about new ways to pump money directly into candidate and party coffers, informing clients that:

[O]ne major effect of today's decision will be the expansion of Joint Fundraising Committees (JFCs) as a tool. " [W]e expect to see the emergence of large "Super JFCs" that will have many candidate participants. These Super JFCs will be able to accept very large contributions in a single check. "_ Going forward, we expect today's decision will increase the political power of Members of Congress who have strong relationships with high net worth donors. We expect it to increase the influence of major donors. "_ Congressional leaders, Committee Chairs, and those with similar organizational power in Congress may be able to earn the loyalty of less influential Members by including them in a JFC for which the leader or Chair is soliciting contributions. But it will also allow power to collect around any Member who can command a national or regional base of wealthy donors.

If you're interested in all the permutations for how candidates will soon be soliciting, and donors contributing, $1 million, $2 million, or $3 million dollar amounts, you can find them here from our colleague Fred Wertheimer at Democracy 21.

4. "The Government may no more restrict how many candidates or causes a donor may support than it may tell a newspaper how many candidates to endorse."

Except that "the Government" made no such restriction for the 40-years that aggregate contribution limits were on the books. Here, the McCutcheon plurality conflates "support" with the ability to give huge amounts, something Buckley explicitly rejected, saying:

[A] limitation upon the amount that any one person or group may contribute to a candidate or political committee entails only a marginal restriction upon the contributor's ability to engage in free communication. A contribution serves as a general expression of support for the candidate and his views, but does not communicate the underlying basis for the support. The quantity of communication by the contributor does not increase perceptibly with the size of his contribution, since the expression rests solely on the undifferentiated, symbolic act of contributing.

Under the aggregate limits, Shaun McCutcheon (the plaintiff who joined with the Republican National Committee in filing suit) could support as many candidates or causes as he desired. Moreover, just as a newspaper could endorse every single candidate running for Congress, so could he. Under the aggregate limits, Mr. McCutcheon was free to write checks to every single candidate running for Congress -- just not over a total amount Congress determined raised corruption concerns.

In McCutcheon, the Court said that's not enough, and implicitly overturned Buckley on this point.

5. "In assessing the First Amendment interests at stake, the proper focus is on an individual's right to engage in political speech, not a collective conception of the public good."

First Amendment interests are not a zero sum game of the individual versus democracy.

Courts have had to balance a person's right to free speech against competing interests ever since the First Amendment was adopted. You can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater or defame someone's reputation, and your opponent gets equal time in a court proceeding.

The First Amendment protects the right of all citizens -- not just the wealthy few -- to have their voices heard by their government. It stands to reason that a privileged few should not be able to drown out the rest of us. The very integrity and nature of a representative democracy depends on everyone having a say. Justice Breyer underscored this at oral argument, asking "if the average person thinks that what he says exercising his First Amendment rights just can't have an impact through public opinion upon his representative, he says: "What is the point of the First Amendment?'"

As he wrote in his dissent, "the First Amendment advances not only the individual's right to engage in political speech, but also the public's interest in preserving a democratic order in which collective speech matters"_ Where enough money calls the tune, the general public will not be heard."

Democracy is neither inclusive nor robust without a multitude of citizens communicating their views to each other and their elected officials. Big money corrodes that dialogue, skewing public policy priorities and shutting voters out from the democratic process.

The Supreme Court has recognized this critical balance for generations. Until now. Chief Justice Roberts's willingness to impose a new libertarian ideology that hands the reins of power over to the wealthy and powerful, while undermining public confidence in America's democracy, leaves most of us "_ well "_ speechless.

*(Justice Thomas wrote a concurring opinion, expressing his view that the Court should have gone even further -- subjecting contribution limits to a legal standard of review that would strike down even baseline, individual contribution limits, including what an individual can give to one campaign).


https://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/04/22/14611/mccutcheon-decision-explained-more-money-pour-political-process
Spoiler:
What did the Supreme Court do?

In essence, the court said that the government cannot prevent citizens from giving campaign contributions to as many different candidates and political parties as they want. Previously, they were capped under the “aggregate limit” rule.

What were the limits?

Prior to the case, known as McCutcheon v. Federal Election Commission, individuals were prohibited from giving more than $48,600 combined to all federal candidates. They were also prohibited from giving more than $74,600 combined to all parties and political action committees. Altogether that added up to $123,200. These aggregate limits are now gone.

Does that mean donors can give a candidate as much as they want?

No. Because the Supreme Court upheld the existing “base” contribution limits, McCutcheon does not mean that billionaires are free to give as much money as they want to any particular candidate.

