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Hi all,

What do you think this list would do in a casual 1500 points game (don't have dex with me)

HQ:
Broodlord, +1I, +1S, implant attack, extended carapace, flesh hooks.
Bodyguard 8 genestealers, extended carapace, flesh hooks

EL:
3 warriors, leaping, scytal, rending claws
1 Lictor

TR
8 Hormogaunts
8 Hormogaunts
5 rippers (leaping)
16 spinegaunts
8 termagaunts
6 genestealers, extended carapace

FA
--

HV
Carnifex, barbed strangler, venom canon, +1T, +1W
Carnifex, barbed strangler, venom canon, +1T, +1W

The idea is that the spinegaunts shield the hormies. (permitted where I game, equal size models block equal size models. (So rippers block rippers, Gaunts block Gaunts, stealers block stealers and warriors block warriorsized (raveners,lictors, warriors). MC's blocking MC's) The termies are a distractuion and pointsfiller. the rippers whill be used to surprise the opponent and assault. The 15 wounds will make pretty sure they hold out and maybe even kill some things in return (guardsmen or guardians, maybe even some orcs...)

The warriors with leaping hold the lines stable in the first turn. After that the brood lord should be able to handle the synapse range. The genestealers and the broodlord and retineu should be able to strke in turn 2/3 tops. The lictor should be able to stop a unit shooting at my stealers or fexes and maybe even kill a lone unit.

The carnifexes are responsible for most of the antitank. The vc's and barbed stranglers can make short work of anything except AV14. The extra T and W should make them survivable enough without the carapace.
 

Thats the list and the tactics. Is this list anywhere near competitive, or is it going to die horribly against moest armys?

thanks for the critique

 

I don't think this army can beat a really competitive match-up, it just seems to all over the place without enough stuff to actually kill the enemy.

The Broodlord is too slow, the Leaping Warriors will likely get shot up before they get into combat, the Hormaguants are generally only going to tie up a unit for a turn before they get killed, and you have too few regular stealers (that can fleet) to make it into combat either

So really your best hope is that your Carnifexes kill some vehicles with their shooting and enough random stuff survives into combat to give you the win.

Basically the list just seems way too all over the place.

I don't know exactly what models you have available, but there are certainly some easy tune-ups you can do to have a more effective list:

 

1) Dump the Broodlord. Broodlord's are pretty tough to get any kills with. The unit can't fleet and opponents will move away from the unit and blast it if it pops it's head out from behind cover.

Besides, you've taken a retinue of 8 stealers, which makes it fairly tough to hide completely behind cover to infiltrate within 18" of the enemy. If you replace the Broodlord and retinue with a flying Tyrant I absolutely positively guarantee you'll get more use out of him then the Broodlord.

 

2) If you can screen Hormagaunts with other gaunts then by all means you should have them fully pumped up (+1WS, +1I, +1S). You should be able to guarantee they charge without taking a casualty and if all 16 of 'em hit the same unit you should decimate it.

 

3) Why the Toughness upgrade on the Carnifexes? Although useful, T7 is simply not worth all the points. You can get a bunch more interesting stuff if you leave the upgrade at home. Also, where the heck is the BS upgrade? You absolutely must take that if you're going to take Gunfexes.

 

4) I'm not a fan of using Lictors unless you have a specific goal for them. Either you want them to help get your big stuff on in Escalation or you use their Feeder Tendrils along with Gaunts to overwhelm mediocre enemy units. Do you have a plan for the Lictor? Otherwise they cost just too many points to include. You're better going with more bodies or more stuff that can kill the enemy.

 

5) If you're going to take Warriors then you need to give them Extended Carapace, otherwise they're just going to dissappear as soon as they get within 24" of the enemy. The thing is, you've taken all the ineffective, fragile Synapse instead of any of the effective, durable Synapse.

The best sources of Synapse in a Tyranid army are (in descending order):

A) Flying Tyrants (fast, deadly, tough and cheap for what they do).

B) Zoanthropes. Hard to kill (9 seperate wounds with a 2+/6+ save that can't be insta-killed), and start on the board in Escalation.

