Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

After the long discussion in the Tactics section I've changed my 1500 list a bit. I'm going for a pure Mech army with cc orientated troops and shooty tanks. How does this list look as a tournament viable tale-all-comers list ?

===HQ===
Farseer @175pts w/ bike, doom, fortune, SS, runes of warding.

===ELITE===
10 Banshees @187pts: Exarch w/ Executioner, War Shout.
---Serpent @160pts: t-l scatter laser, SS, star engines, vectored engines.
6 Harlies @162pts: kisses, shadowseer.
6 Scorps @128pts: Exarch w/ claw, stalker.

===TROOPS===
3 Jetbikes @124pts: shurican. Warlock w/ speer.
3 Jetbikes @124pts: shurican. Warlock w/ speer.

===HS===
Falcon @220pts: t-l scatter laser, shurican, holo, SS, vectored, star.
Falcon @220pts: t-l scatter laser, shurican, holo, SS, vectored, star.

How does it look ? Do I have enough firepower and cc power ? Are any of the units over-equipped ? I
I anyone can see a good way to get an Autarch in there I'd be glad, +1 would really help this list in escalation. The Autarch doesn't really need to be on a bike, I could just take him for the +1. It would be nice though if he could be on a bike, with lance and/or fusion gun.

Thanks

-The biketarch is about 140 points, so probably not able to sqeeze one in at 1500.
-I've experimented with both scatterlasers and shuriken cannons on wave serpents, and found that shuriken cannons are not noticably less effective.
-If you need to save a few points, star engines are less vital on a wave serpent than on falcons, since the serpent has to hang back out of powerfist-assault range and can't get up in the opponent's face the way that falcons can.

Just trimming those few points won't net enough to add even a basic autarch, though. But maybe those changes plus dropping the banshee exarch might free up enough to get a basic autarch with power weapon to ride in the wave serpent?

-Oh, and one apparent typo--falcon scatterlasers aren't twinlinked.

I would go with cannons on those falcons.  You save some pts and those falcons will be fighting up close and personal.  I would probably lose warshout  on that Banshee Exarch.  You might need some more anti-tank, but if you are clever side and rear armor shots will compensate for the lack of snakes on a plane.

The reason I went with scatter lasers is to compensate for the fairly low anti-tank, however shuricans are also S6. So I guess it comes to to experience whether you're close enough to use cannons.
Flavius, thats a good idea about replacing the HN Exarch w/ an Autarch. How does this look:

===HQ===
Autarch @80pts: pw.
Farseer @160pts: bike, doom, fortune, SS.

===ELITE===
9 Banshees @144pts: -.
---Serpent @145pts: t-l shurican, SS, star engines, vectored engines.
6 Harlies @162pts: kisses, shadowseer.
6 Scorps @128pts: Exarch w/ claw, stalker.

===TROOPS===
3 Jetbikes @124pts: shurican. Warlock w/ speer.
3 Jetbikes @124pts: shurican. Warlock w/ speer.

===HS===
Falcon @210pts: scatter laser, holo, SS, vectored, star.
Falcon @220pts: scatter laser, shurican, holo, SS, vectored, star.

The Autarch w/ pw is better than a HB exarch w/ mirrorswords. Autarch also has 5 attacks on the charge, but with WS6 and a 4+ inv save.
This list is even better.
Only thing annoying me are the different falcons.

I say go with this. Should be quite strong at 1500. Different is good.

That's a good point about the PW autarch. I'm gonna take a close look at maybe replacing my biketarch with one of these guys.

One tweak I'd suggest--if you have 2 points, give the autarch a banshee mask so that when he charges with them, he also attacks at I10. Otherwise, because he's an IC, the opponent just has to pull the model he's in btb with at the I10 step of the assault, and he loses all the attacks he would have had at I6.

You could move the shurican to the wave serpent to keep your falcons the same, or buy the harlies one fusion gun for a slight boost against heavy tanks.

1500 Points is so hard to build a balanced army. I feel your pain in tourneys. I've did play in a 1500 point tourney with my Eldar in December and got a bad matchup in my 2nd game. Necrons w/ two Monoliths. I simply got outmanuevered all game and could not really get stuck in to kill enough in assault for phase out. I didn't have nearly enough weapons to get the Monoliths to go away either. In all the games, Striking Scorpions just didn't do much for me at all. Without Haywire and/or S8 Powerfist and no Fleet, they just couldn't do any job as good as any other dedicated unit. I don't know the points offhand, but I'd look at changing out the Scorps, maybe for Hawks.