The maximum amount one donor can give each candidate is still $2,600 per election, or $5,200 counting the primary and general election. The maximum contribution to a national party committee is still $32,400, and the maximum PAC contribution is still $5,000.

Why do aggregate contribution limits exist in the first place?

Congress created the aggregate limit rule to prevent donors from circumventing the base limits by contributing to several groups, which would in turn give that money to a single candidate.

But the rules have changed since the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971, when aggregate limits were introduced. Now, if one donor used a network of affiliated PACs to fund a single federal candidate, he or she would be breaking the law.

So what does McCutcheon mean for candidates?

Candidates can now more easily band together and raise big money from the same individuals through legal entities called “joint fundraising committees.” These committees let contributors write a single large check to an umbrella group, which, in turn, splits the money up among several beneficiaries.

In recent years, joint fundraising committees have proliferated, and McCutcheon has empowered them to become even bigger. Cue the “jumbo" joint fundraising committees.

How much money are we talking about?

The short answer is we don’t know. During the 2012 election, both President Barack Obama and Republican Mitt Romney operated joint fundraising groups that often asked each donor to give $75,800 — one of the aggregate limits at the time. This money was then split between each man’s campaign and various party groups. Now, the sky’s the limit, but it remains to be seen how it’ll play out in practice.

What does McCutcheon mean for the political parties?

McCutcheon means more money for the national party committees. Want to give the legal maximum of $32,400 apiece to the national party committees of your choice? Now you can. In fact, the Republican National Committee, National Republican Senatorial Committee and the National Republican Congressional Committee have already formed a super-sized joint fundraising committee that is legally allowed to receive $97,200 per donor per year.

Will McCutcheon affect state laws too?

McCutcheon’s ripple effect could soon be coming to a state near you, and with it, more money from wealthy donors. At least eight states — and possibly as many as 20 — could see laws overturned, depending on how regulators, government officials and judges interpret the McCutcheon ruling.

How is the McCutcheon case different than Citizens United?

The Citizens United decision in 2010 didn’t affect contribution limits to candidates or parties. It affected spending. There’s a difference. Citizens United, along with a lower court ruling, allowed for unlimited donations from corporations, unions and individuals to go to super PACs and nonprofits, which, in turn, could spend the money on ads blasting or praising candidates. That’s not considered a corrupting influence because these groups are banned from coordinating their spending with candidates.

Why are some people so concerned about McCutcheon?

Campaign finance reform advocates are concerned about a sort of systemic corruption that may arise through the formation of jumbo joint fundraising committees. The leader — possibly a ranking party member — might become a sort of power broker, and the person who wrote the check would no doubt be remembered fondly as the Congress goes about its business.


http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/04/what-john-roberts-doesnt-get-about-corruption-105683_Page2.html#.V8BCyORTGUk
Spoiler:
In fact, some federal circuits’ definitions of quid pro quo encompass the exchange of money for unspecified influence—in other words, quid pro quo does not require that a particular governmental action be tied to the gift. In one important case, David Rosen, the former CEO of MediSys Health Network, was convicted for paying legislators to help him within the New York state legislature and state agencies. The officials he paid didn’t agree to perform specific official acts, but to help out in the future. Rosen appealed on the grounds that there was no quid pro quo because the governmental actions weren’t defined. In other words, he was paying for future influence, not for a particular thing. The Second Circuit rejected Rosen’s appeal and concluded—following established precedent—that quid pro quo encompasses even those situations where the quo can’t be tied to the quid. They call it “as opportunities arise” quid pro quo.

Chief Justice Roberts alludes to this problem briefly in his McCutcheon decision, when he writes, “The line between quid pro quo corruption and general influence may seem vague at times, but the distinction must be respected in order to safeguard basic First Amendment rights.” In other words: There is no line, respect the line. Roberts is right that vagueness is no reason to reject an important principle, making it all the more perplexing that he refuses to delve into the principle itself.

What ought he have done? Roberts should have engaged this lack of clarity more directly by moving past the term quid pro quo and talking about values, American history and political philosophy. There is no magic answer or way to define the corrupt from the not-corrupt, any more than there is a magic answer or way to distinguish “democracy” from “not democracy,” or “due process from “not due process,” or any other central American principle. For all of these, we would do better to plumb American history and democratic theory and the lived life of American politics. To put it gently, I find his process—for something so essential—disturbingly glib.

