Sons of Fenris

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**Delephont**

I just finished reading the book Sons of Fenris, and was horrified by some of the blatant departure from "standard" GW WH40K Fluff.....a few examples:

One of the Space Wolf Blood Claws dies from a plasma wound to this leg and hand ( apparently from blood loss!! )...and I thought Space Marine physiology mean't that seriosu wounds blood clot almost immediately!

Dark Angels get absolutely trounced by the Space Wolves....ok, some Space WOlf lovers might agree with this, but c'mon..surely a Chapter as "deadly" and disciplined as the Dark Angels would be at least a match!

Dark Angel Captain ( also part of the elite Death Wing ) gets knocked unconcious by Ragnar Blackmane when he goes "berserk".....so, ermm, whats so special about the Death Wing?

I've saved the best till last......One of the Wolf Blade is described as "fat" although he's still fit?!?! And not only that, the writer insinuates that the fat Space Wolf may be in love with his charge from house Belisarius?!?

This book is the biggest pile of poo I've yet to read from GW, and I'm surprised it got through the editing room.......

**Celtic Strike**

Well Ragnar Blackmane is the wolf lord, capible of knocking out anyone he wants to. For 250 points he better be able to take down a Deathwing Captain. Also, they're based off of Vikings who were notorious for fighting like deamons even with a pot belly. So probably he [the Author] was continuing the Vik myth.

Gay love, nothing wrong with that. It's cold on their planet.

Also, if want to see a marine die like a chump read 'Firewarrior' The Tau hero tricks a Raven Guard Captain and kills him and four marines with a grenade. Then shoots and kills a Ultramarine Libraian in one shot before getting four MORE marines to kill each other with their own cross fire.

**Delephont**

Dude....LOL....sorry to dissappoint you, it wasn't gay love! The Space Wolf is protecting a WOMAN from house Belisarius......

I just get wound up when writers drop the sponge just to progress a tatty story line! Either Space Marines are deaths angels incarnate or they ain't, full stop! If GW and their associated writers want to have a few easy kills, well, sorry, but thats what the IG were designed for, right? So why do they continuously confuse people by spouting about ultimate warriors and then having them roll over like an Iraqi insurgent ( no offence to anybody from Iraq, but your insurgents are just not doing it!! )

**millest**

actully theres nothing to say a marine cant be fat, its all to do with how the marines body takes his implants and his metabolism reacts to them. hes not the first "fat" marine to appear in the fluff!

also theres nothing to say that marines cant have feelings either, just because most of the time GW protrays them as monastic killing machines doesnt mean that they are all like that, or in fact that any of them are like that! this is just the way GW portrays them, marines are able to experience the full range of emotions just to a lesser or greater extent to normal people! reference the horus heresy - pride etc all played a part in that little argument. why cant a marine feel love? after all a marine is just a 12 year old boy filled up with new gunk and given a gun!

reference the dark angel been taken down by the bezerker space wolf, i dont care how discaplined a fighter someone is if they are attacked by some one in a rage or bezerk as the discription is then 99 time out of 100 they will loose. bezerkers dont follow normal rules or styles of fighting and will do the most unexpected things whilst fighting - as an example and in keeping with the nordic theme look at vikings and the viking warrior that kept the entire english army at bay on a bridge near york for nearly a day as he was in a bezerk rage - only been defeated after some clear english so and so swam under the bridfge and stabbed him from there!
also he was a deathwing captain but he was still only wearing power armour and if i remember rightly he didnt have his helmet on and in my book that just asks for a kicking!

and before you moan im much more of a DA fan then i am a SW fan

millest

**Delephont**

Posted By millest on 01/22/2007 5:35 AM
actully theres nothing to say a marine cant be fat, its all to do with how the marines body takes his implants and his metabolism reacts to them. hes not the first "fat" marine to appear in the fluff!

also theres nothing to say that marines cant have feelings either, just because most of the time GW protrays them as monastic killing machines doesnt mean that they are all like that, or in fact that any of them are like that! this is just the way GW portrays them, marines are able to experience the full range of emotions just to a lesser or greater extent to normal people! reference the horus heresy - pride etc all played a part in that little argument. why cant a marine feel love? after all a marine is just a 12 year old boy filled up with new gunk and given a gun!

reference the dark angel been taken down by the bezerker space wolf, i dont care how discaplined a fighter someone is if they are attacked by some one in a rage or bezerk as the discription is then 99 time out of 100 they will loose. bezerkers dont follow normal rules or styles of fighting and will do the most unexpected things whilst fighting - as an example and in keeping with the nordic theme look at vikings and the viking warrior that kept the entire english army at bay on a bridge near york for nearly a day as he was in a bezerk rage - only been defeated after some clear english so and so swam under the bridfge and stabbed him from there!
also he was a deathwing captain but he was still only wearing power armour and if i remember rightly he didnt have his helmet on and in my book that just asks for a kicking!

and before you moan im much more of a DA fan then i am a SW fan
millest

I wouldn't dream of moaning, these are all fair points, however....if I may, Fat is never a good thing in anyones case, let alone a Space Marine...so accepting a Fat Space Marine is like saying is ok to be over-wieght in the SAS or Navy SEALs or SBS? I don't think so....in my opinion the writer was trying to drum up a "Four Musketeers" like relationship between the Wolves with Ragnar being clearly D'artagnion......cheap, in my opinion.