C) Walking Tyrant with Tyrant Guard. Impossible to kill good firepower unit. Only the fact that they are slow and start off the table in Escalation drops them below Zoanthropes.

D) Far below those three: Warriors with Scything Talons/Rending Claws and Extended Carapace. Unfortunately this unit is fragile and fairly expensive for how easily it is wiped out.

So in your army I would definitely try to take a flying Tyrant along with some Zoanthropes before you even think about taking a Broodlord or Warriors (that is, if you want to be competitive).

 

6) Rippers per points fall short to Spinegaunts in almost every way (except for operating outside of synapse range). The fact that they aren't a scoring unit when you've already got a pretty small army means you really shouldn't be taking them. Just dump 'em and take another brood of Spinegaunts isntead.

 

Finally,

If your group allows screening, just take an army filled with Spinegaunts to screen giant unit of fully pumped up Hormagaunts. That's a pretty big rules-loophole your friends play with, so you really should use it to your advantage and use a bunch of uber-hormagaunts to win the day.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Thanks for the reply Yakfase, I have taken some of your comments into consideration and adjusted the list accordingly. The thing is I now only have these models and was not planning on already making it a fullfledged 2000 point menace. Still I will take it into consideration.



I like stealers, but I was not convinced they would be worth it in overwhelming numbers. They die too easily IMHO for that, even with fleet (wich is pretty unpredictable in my experience) The infiltrate would be more usefull I thought, because they are only 18' away of the enemy in the first turn, hence turn 2 they and almost al other units should/ could be in charge Range.



see comments above, the 18'away from the enemy looked better than the fleet.... I always play 4"by 4", so the fleet is not that nescesary most of the time...



Forgot to write the upgrade +1BS down. the upgrade is used. the T7 is used to make sure all the S6-weapons are nowhere near as effective against it. To me that looked better then +1Save, isn't this treu nowadays (especially with all the S6 weapons eldar have...)



as Written above he will tie up a shooting unit or something threatening my lines. I thought that was a good plan, but I could be mistaken....



The flying tyrant I wanted to use when making the army into a 2000 point army. In the way it stands now it just looked like to much big beasties and to few little ones to get the job done. I did not want to make a zilla list (wich I once faced with chaos and took to the cleaners for having to few models (I play slaanesh chaos, rending made short work of 2 tyrants with guard, and 2 carnifexes.)

I will however consiider making one now, If I can find a suitable way of representing one with wings without too much work.



I thought them too be actually pretty good because of the leaping strategie. A lot of attacks and wounds could be very bad forr every opponent (meqs too imho) while not being overly priced. But was I so wrong in thinking that? I saw scarabs being used very well as where nurglings in the past.... Are swarms a thing of the past for 40K then?



This is not a big loop hole, as everyone gets to use it. Guard can screen guard heavy weapons, Marines get to cover devestators, mutants (latd) get to cover Marines tooled up) etc. It is just seen as fair play, otherwise any good unit would become redundant. Guard would be useless without chimeras all around. marines without tanks would have too few HW imho, etc. We feel it evens out in the long run. Upgrading everything is a possibility and maybe a nice way to get rid of the termagaunts, but this is not a loophole. We just feel the ruling of GW was a bit too dirty here. (Plus we did not want to spend a fortune reinventing the way some armys work, this would be nescesary in a lot of cases otherwise.

Any more tips and/or tricks??

Updated list looks like this (using models I have):

HQ:
Broodlord, +1I, +1S, implant attack, extended carapace, flesh hooks.
Bodyguard 6 genestealers, extended carapace, flesh hooks

EL:
3 warriors, leaping, scytal, rending claws, extended carapace
1 Lictor

TR
8 Hormogaunts (+1WS, +1S, +1I)
8 Hormogaunts (+1WS, +1S, +1I)
5 rippers (leaping) (what is the best thing these or the 8 termagaunts??)
16 spinegaunts
8 genestealers, extended carapace (maybe scuttlers, wat do you think??)