I also don't see how your list will handle Mech Tau very well. I suppose this is where the bikes will have to go in for tank hunting. But, one casualty, and they make a LD8 Morale Test.

It looks like you want the Falcons transporting your assault elements. If you are worried about points, simply make both Falcons double Shuriken Cannons. The tanks are going to be close to the enemy and likely able to get side armor shots. With Star Engines, you probably won't be shooting first turn anyways. In my experience, my Falcons aren't shooting half the game anyways.

The area that I really can't quite figure out is how the list would perform with Escalation. Too many variables. The Autarch seems mandatory so you don't spend most of the game trying to foot slog from cover to cover.

Let us know how the list fares.

Yep, I have exactly enough to give the Autarch a Banshee Mask.
Update: Autarch @83pts: pw, mask.
I was also thinking of giving the Autarch a Fusion Gun. That would give me a nice boost in anti-tank firepower.

Yeah, the cannon/laser debate is one that I don't think can be solved with theoryhammer. Experience will tell if I need the extra range or not.

I play Mech Tau so I know what its like, it should be an interesting match-up. It depends entirely on what the Tau list looks like. Crisis heavy will be difficult, anything else easy.

I'm itching to play against your list, I honestly don't know who'd have the upper hand. I run

eldrad
10 harlequins kisses and seer
starcannon serpent v.engines, spiritstones with 6 fire dragons
2 x 3 jetbikes shuricannon with spearlok & destructor
2 wraithlords starcannon & brightlance
fire prism with shuricannon, v.engines & spirit stones

my list is heavily anti-marine, a little slower and no autarch to support escalation. anyhow my only comment is that I'm not a huge fan of scorpions, i like them but I think you are better served with fire dragons. the shuricannon vs scatter laser debate, don't worry they both suck. in fact drop the other shuricannon on the falcon and give both jetbike warlocks destructor... str5 ap4 flame template is great, I'd just dump the scorpions.

Yeah, it would be fun to play against your list.

I also think that scorps aren't that great, harlies are better at practically everything. So I've decided to replace them with a second harly unit.
How does this look:

===HQ===
Farseer @110pts: bike, doom.
Autarch @93pts: power weapon, fusion gun, mask.

===ELITE===
5 Harlies, Shadowseer @162pts: kiss.
5 Harlies, Shadowseer @162pts: kiss.
10 Banshees @160pts: -.
Wave Serpent @145pts: t-l shurican, SS, SE, VE.

===TROOPS===
3 Jetbikes, Warlock @124pts: shurican, warlock w/ speer.
3 Jetbikes, Warlock @124pts: shurican, warlock w/ speer.

===HS===
Falcon @210pts: scatter laser, HF, SS, SE, VE.
Falcon @210pts: scatter laser, HF, SS, SE, VE.

I'm still not sold on the scatter lasers, needs more testing.

Wouldnt a spear on your farseer be way much more worth it than the mask on your autarch? BS5 lascannon versus vehicles just seems like well spent points.

Yeah, I'm also not sure there. The problem is that without the mask I might find my Autarch without anything it hit.
However a BS5 lascannon is very nice.

I just noticed something... no fortune? Take fortune before doom. Harlequins need fortune badly. You might consider taking 1 unit of 10 harlequins.. that saves you 30pts and you will only need one fortune cast on them per turn. But if you did that your falcons couldn't star engine the harlies across the board... then again.. if you plan to star engine them across the board you don't need fortune. Ok its a stylistic difference between us. Well you might... smaller units of harlequins don't generally kill the entire squad meaning you'll lose maybe a model per combat.. I do agree give the farseer a singing spear, take it from a spearlok if you need to.

this may seem like a dumb question but why a shadow seer. I think im right in saying the harlies are riding in the falcons. In that case by the time you drop off your harlies your enemy will easily be in ramge to neagte VOT. For me a troupe leader with pweapon gives you a littler extra punch.

If you want to charge anything in cover (and I'd say about 90% of the time, you do) then you need the shadowseer.

The shadowseer also protects your harlequins from the bulk of enemy shooting if they get caught in the open, because you went in on a flank (you did go on a flank, right?) and the majority of enemy shooting will be out of VOT range.

The lack of fortune is annoying, but if you assault cleverly you shouldn't ever be in the open.