Roberts gets around these difficult questions by drawing on a particular set of meanings of quid pro quo that were never intended to define corruption. He cites McCormick v. United States, a 1991 case about a West Virginia state legislator named Robert McCormick who had sponsored legislation that was favorable to a group of foreign doctors. The problem was, McCormick had called the doctors’ lobbyist to tell him that his 1984 re-election campaign was getting expensive. According to the lobbyist, McCormick’s tone of voice—if not his actual words—strongly implied that he needed a campaign contribution. The lobbyist assumed the contribution would help the doctors’ proposed legislation, and the doctors duly pitched in with a series of small cash donations. When McCormick was convicted of violating federal bribery law, he appealed.

The Supreme Court overturned McCormick’s conviction and started stumbling toward a definition of what constituted corruption in the context of white-collar bribery law. In this context and only in this context, payments must have been made in return for an “explicit promise” to do (or not do) an official act.

So here is Roberts’s ringer, right? McCormick said that in campaign finance, that’s what quid pro quo means? Wrong. First, the justices in that case were interpreting a federal statute, not the Constitution. Second, the reason for their ruling was that Congress had created a kind of safe harbor around campaign donations under a certain amount when it enacted the post-Watergate campaign finance regime. In that opinion, they were upholding the regime—including the specific numerical rules encompassed in it. They used quid pro quo in this context for reasons that had nothing to do with any historical conception of corruption, or with any historical conception of quid pro quo: They did it because of concerns that the federal bribery laws, by their terms, would violate the due process clause. And they worried that if every $2,000 contribution made with intent to influence a candidate was a potential bribe, no one would fund campaigns, and Congress has implicitly endorsed private funding of campaigns.

The irony of the Citizens United and McCutcheon decisions is that they will create a greater push to use bribery prosecutions in close cases to deal with corruption. If Congress can’t pass simple, prophylactic rules—like aggregate limits—political pressure will fall on prosecutors to use statutes that require proof of corrupt intent. Many modern scholars dislike using these kinds bribery laws for corruption protection for the same reason the McCormick court did: It can lead to selective prosecution, and it puts an extraordinary amount of power in the hands of political opponents. Structural rules—like the kind the court struck down in McCutcheon—are better because there is none of that lack of clarity.

Structural rules also happen to be the kind of rules favored by America’s founding fathers, who rarely invoked criminal bribery laws in the hundreds of discussions they had about corruption. In fact, the framers fought constantly about the best ways to protect against corruption. They worried about excessive private interests overtaking the public sphere, a corruption that appeared constantly without any quid pro quo—it showed up when parliamentarians became too dependent on King George for jobs, it showed up when the king of France gave expensive gifts to diplomats, it showed up when people went into public office in order to get a sinecure.

Back then, the sinecure might have been at the post office; now, it is more frequently at a lobbying firm. This broader understanding of corruption—like quid pro quo—is also vague at the margins. But it represents a deep American value, one that Congress and the states have every right to defend in legislation limiting excessive contributions and expenditures.


The Democrats have tried to pass an amendment to the constitution that would overturn the SCofUS campaign finance decisions but unfortunately they've waited until they no longer have enough votes in the Senate to pass it without Republican support which doesn't appear to be forthcoming. I'm a bit disappointed in Sanders that he didn't push the issue harder in his run and do more to get Hillary to take a strong position on it.

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/217025-senate-advances-constitutional-amendment-on-campaign-spending
https://www.thenation.com/article/senate-tried-overturn-citizens-united-today-guess-what-stopped-them/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kronk wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........


Awesome! Call that hipocrite out!

Also, “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” I "made a construction" once. I'm not allowed in that Lowes anymore. I'm not sure if it's all Lowes or just the one branch.


It's clearly shady unethical behavior. It also highlights the fact that you can register to vote in Florida without providing any ID or verification that you actually reside at the address you put on the application. If Bannon had been required to show proof of residence at that address or to hold a current valid Florida driver's license then he never would have been able to get the fraudulent registration.

http://dos.myflorida.com/media/693757/dsde39.pdf

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 13:56:18


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United States

Prestor Jon wrote:

Wrong. Any Jew that has Israeli citizenship would be a foreign national but not all Jews are Israeli citizens and America Jews that apply for Israeli citizenship can obtain dual nationality and retain their US citizenship.


Making them a "foreign national" per your definition. You're clearly exempting Israeli citizens by way of dual nationality.

Would you do the same for Canadians? French? British? Spanish? Mexicans? Literally any other country where dual citizenship is involved?

Prestor Jon wrote:

The Law of Return makes it easier for the majority of Jews to become Israeli citizens but they still have to apply for citizenship. My Jewish relatives aren't automatically Israeli citizens but it would be much easier for them to become Israeli citizens then it would be for me because I'm not Jewish.