FA
--

HV
Carnifex, barbed strangler, venom canon, +1T, +1W, +1BS
Carnifex, barbed strangler, venom canon, +1T, +1W, +1BS

thats definately a HUGE loop hole.  Screening troops is already unfluffy, as it represents squads of comrades volunteering to stand out front and catch bullets with thier chests so thier mates can deliver fire power, plus thier good bye lettters to love ones....

As for your list, its bad.  Not enough gaunts, not enough synapse, 1 too many carnifex.

3 Warriors with no save uprade are gonna be dead ther first time any unit with guns can get to it.  That even includes a 10 man las gun squad.

They need to be a unit of at least 5, if not 6, and take a second squad.

Your guant units are too small.  8 gaunts, with just 2 synapse  creatures, well, being as its just 8, they are also gonna get shot up and broke, if they make combat, ther are gonna get shred to bits by any unit who can assault.

Lictor?  May as well just rip that page out of your codex.  They are fragile, weak in assault now, and are generally a waste of points.

Here is a tweaked version, I would field:

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Brood Lord

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HQ

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106

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1

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6

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3

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6

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5

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3

</td> <td width="23" valign="top" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.5pt;">

8

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3+1

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10

</td> <td width="36" valign="top" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 27pt;">

3+

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Adrenal glands, extended carapace, implant attacks, toxin sacks, synapse, Infiltrate, Inhuman strength, rending claws, scything talons

 

</td> </tr> <tr style=""> <td width="126" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 94.3pt;">

Genestealer Brood Retinue

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*HQ*

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188

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8

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6

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0

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5

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4

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1

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6

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2

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10

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4+

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Rending claws, extended carapace, toxin sacs, rending claws

 

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Spinegaunt Brood

 

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Troops

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225

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25

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3

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3

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4

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3

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1

</td> <td width="23" valign="top" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.5pt;">

5

</td> <td width="24" valign="top" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.85pt;">

1

</td> <td width="35" valign="top" style="border-style: solid solid solid none; border-color: windowtext windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 26.2pt;">

5

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6

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Adrenal glands, Toxin sacs, Spine Fists

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Hormagaunt Brood

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Troops

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325

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25

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4

</td> <td width="35" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 26.2pt;">

3

</td> <td width="24" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.65pt;">

4

</td> <td width="23" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.05pt;">

3

</td> <td width="25" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 18.8pt;">

1

</td> <td width="23" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.5pt;">

5

</td> <td width="24" valign="top" style="border-style: none solid solid none; border-color: -moz-use-text-color windowtext windowtext -moz-use-text-color; border-width: medium 1pt 1pt medium; padding: 0pt 5.4pt; width: 17.85pt;">

1+1

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5

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6

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Scythes, adrenal glands, toxin sacs

 

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Warrior Brood

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Elites

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228

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6

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4

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3

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5

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4

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2

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4

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2

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10

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4

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Toxin Sacs, Enhanced Senses, extended carapace, deathspitter, rending claws, synapse

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Warrior Brood

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Elites

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228

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6

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4

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3

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5

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4

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2

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4

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2

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10

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4

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Toxin Sacs, Enhanced Senses, extended carapace, deathspitter, rending claws, synapse

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Screamer Killer (carnifex)

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Heavy

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194

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1

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4

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2

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10

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7

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5

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1

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2+2

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10

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2

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Adrenal Glands, Toxic Miasma, bonded exoskeleton, Extended Carapace, regenerate, reinforced chitin, toxic Miasma, toxin sacs, scythes (2)

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Qoute: I like stealers, but I was not convinced they would be worth it in overwhelming numbers. They die too easily IMHO for that, even with fleet (wich is pretty unpredictable in my experience) The infiltrate would be more usefull I thought, because they are only 18' away of the enemy in the first turn, hence turn 2 they and almost al other units should/ could be in charge Range.

The problem with Bugs is if thier not based on monstrous creatures they have a hard time standing up to shooty armies. Tornadoes give genestealer based lists fits and skimmers are almost unstopable against you unless you have those monstrous creatures loaded out shooty to deal with them. Look at some of the latest battle reports and top finishing armies in GT's and RT's and you will find the majority are monstrous creature based and run 2 HT and 3-5 Fexes. I personally tried the all stealer list and it is actually quite effective against most armies but against marine Tornado/assault cannons of death armies I was owned every time. If you also have to few synapse creatures pods can also wreck your day. They drop in next to your synapse kill it and FOD.