Its 7AM and I haven't had my coffee yet so this will be brief. (and probably incomplete)

I think at 1500 running both a farseer and an autarch is a mistake. Right now, they are both expensive models that have very little outcome on the game. Your better off cutting one and fully fleshing out the other. (most people opt for the autarch, but both are solid options and their is no correct choice here - just play style/personal preferences)

I think I would have stayed with the scorpions over a second harlie squad. Your squads have 0 staying power and the attrition rates will be high. Additionally, if you do accidentally wipe the squad out in 1 round, your almost guarenteed to be cut apart by basic weapons fire.

2 shuriken cannons cost the same as 1 scatter laser on falcons.

Are you actually using the star engines? I have never found I needed to actually move 36" (things just aren't that far apart)

of course i forgot that harlies have to take a SS to get plasma greandes. Ive found that i need to get to at least 1850 before my mech eldar really hurt. Also as for the HQs believe it or not i run two farseers on bikes. They guide the falcons and two dooms mean my harlies kill whateverthey have to kill.

"Very little outcome on the game" ? What makes you say that ? The Farseer's Doom is vital for the banshees otherwise they don't have a chance. Without Doom you cannot make sure the banshees win the cc in your opponent's phase, and if you can't do that then the banshees are toast.
The Autarch is equally important. He adds the punch the banshees need in cc, adds a nice anti-tank punch and, most importantly, saves my ass in escalation. I think both are vital to the list.

I used to agree about the attrition part, but not anymore. The only time it would be a problem is if I get counter-assaulted. Apart form that it isn't a problem to clear the Kill Zone, pile in and then wipe the unit out. It gets trickier against really large squads which you cannot defeat in 2 CC turns, but don't forget Hit And Run. Or I just assault the large unit with two units.
Granted its all a bit dicey, but all this theoryhammer isn't going to answer that question. I need to play a few games and see if I really am lacking in staying power. If so I'll try out my first list with the scorps and fortune.

Yes I do use Star Engines, a lot. the 36" move means I can get anywhere I want. Often the 24" move wouldn't be enough. Its especially good as you can get behind a terrain piece somewhere out of LOS and then assault through the terrain. Many people don't see that coming.

Ok lets break it down then.

Autarch (93 pts) - Two things. One, if you want to use an autarch like an (expensive) exarch then fine. But the Banshees don't need the help. 10 charging banshees kill 5 (of 6) MEQs. Chew through any more and the squad gets destroyed by fire, kill any less and his 5 charge attacks are wasted. If the squad has to fight through more than 6 guys (usually 8, but occasionally 10) then the autarch only adds one kill, so he isn't going to adds one make a real difference in the outcome of the CC.  As if the opposing squad is 8, the banshees wipe them out even without the autarch, and against 10 they can't destroy the squad in 2 rounds even with him.  Second, why does he have a fusion gun? Your wave Serpent doesn't have time to drop him off anywhere, (they have to get the banshees to their target) and he will never get to shoot it at a tank before assaulting, so what is the point?

Farseer (110 pts) - If I asked you if it would be worth if for banshees to be able to re-roll to wound rolls for 110 pts, would you tell me it was worth it? People take doom because a large number of their squads can use it, (avengers, scorps, pathfinders, etc) your only going to use it to pump up the banshees. Sure you will cast for the harlies once in a while, (although they prefer guide) and your vehicles can sometimes use it with monsterous critters, but the real reason your taking it is for the banshees. The problem with this is the banshees don't actually need doom, they're a fully functional squad capable of taking down squads of up to 8 men in 2 rounds. (and anything larger should be whittled down to a more manageable number with shooting)

So heres the rub of it, you have 2 expensive HQ choices tied up in trying to make a squad of banshees dangerous, when the squad is already capable of holding its own. So yes, I do feel your HQ choices have very little effect on the game.

For 200 points, you can have a fortune, doom, guide farseer that runs around throwing BS 5 lascannons and turns combats into hideously lopsided massacres, or you could take a fully fleshed out autarch who hunts battletanks in his spare time when hes not busy massacing squads or making sure your armies arrive on time. (he also enjoys fine dining and long walks on the beach) Personally I think the autarch is the correct option here, your list doesn't have the right squads to make great use of a farseer, and it leaves you ~60 more points to play with.

Edit: How much terrain do you play with? 36" between terrain pieces makes me cringe. (And want to play IW)

Ouch, that makes way too much sense.

Hummm, I'll have to give this some thought and a lot of play-testing.

Thanks for explaining that

We do play with the normal 25% terrain, however I've just found that with a 36" move I can get into the perfect assault position with one move. With 24" it wasn't always possible to get to where I wanted to be in one go.