They are de facto citizens, if a non-Israeli Jew wants Israeli citizenship they will get it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 14:38:45


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North Carolina

 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

Wrong. Any Jew that has Israeli citizenship would be a foreign national but not all Jews are Israeli citizens and America Jews that apply for Israeli citizenship can obtain dual nationality and retain their US citizenship.


Making them a "foreign national" per your definition. You're clearly exempting Israeli citizens.

Prestor Jon wrote:

The Law of Return makes it easier for the majority of Jews to become Israeli citizens but they still have to apply for citizenship. My Jewish relatives aren't automatically Israeli citizens but it would be much easier for them to become Israeli citizens then it would be for me because I'm not Jewish.


They are de facto citizens, if a non-Israeli Jew wants Israeli citizenship they will get it.


If you retain US citizenship, even as part of dual citizenship, you are still a US citizen and therefore not a foreign national as defined by the FEC. If you are a foreign national residing in the US with a green card you are not a foreign national as defined by the FEC. The US govt recognizes US citizens with dual citizenship to be US citizens which makes them US nationals.
http://www.fec.gov/pages/brochures/foreign.shtml
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality/dual-nationality.html

IF a Jewish US citizen chooses to apply for Israeli citizenship and becomes an Israeli citizen and renounces their citizenship they would be a foreign national. The fact that American Jews can become Israeli citizens doesn't make them actual Israeli citizens until they go through the application process and get accepted. If I wanted to enroll in my local community college I know I would be accepted but I haven't actually enrolled so I am not a "de facto" student there. American Jews that are eligible to become Israeli citizens and American Jews that have successfully applied for Israeli citizenship are two different groups of people. And, as is stated in federal law the US doesn't revoke or stop recognizing US citizenship/US nationality just because a citizen obtains dual citizenship.

I have no problem with the US law, as explained by the State Dept website in the link above, that recognizes US citizenship as being equally valid whether the US citizen only has US citizenship or has US citizenship as part of dual citizenship. If a US citizen obtains dual US Canadian citizenship by marriage or other lawful means that person is still a US citizen/US national.

Here is the Federal Law that describes the process for a US national loses his/her US citizenship:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Loss_of_citizenship
In 1990, the U.S. State Department adopted new regulations which presume that an individual does not intend to give up citizenship when performing one of the above potentially expatriating acts.[49] If asked, the individual can always answer that they did not intend to give it up; this is sufficient to retain their citizenship.[50] Hence, the U.S. effectively allows citizens to acquire new citizenships while remaining a U.S. citizen, becoming a dual citizen.

After a U.S. citizen satisfies the Department of State procedures, the Department of State issues a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) signifying that the Department of State has accepted the U.S. Embassy/Consulate's recommendation to allow the renunciation.[51] Renunciation of citizenship includes renunciation of all rights and privileges of citizenship. A person who wants to renounce U.S. citizenship cannot decide to retain some of the privileges of citizenship, as the State Department regards this as logically inconsistent with the concept of renunciation.




This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 14:57:04


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United States

Prestor Jon wrote:
Foreign nationals aren't constituents so they aren't allowed to make political donations because the US political system belongs to US citizens not foreign nationals.


But people who qualify as "foreign nationals" frequently are constituents, and US citizens. I know many people who have citizenship in the US and another country, or set of countries. I also know many people who have resided here for a long time, and intend to keep doing so; they are constituents even if they aren't citizens.

Prestor Jon wrote:

If you retain US citizenship, even as part of dual citizenship, you are still a US citizen and therefore not a foreign national as defined by the FEC.


That is false. The sixth bullet point on the FEC page, which you quoted, says that anyone with foreign citizenship qualifies as a foreign national.

Prestor Jon wrote:
If I wanted to enroll in my local community college I know I would be accepted but I haven't actually enrolled so I am not a "de facto" student there.


If you're correct, then you are.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/26 14:57:44


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Sauce for the goose?
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJjp3gXDeNK/?hl=en

Whoooooo... it's not even September yet, and it's getting nasty already.

Poor Gary, Jill, and Evan are desperately trying to get everyone else's attention...

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North Carolina

 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
Foreign nationals aren't constituents so they aren't allowed to make political donations because the US political system belongs to US citizens not foreign nationals.


But people who qualify as "foreign nationals" frequently are constituents, and US citizens. I know many people who have citizenship in the US and another country, or set of countries. I also know many people who have resided here for a long time, and intend to keep doing so; they are constituents even if they aren't citizens.

Prestor Jon wrote:

If you retain US citizenship, even as part of dual citizenship, you are still a US citizen and therefore not a foreign national as defined by the FEC.


That is false. The sixth bullet point on the FEC page, which you quoted, says that anyone with foreign citizenship qualifies as a foreign national.