As for love...well yes, why not, a battle brother can love another battle brother like a brother ( I hasten to add ) but to feel longing for a female is ridiculous, after all the indoctrination and the total sublimation of the what that 12 year old boy was / could be ( i.e a normal man ) I just don't buy it!

Having been trained in several forms of combat, I disagree that a berserker will always win against a discplined fighter. The disciplined mind can see opneings and can take advantage of various aspects of combat that a berserker would never see ( like getting stabbed from under a bridge!! )...the Dark Angel should have known the berserk rage Space Wolves are given to having and should have factored that into his combat scenario.....especially a Death Wing Captian....

**millest**

lol, what you say is true to some respect, yes there is an aspect of three muskateers to the story which results in the idea of a fat marine. but in it is also possible, im sure somewhere further back in the space wolves novels it mentions another fat marine! also on a slight side note, sas soldiers very rarely look skinny, in fact in some of the footage from the falklands and the iraqi war (the proper 1st one) some of them look downright porky! lol

on a side note to the fit versus fat comment - i am fat, no two ways about that, however i am fit enough to join the TA, which may not sound a lot but its fitter then most of my "slim" friends. so despite what everyone says you can be fit AND fat at the same time!

emotions are more prevelant in space wolves i feel as they are closer to thier human roots and less aloof then other chapters so i feel love and emtion would be there, most of the indoctrine mentioned in the SW novels is knowledge rather then the emotional and indoctination of other chapters!

as for the bezerker thing, consider this:
dark angels - rigid, secrative and set in their ways, not to mention they are very "unimaginative" in their combat doctarine.
space wolf - flexible doctrine, multiple and adaptive combat style. very fluid with a disciplined side
space wolf body guard - as normal space wolf but with the added experince of additional earth discaplines and techniques learnt on earth
bezerker swbg - as swbg but with an attitude that results in all abandonment of self presevation
in my opinion this flexible multiple technique style coupled with the bezerker and instictive manner would prevail every time, the bezerker viking on the bridge would no doubt have survived if he had had more experience in fighting the english or knew other techniques etc mind you iirc he did slay like 100+ men before been brought down, so for a bezerker SW to bring down 3-4 DA isnt mucch of a feat.

other then that though the books are pretty good i like the fact that they show marines other then something as sexless, gun toting, religious freaks
millest

**Abadabadoobaddon**

I think they made a marine have the hots for a girl for the same reason that they made a fat marine - so that the average reader would more readily identify them.

**Delephont**

Good point....but again, that is my point! We are supposed to identify with like of IG, not Space Marines...they're super human ( not like Superman with his tights under his pants!! whats that all about anyway? man can't get no slacks? ).....

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Because fatties like to think they're space marines?

**beef**

He was fat due to a genetic flaw. Hence he was sent to the wolfblades. Plus ragnar is a special charactor who could beat upa DA captain quite easily. Especially in game terms.

**WarsmithDave**

I haven't read Sons of Fenris yet but have read all the previous space wolf novels. I can't speak for its content, but I will defend Haegre as he was a great character when introduced in Wolfblade. That novel describes how it wasn't until after he had been transformed into a marine that his slower metabolism revealed itself. Marines are just enhanced humans and are probably very prone to not completely accepting their new bodies particularly so in the 41st millenium where so little is known of biology or rather is understood. Its not only GW that promote this view of marines as perfect death angels but the imperium itself. They're figures of fear and awe. It would be waste of training, progenoid organs and equipment to just get rid of a marine who's physic may be an aberation, but is certainly no mutation or major flaw. I think it adds a little more flavour to the wolves themselves, after all if they have wulfen marked marines then whats one bot belly? The pub scene from Wolfblade is probably my favorite in the entire book.

**Delephont**

Whoooaaa.....So the Emperor of Mankind develops a geno-type that is impervious to poison, can regenerate at an amazing rate, has an increased set of senses to the point of bieng almost supernatural, superhuman reflexes and strength......but he can't do away with a pot belly??

C'mon, its writers license is what it is. If we want a girly cringing character, who despite the best efforts of the Imperium to condition its mind to that of a killing machine, still freezes in battle, and get a boner when a girl walks past ( at least he's not gay! ) then we'd all look to Spiderman for our fluff fix.....We WANT Marines...Adeptus Astartes...Angels of Death!!!

For the EMPORER!!!

**Lost_Boys**

They are SW, they are NOT your average Marines are they? Like somebody said if they can have Wulfen running around from the days when the emporer walked amongst them throwing sticks for them then whats a fat marine? Its believable fluff.