I agree with Yakface here. Your list is all over the place. What are you going for?

Fast assault with leaping Warriors + Hormagaunts? If so, you have too few leaping Warriors and too few hormagaunts. Termagaunts are worthless. Dump them for spinegaunts/hormagaunts, if you want a horde. Leaping rippers? Dump 'em and beef up your hormagaunts or take another brood of gaunts. If you're going to take Warriors, give them extended carapace. Drop the Lictor and take Raveners.

Slow assault? Dump the warriors and hormagaunts entirely, drop the lictor. Take a Tyrant with guards and swarms of spinegaunts.

As it stands, you have two synapse broods. One is too fragile, the other is both fragile and slow. You need to have synapse with your gaunts at all times if you want to do decently, and 3 leaping warriors just doesn't cut it. Two Gunfexes is really too many for a 1500 point game. Drop one, take a Dakkafex, and go from there. Oh, incidentally, 'Screamer-Killer' or any other close-combat pattern Carnifex is ineffective. They do well enough in CC without upgrades, and CC Carnifexes are just wasted points for the 4 turns that it takes them to get into combat. If they do at all.

Posted By Anaxandrides on 01/09/2007 11:03 AM
I agree with Yakface here. Your list is all over the place. What are you going for?

Fast assault with leaping Warriors + Hormagaunts? If so, you have too few leaping Warriors and too few hormagaunts. Termagaunts are worthless. Dump them for spinegaunts/hormagaunts, if you want a horde. Leaping rippers? Dump 'em and beef up your hormagaunts or take another brood of gaunts. If you're going to take Warriors, give them extended carapace. Drop the Lictor and take Raveners.

Slow assault? Dump the warriors and hormagaunts entirely, drop the lictor. Take a Tyrant with guards and swarms of spinegaunts.

As it stands, you have two synapse broods. One is too fragile, the other is both fragile and slow. You need to have synapse with your gaunts at all times if you want to do decently, and 3 leaping warriors just doesn't cut it. Two Gunfexes is really too many for a 1500 point game. Drop one, take a Dakkafex, and go from there. Oh, incidentally, 'Screamer-Killer' or any other close-combat pattern Carnifex is ineffective. They do well enough in CC without upgrades, and CC Carnifexes are just wasted points for the 4 turns that it takes them to get into combat. If they do at all.

Not in my expierences.

I have played hundreds of 40K games, I have played maybe 50 with tyranids the last 2 years, been beaten 1 time by a dark eldar player (I know, flo me later), my carnifexes fullsill both of thier roles PERFECTLY each time.

I use them to divert lots of fire power.  They march toward the enemy.  It forces squads to shoot at them, lots of fire power.  Fire power that is not shooting at other stuff. 

Or they are ignored, and troops move around them.

Eventually they get to things and they smash them, utterly and completely.

If they don't assult the whole game (which has never ever happened), they at least force the other player do modify anything they had planned.  They can't sit still and use move or fire weapons if they are going around it, they can't let it reach them, as if it gets into assault, stuff is dead.  The 10 Str give me a 50/50 chance of pentrating land raiders and monoliths, and a 331/3 chance of destroying it out right, per attack that lands. 

I don't know what world others live in where a CC carnifex is just "wasted points", the base stats make them vulnerable to a host of weapons, the CC carnifex is feniately not wasted points.

Posted By Slave on 01/09/2007 12:15 PM
Not in my expierences.

I have played hundreds of 40K games, I have played maybe 50 with tyranids the last 2 years, been beaten 1 time by a dark eldar player (I know, flo me later), my carnifexes fullsill both of thier roles PERFECTLY each time.

I use them to divert lots of fire power.  They march toward the enemy.  It forces squads to shoot at them, lots of fire power.  Fire power that is not shooting at other stuff. 

Or they are ignored, and troops move around them.

Eventually they get to things and they smash them, utterly and completely.