Prestor Jon wrote:
If I wanted to enroll in my local community college I know I would be accepted but I haven't actually enrolled so I am not a "de facto" student there.


If you're correct, then you are.


If you are a foreign national you can't be a constituent because you are not a US citizen and are not represented by the government of the nation of which you are not a citizen.

The bullet point on the FEC page is an oversimplification. You can read the full definition as stated in the Federal Election Campaign Act that is linked to on the FEC page. Here is the relevant text, it's in section 30121
Spoiler:
52 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2014 Edition
Title 52 - VOTING AND ELECTIONS
Subtitle III - Federal Campaign Finance
CHAPTER 301 - FEDERAL ELECTION CAMPAIGNS
SUBCHAPTER I - DISCLOSURE OF FEDERAL CAMPAIGN FUNDS
Sec. 30121 - Contributions and donations by foreign nationals
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov


§30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition

It shall be unlawful for—

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;

(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or

(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or


(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

(b) "Foreign national" defined

As used in this section, the term "foreign national" means—

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term "foreign national" shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States; or

(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.

(Pub. L. 92–225, title III, §319, formerly §324, as added Pub. L. 94–283, title I, §112(2), May 11, 1976, 90 Stat. 493; renumbered §319, Pub. L. 96–187, title I, §105(5), Jan. 8, 1980, 93 Stat. 1354; amended Pub. L. 107–155, title III, §§303, 317, Mar. 27, 2002, 116 Stat. 96, 109.)

Codification

Section was formerly classified to section 441e of Title 2, The Congress, prior to editorial reclassification and renumbering as this section.

Prior Provisions

A prior section 319 of Pub. L. 92–225 was renumbered section 314, and is classified to section 30115 of this title.

Another prior section 319 of Pub. L. 92–225 was renumbered section 318, and was classified to section 439b of Title 2, The Congress, prior to repeal by Pub. L. 96–187.

Amendments

2002—Pub. L. 107–155, §303(1), substituted "Contributions and donations by foreign nationals" for "Contributions by foreign nationals" in section catchline.

Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 107–155, §303(2), added subsec. (a) and struck out former subsec. (a) which read as follows: "It shall be unlawful for a foreign national directly or through any other person to make any contribution of money or other thing of value, or to promise expressly or impliedly to make any such contribution, in connection with an election to any political office or in connection with any primary election, convention, or caucus held to select candidates for any political office; or for any person to solicit, accept, or receive any such contribution from a foreign national."

Subsec. (b)(2). Pub. L. 107–155, §317, inserted "or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8)" after "United States".

Effective Date of 2002 Amendment

Amendment by Pub. L. 107–155 effective Nov. 6, 2002, see section 402 of Pub. L. 107–155, set out as an Effective Date of 2002 Amendment; Regulations note under section 30101 of this title.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1101
(20) The term “lawfully admitted for permanent residence” means the status of having been lawfully accorded the privilege of residing permanently in the United States as an immigrant in accordance with the immigration laws, such status not having changed.

(21) The term “national” means a person owing permanent allegiance to a state.

(22) The term “national of the United States” means (A) a citizen of the United States, or (B) a person who, though not a citizen of the United States, owes permanent allegiance to the United States.


https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/22/611
(b) The term “foreign principal” includes—
(1) a government of a foreign country and a foreign political party;

(2) a person outside of the United States, unless it is established that such person is an individual and a citizen of and domiciled within the United States, or that such person is not an individual and is organized under or created by the laws of the United States or of any State or other place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and has its principal place of business within the United States; and

(3) a partnership, association, corporation, organization, or other combination of persons organized under the laws of or having its principal place of business in a foreign country.




If somebody asked me if I was currently a student at my local community college and my answer was "I could easily become one if I chose to do so." That reply would be an admission of the fact that I am not currently a student there. Likewise if I asked an American Jew if he/she was an Israeli citizen and he/she responded that he/she could easily obtain Israeli citizenship if they so choose, that is also an admission that they are not currently an Israeli citizen. Even if such a person chose to obtain Israeli citizenship he/she would not lose their US citizenship unless he/she filed the proper paperwork with the state department to revoke it.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 16:52:38


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Bristol

You're arguing that only US citizens are represented in government? So I guess none of the people who live and work in the US without going through with US citizenship pay taxes?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 16:43:29


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Building a blood in water scent

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
You're arguing that only US citizens are represented in government? So I guess none of the people who live and work in the US without going through with US citizenship pay taxes?


"No taxation without representation" is a catchy rallying cry.

We were once so close to heaven, St. Peter came out and gave us medals; declaring us "The nicest of the damned".