**Gareth_Hreidmar**

Also it seems to me that Genetic Deviancy seems to be a bit more rampant/accepted in the space wolves (i.e. extended canines, Wulfen, and pot bellies

).

**WarsmithDave**

You really have to read Wolfblade to get Haegre and Torin. My fav of the series and the bar scene was also my fav of the book. SWs have always seemed to me potentially the most human of marines. They quarel with each other, have a feud with a loyal chapter, are one of the least religious chapters, have a sense of humour and refuse to toe the codex line.

Delaphont, its been 10 thousand years since the emperor had anything to do with gene seed. Considering that you grow new seed from old seed and the sophistication of the mechanicus flaws would happen all the time. Just look at the chapters of the 13th and 21st foundings. And who is to say that what the wolfblade feels for his charge is sexual attraction?

The stuff about being angels of death is really mostly imperium propaganda. After the heresy they needed a major PR boost. Its interesting that Wolfblade makes the point that most Terrans still fear and resent marines. And considering the contempt that most marines have for humans this is just so funny. Would BL books be better if every marine acted and re-acted the same way? Not in MHO. The wolf books have always been very different to any other marines in BL. Its nice that we have the option of reading something that is different and creative. The first wolf book was the first amrine novel I ever read and found it a refreshing change from the dex/rule fluff that can be a bit boring. Guilliman has always seemed a lot like a pope to men running around with hs bible excommunicating anyone who disagrees with him.

**beef**

RE read all the SW novels. It explains everything. Not all SM are like monks with guns (DA) Some have feelings read old Sallies fluff. It not creative licence its original fluff.

**GuyWithHorns**

There is more muscle than fat in that body! he can swing a Thunder Hammer one handed without any difficulty!

**Death By Monkeys**

Aghhh...the threadromancy! My eyes!!

**The Gorgull**

Look at the orgres from the OK army, they are hugely fat, yet they can go for miles and miles and kill kill kill for days. I feel like this is applicable here.

**Arran235**

You will not insult the mighty Heagr! (may his soul rest in peace) and of coure the SW can beat the DA, TRaitors all of 'em!

**Arctik_Firangi**

The fluff is there. Read the codex! SW Great Companies lark about, drink all day and then sprint off through the woods to rip giant wolves in half with their bare hands. With all the excessive hair and tooth growth, more body fat seems perfectly reasonable given the climate they're used to.

Dark angels used to be black, are dark green, are sometimes white and sometimes still black, and like to try 'all bike' or 'all terminator' armies - also for a lark. They just have different milatary obsessions.

**themandudeperson**

Also, another aspect many forget about someone going berserk is that their mind doesn't catch what's happening to their body. There's all sorts of cases where Vikings and sometimes the earlier Scottish clansmen would be grieviously injured but would still follow through with their attack and then collapse.. Imagine running an 8 ft tall uberly pissed bio-engineered super soldier through with a polearm of some sort, only to see him force himself down the shaft so that he can get close enough to cut you in two before dying..

**yourdaddy**

Delephont wrote:
I just finished reading the book Sons of Fenris, and was horrified by some of the blatant departure from "standard" GW WH40K Fluff.....a few examples:

One of the Space Wolf Blood Claws dies from a plasma wound to this leg and hand ( apparently from blood loss!! )...and I thought Space Marine physiology mean't that seriosu wounds blood clot almost immediately!

Dark Angels get absolutely trounced by the Space Wolves....ok, some Space WOlf lovers might agree with this, but c'mon..surely a Chapter as "deadly" and disciplined as the Dark Angels would be at least a match!

Dark Angel Captain ( also part of the elite Death Wing ) gets knocked unconcious by Ragnar Blackmane when he goes "berserk".....so, ermm, whats so special about the Death Wing?

I've saved the best till last......One of the Wolf Blade is described as "fat" although he's still fit?!?! And not only that, the writer insinuates that the fat Space Wolf may be in love with his charge from house Belisarius?!?

This book is the biggest pile of poo I've yet to read from GW, and I'm surprised it got through the editing room.......

wolf blades are outcasts, he's 'fat' because something was wrong with his gene seed. and nobody really won, it was a draw. and sons of fenris is the best GW book ive read thus far. plus ragnar is a Wolf lord before he was outcasted. so he could easly match a stupid dark angle

**beef**

Actually Ragnar was just a blood claw when he was sent to the wolfblades. So thats a new recruit SW beating up a DA captain. Hence why some people thought it was far fetched. But they forget Ragnar was always marked for greatness.

**Lemartes**

Also it seems to me that Genetic Deviancy seems to be a bit more rampant/accepted in the space wolves

Don't forget the Gallegher hair style bald on top fluffy on the sides. I still love the old space wolf scouts who look bowl legged and geriatiric.

**bryantsbears**

You can be fit and have a beer belly.

**Delephont**

You guys actually dug this post up to discuss? Damn you must be bored.

I don't even play Dark Angels anymore

Death Guard and Chaos all the way!