If they don't assult the whole game (which has never ever happened), they at least force the other player do modify anything they had planned.  They can't sit still and use move or fire weapons if they are going around it, they can't let it reach them, as if it gets into assault, stuff is dead.  The 10 Str give me a 50/50 chance of pentrating land raiders and monoliths, and a 331/3 chance of destroying it out right, per attack that lands. 

I don't know what world others live in where a CC carnifex is just "wasted points", the base stats make them vulnerable to a host of weapons, the CC carnifex is feniately not wasted points.

Your CC Carnifexes have never failed to reach combat in a game? I take it you don't play with Escalation then.

As for diverting your enemy's gameplan, why isn't the rest of your army already doing that?

The thing is, CC Carnifexes aren't worthless, its just that the shooty Carnifex provides a niche in the army that no other unit in the codex can provide, long range High Strengh AT firepower.

By taking CC Carnifexes you help make you army more one-dimensional which allows opponents to utterly dominate you in certain missions/terrains/army matchups.

@Ravurian:  Are you saying you have absolutely no other models? Becuase I'd like to know what alternatives you have available (it obviously makes a difference on what kind of advice to give).

Overall, you still need to get more bodies into your army, preferebly by bulking up those small gaunt units

Do not use Scuttlers on your Stealers unless you are taking several units of Stealers and really attempting to bum-rush your opponents with them.

I will tell you that if you are always playing 1,500 points on a 4x4 table you can take all Scuttling Genestealers in your army (along with a flying Tyrant) and you will wipe most armies off the table by turn 4 (mechanized armies, especially skimmer armies may give you a hard time, but that's what the Gunfexes are for!).

 

 

at the moment I have no alternatives. I wanted to expand in the future with a flying tyrant extra warriors and increase sizes of the units (2 x 12 hormies and 2* 16 spinegaunts) and maybe some zoanthropes. (although I hear good things about raveners nowadays. )

When I started I wanted to make a list based on No MC except 2 Gunfexes. These serve a AT and deterent. They look menacing and therefore the opponent ignores other things. That makes it easier for the waariors and stealers to arrive in combat...)

Apparently I am better of with a few big units of gaunts then several small units. So how about this list:
(Remember, still no other models, but The most effective list with what is provided...)

that does however leave me with points to spare and the only things I have modelwise for filler are the 5 rippers and the 8 termagaunts plus 10 or so sporemines of varying type (battle for macragge set). (I got all this from a battleforce, macraggeset and an extra carbnifex plus the broodlord)

I will rephrase the question, Can this be used in a relatively effective army of 1500 points or should I just start playing 1250 or even 1000 (by loosing a gunfex) for now at least...

Definately look into getting a Flying Tyrant...it is a much better HQ choice than the Broodlord who is super slow, although I suppose they way you can screen troops, he is not as bad as he would be playing by the book.

Any decent player is going to shoot at what is threatening him most, so counting on your Gunfexes to be a deterrent is probably not going to work. At best, they will be drawing the fire of Lascannons and Missile launchers.

I would suggest that you not play 1500pts if you want to win. They way you have your stuff equipped is far from efficient...for example, why are you putting EC on your genestealers if they can be screened by the gaunts. Also, If you want to upgrade your gunfex, give him +1W instead of +1T. Anyting that can hurt T6 with any effectiveness shouldn't have a problem with T7.
You may want to think about playing another Gunfex or 3 Zoanthropes as skimmers (especially a Necron Monolith) will give you trouble.

As far as stealer broods go, I take 3-4 broods of 6 each...increasing their survivability by giving your opponent more stuff to shoot at.

The T7 upgrade on a GunFex is definitely worth it IMHO. Especially against all the new Eldar armies with their S6 weapons, and against Marine Plasma rapid-fire.

Let's see....for the cost of upgrading two fexes to T7, you could take: a) 1 Ravener, or b) 8 Spinegaunts, or c) 2 Genestealers w ExCarapace. I'll take the T7 on two Gunfexes instead please!

Mutiple T7 W5 fexes can be a pain to anyone though, especially in Take & Hold or Loot missions.

Why do they do that? It makes more sense to kill the little bugs with shooting, and the big bugs with a combo of some shooting, completed by HTH.