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North Carolina

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
So only US citizens are represented in government? So I guess none of the people who live and work in the US without going through with US citizenship pay taxes?


If I vacation in England or buy products from England I'm paying VAT taxes. Does the British Parliament represent me and my interests just because I paid some taxes to the government?

The criteria to be a registered voter for election or to be a donor to political campaigns isn't particularly difficult to meet.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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Somewhere in south-central England.

BTW Prestor Jon you can reclaim the VAT paid on goods you buy in the UK and export back to the USA.

My brother and his wife are both dual UK/US citizens. They reside in Oregon. I presume they are eligible to vote in US elections and in UK elections by postal voting until their length of residence overseas will be long enough to exclude them.

TBH I think this dual nationality wrangle is a red herring. There simply aren't enough dual nationality citizens in any country to bias elections (my daughter is dual UK/Japanese.) Also, it assumes that it is not possible to be a citizen of two countries and not genuinely vote for the best interests of both.

If the UK and USA, or UK and Japan, went to war on each other, there would be a problem. Otherwise I don't think there is enough of a direct connection between casting a ballot and "the best interests of X" to make any practical difference.

As far as campaign finance goes, if the electorate are stupid enough to allow themselves to be fooled by attack ads and the like then I suppose they will get the kind of government they deserve.

It probably isn't possible to limit the amount of money spent on a campaign. For example in the recent EU Referendum, a limit of (X 100,000 pounds) was set for Leave and Remain campaigns. The Leave side got around it by registering several separate Leave campaigns that each had their own limit, led by separate people -- Farage, Bozza/Gove, etc. This allowed Leave to greatly outspend the official Remain campaign. I don't see a realistic way to address that situation legally.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

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 reds8n wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........

You know what's weird about this?

This scrutiny on political aides like this.... do you recall any other Presidential elections where the media is vetting the campaign staff? The candidates themselves, sure. But their staffers?

The only thing that comes close is maybe Huma Abelin, Hillary right-hand women, as she's the nexus of the email/Foundation ordeal.

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North Carolina

 Kilkrazy wrote:
BTW Prestor Jon you can reclaim the VAT paid on goods you buy in the UK and export back to the USA.

My brother and his wife are both dual UK/US citizens. They reside in Oregon. I presume they are eligible to vote in US elections and in UK elections by postal voting until their length of residence overseas will be long enough to exclude them.

TBH I think this dual nationality wrangle is a red herring. There simply aren't enough dual nationality citizens in any country to bias elections (my daughter is dual UK/Japanese.) Also, it assumes that it is not possible to be a citizen of two countries and not genuinely vote for the best interests of both.

If the UK and USA, or UK and Japan, went to war on each other, there would be a problem. Otherwise I don't think there is enough of a direct connection between casting a ballot and "the best interests of X" to make any practical difference.

As far as campaign finance goes, if the electorate are stupid enough to allow themselves to be fooled by attack ads and the like then I suppose they will get the kind of government they deserve.

It probably isn't possible to limit the amount of money spent on a campaign. For example in the recent EU Referendum, a limit of (X 100,000 pounds) was set for Leave and Remain campaigns. The Leave side got around it by registering several separate Leave campaigns that each had their own limit, led by separate people -- Farage, Bozza/Gove, etc. This allowed Leave to greatly outspend the official Remain campaign. I don't see a realistic way to address that situation legally.


I don't have to pay VAT on my Mierce stuff? Sweet!

If your brother and sister in law have dual citizenship they count as US citizens. The US portion of their dual citizenship is recognized as just as valid as single US citizenship.

Campaign finance laws have never been written or enforced well enough to prevent people from getting around them even before SCotUS gutted ours over the past few years.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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 whembly wrote:
 reds8n wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/26/steve-bannon-florida-registered-vote-donald-trump?CMP=share_btn_tw



Donald Trump’s new presidential campaign chief is registered to vote in a key swing state at an empty house where he does not live, in an apparent breach of election laws.

Stephen Bannon, the chief executive of Trump’s election campaign, has an active voter registration at the house in Miami-Dade County, Florida, which is vacant and due to be demolished to make way for a new development.

“I have emptied the property,” Luis Guevara, the owner of the house, which is in the Coconut Grove section of the city, said in an interview. “Nobody lives there … we are going to make a construction there.” Neighbors said the property had been abandoned for several months


TBF some people have been banging on about voter fraud for quite some time.........

You know what's weird about this?

This scrutiny on political aides like this.... do you recall any other Presidential elections where the media is vetting the campaign staff? The candidates themselves, sure. But their staffers?

The only thing that comes close is maybe Huma Abelin, Hillary right-hand women, as she's the nexus of the email/Foundation ordeal.


I remember when GW was running there was quite a bit of discussion on who he might appoint (as he himself was looked at as a lightweight), but I don't really recall campaign staff being focused on so much. Dean's manager some, just because he was pushing the internet so much. Rove during the second election, because, HamRove. Carville and Begalla some, because of Billy's seemingly unnatural ability to speak to voter's concerns (it's the economy stupid). I guess I did hear a bit about Mike Deaver during Regan's reelection run for similar reasons to Clinton and jelly beans. Yeah, it does come up, but nothing like today. I think it has more to do with so much more media and the necessity of filling up content time than any sort of need to know on the public's part. That and Huma is pretty, so stories with her image will help with the ad clicks.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Heh... good point about the ubiquitous of the internet/social media/cable new/ etc... now.

Gotta fill the contents somehow.

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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 whembly wrote:
Heh... good point about the ubiquitous of the internet/social media/cable new/ etc... now.

Gotta fill the contents somehow.


And that really is one lucky Weiner!

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
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This Is Where the Fish Lives

 whembly wrote:
You know what's weird about this?

This scrutiny on political aides like this.... do you recall any other Presidential elections where the media is vetting the campaign staff? The candidates themselves, sure. But their staffers?
I know it's easy to brush this off as the "media being the media," but there is actually a very good reason this kind of scrutiny is being placed on these people: Trump doesn't have a clue about politics, government, policy, or world affairs and everybody knows it.

Seriously, he's the definition of a "useful idiot" and plenty of Republicans and conservative-leaning people were hoping that, since they couldn't stop him from winning the primaries, he would at least surround himself with mainstream movement conservatives that would mold him into a proper Republican candidate. Only he didn't do that and instead surrounded him self with parade of F-list has-beens with extremely questionable ties and peddlers of chain email conspiracy theories who make a living insulting decent (more or less) Republican figureheads.

There isn't much else to go after Trump on other than the idiotic gak that spews out of his bright orange word hole because he really is just a puppet to these people. Might as well try to cut the strings.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 22:16:14


 d-usa wrote:
"When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
 
   
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Building a blood in water scent

There is so much scrutiny because America somehow has fething Breitbart within a stone's throw of the presidency.

Are we in the End Times?

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United States

Prestor Jon wrote:

If you are a foreign national you can't be a constituent because you are not a US citizen and are not represented by the government of the nation of which you are not a citizen.


What if you have a green card, or a work visa? What makes such a person distinct from one who goes to college in a different State?

Prestor Jon wrote:

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term "foreign national" shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States...


So "foreign principal" and "foreign national" are distinct?

It is pretty vague.

Prestor Jon wrote:
(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.


Temporary worker visas, why aren't they constituents? They are on the path to immigration.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/26 22:40:26


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
 whembly wrote:
You know what's weird about this?

This scrutiny on political aides like this.... do you recall any other Presidential elections where the media is vetting the campaign staff? The candidates themselves, sure. But their staffers?
I know it's easy to brush this off as the "media being the media," but there is actually a very good reason this kind of scrutiny is being placed on these people: Trump doesn't have a clue about politics, government, policy, or world affairs and everybody knows it.

Seriously, he's the definition of a "useful idiot" and plenty of Republicans and conservative-leaning people were hoping that, since they couldn't stop him from winning the primaries, he would at least surround himself with mainstream movement conservatives that would mold him into a proper Republican candidate. Only he didn't do that and instead surrounded him self with parade of F-list has-beens with extremely questionable ties and peddlers of chain email conspiracy theories who make a living insulting decent (more or less) Republican figureheads.

There isn't much else to go after Trump on other than the idiotic gak that spews out of his bright orange word hole because he really is just a puppet to these people. Might as well try to cut the strings.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they shouldn't be scrutinized, just that they haven't been at the level they have this year. Your reasons in addition to the Trump/Russia oligarchy and Clinton/donors illustrates this pretty clearly. I'm just saying it hasn't been as big of a deal in previous elections. Maybe it should have.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
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North Carolina

 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

If you are a foreign national you can't be a constituent because you are not a US citizen and are not represented by the government of the nation of which you are not a citizen.


What if you have a green card, or a work visa? What makes such a person distinct from one who goes to college in a different State?

Prestor Jon wrote:

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term "foreign national" shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States...


So "foreign principal" and "foreign national" are distinct?

It is pretty vague.

Prestor Jon wrote:
(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.


Temporary worker visas, why aren't they constituents? They are on the path to immigration.


If you have a green card the FEC considers you to be a US national.
The federal legal definitions seem to be about as well defined as they ever get. The definitions in Title 8 and Title 22 are used in numerous places so at least the Feds are consistent.

When I was in college I could not/did not vote in any local elections as I was already registered in my home state and votes in the presidential election via absentee ballot from my home state. I'm not familiar with how college students are allowed to vote when they attend out of state schools. If someone has a current DL and official residence in one state I personally don't have a problem with that person only being allowed to vote in that state even if they attend school in another. Lots of people cross state lines to go to work and pay taxes in two states and I think it's best for those people to be limited to one ballot in one state as well. One person = one vote. There's no federal voter registry and I don't think any of the states cross check their voter rolls against the other 49 states frequently if at all so there's little stopping people from voting in multiple states but I personally don't think that's good for the system.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
Made in us
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What's it say when the one issue that you ran on (immigration policy) is an issue that you cannot create a coherent, consistent message about? To me, it means you haven't really thought about that complex issue much.

Clinton, for all her problems and faults, really doesn't have much of a difficulty describing her position on immigration, debt, student loans, health care, taxation, social inequality, you name it. She understands the issues and understands her position. Now, she might change over time, as every human should as they learn more about an issue, but I don't for a second think she hasn't thought about her ideas about any given topic, granted, they may be poll tested and voter approved, but at least she has a clue.

Does anybody, even his supporters, think Trump does?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/27 02:24:15


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Leerstetten, Germany

It helps when you have the official news site of the neo-white-nationalists in your pocket to ensure that your anti-immigration supporters remain loyal.
   
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Here's the thing though, remember the timeline. Trump was Trump. Britbart came along and worshipped at his knees. Trump thinks these guys are cool and hires them. It was sort of a "hey, these young fellers sorta like me and they are giving me good press, I like them." Trump existed before the alt right and the alt right existed before trump. They just found a common megaphone and want to spew out of it. Spew away, loudly. Let everybody hear it, and please take every right wing nut job with you and let us get about our business.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Prestor Jon wrote:

If you have a green card the FEC considers you to be a US national.


And my argument is that standard is too stringent. There are lots of people who live, legally, for long periods of time in the US without ever getting a green card; they should be allowed to vote.

Prestor Jon wrote:

When I was in college I could not/did not vote in any local elections as I was already registered in my home state and votes in the presidential election via absentee ballot from my home state.


I did my undergrad in Minnesota, and voted there in my first semester; mostly because a pretty girl dragged me to the polls. I was already on the rolls for that precinct despite being a resident of Illinois. In effect I was simultaneously a resident of Minnesota and Illinois. This follows as I had already lived in Minnesota for 3 months.

Prestor Jon wrote:

I'm not familiar with how college students are allowed to vote when they attend out of state schools. If someone has a current DL and official residence in one state I personally don't have a problem with that person only being allowed to vote in that state even if they attend school in another. Lots of people cross state lines to go to work and pay taxes in two states and I think it's best for those people to be limited to one ballot in one state as well. One person = one vote. There's no federal voter registry and I don't think any of the states cross check their voter rolls against the other 49 states frequently if at all so there's little stopping people from voting in multiple states but I personally don't think that's good for the system.


There is nothing wrong with a person casting votes in multiple State or local elections, they are still "one vote", though given the low rate of voter turnout I can't imagine that happens very often. Really the only problem arises in Presidential elections, a Federal voter registry would address that to some extent but enforcing it creates problems. Say, for example, I work in the town next to the one I live in and that polling place is the most convenient for me; the staff (mostly volunteers) would have to check my name against the Federal registry, State registry, and local registry in order to determine what votes I was allowed to cast. That's a lot of work for a person who has to do it thousands of times and isn't being paid. And before considering that a person who works in a given locale might be considered a constituent even if they don't live there, as they might be directly impacted by political decisions in that place; especially if they own a business.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 dogma wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:

If you have a green card the FEC considers you to be a US national.


And my argument is that standard is too stringent. There are lots of people who live, legally, for long periods of time in the US without ever getting a green card; they should be allowed to vote.


Out of curiosity what are requirements to vote in USA? You have to be national but what are requirements for that?

For comparison in Finland you need to have certain level of ability in either finish or swedish, 5 years non stop in finland(or 7 years combined with 2 last year there), no serious crime(speeding ticket won't prevent and even serious crimes aren't 100% stop but subject to individual consideration), provable income and verified identity.

Curiously you don't have to be finnish national for EVERY election election. EU election is one where you just need to LIVE in Finland and municipality elections are second.

Just curious so sorry for off-topicking a bit.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
 
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