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Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





This thread makes me wonder if you guys are serious or deliberately trolling each other.

There are only two valid answers to the "what will happen if points are binned" hypothetical:

- "IMHO there will be outrage so epic, that Nothingham will burn to the ground"

- "IMHO nothing spectacular will happen. There will be some tears, but community will prevail."

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in this thread warrants invoking a genocide, even a hypothetical one. Anyone who doesn't see that should seriously stop for a moment and consider an eventuality, that they are over invested in a game of toy soldiers.
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Toofast wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Likewise, I think the *actual* topic was resolved on like page 3 before people decided to break out their "I hate PL" personalities.


I don't specifically hate PL just for existing, I hate that it's created people who will argue that feet are just as precise as millimeters because they can't count past 10 without taking their shoes off. It's like a valet key for an exotic car. Does it have a reason for existing? Yes! Should it be the default when you want to get in the car and have a good time driving it? No because that wasn't its purpose despite the fact that someone who doesn't know how to drive and is scared of fast cars might prefer to use it all the time.


So, you have no argument aside from attempting to insult the intelligence of people?

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






nou wrote:
This thread makes me wonder if you guys are serious or deliberately trolling each other.

There are only two valid answers to the "what will happen if points are binned" hypothetical:

- "IMHO there will be outrage so epic, that Nothingham will burn to the ground"

- "IMHO nothing spectacular will happen. There will be some tears, but community will prevail."

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in this thread warrants invoking a genocide, even a hypothetical one. Anyone who doesn't see that should seriously stop for a moment and consider an eventuality, that they are over invested in a game of toy soldiers.

I am on record in this thread stating that both PL and points are fine, and haven't advocated for the removal of either.

I have merely pointed out that the very thread started with the premise of removing points. That's the entire impetus behind my being here. This thread has been ridiculous for days.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





 Insectum7 wrote:
nou wrote:
This thread makes me wonder if you guys are serious or deliberately trolling each other.

There are only two valid answers to the "what will happen if points are binned" hypothetical:

- "IMHO there will be outrage so epic, that Nothingham will burn to the ground"

- "IMHO nothing spectacular will happen. There will be some tears, but community will prevail."

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in this thread warrants invoking a genocide, even a hypothetical one. Anyone who doesn't see that should seriously stop for a moment and consider an eventuality, that they are over invested in a game of toy soldiers.

I am on record in this thread stating that both PL and points are fine, and haven't advocated for the removal of either.

I have merely pointed out that the very thread started with the premise of removing points. That's the entire impetus behind my being here. This thread has been ridiculous for days.


Yes - an unendorsed hypothetical "what if" scenario to discuss the possible state of the community after such change. There is no sentiment in the OP, no "pts should go" or "pts should stay". There is only "IMHO no armageddon will happen and people will get over it eventually" answer by OP. I don't know how you imagine starting a "what if GW goes insane" thread without mentioning what kind of insanity you have in mind.

If you want to build a proper genocide analogy it would not be "should we kill all the XYZ people" but instead "do you think, that killing XYZ people would result in WW III or would no one bat an eye", which is a perfectly valid question given current political climate in the world. Does this framing endorses genocide? Of course not - it does however acknowledge, that the world is a gakky place and sometimes people get hurt for no reason at all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 18:59:42


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Toofast wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Likewise, I think the *actual* topic was resolved on like page 3 before people decided to break out their "I hate PL" personalities.


I don't specifically hate PL just for existing, I hate that it's created people who will argue that feet are just as precise as millimeters because they can't count past 10 without taking their shoes off.
No-one says they're "just as precise", what people ARE saying is that they are precise *enough* for what they want.

You don't need to measure how tall the Burj Khalifa is in millimetres, just like how you don't need to measure how old you are in seconds.

Also, way to go by still insulting PL users. You're doing a great job keeping that trend going.

Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!
Come on, just mention the Holocaust a few more times. You brought it up, after all.
You're the one choosing to dwell on it. Like instead of having a counter argument, it's just this now.
In other words, "don't hold me responsible for bringing this up and making a gakky comparison between toy soldiers and the Holocaust, please stop calling me out, it's your fault if you do". There isn't a counter-argument needed, because it's a terrible argument in the first place.

No, sorry bud. You made your bed. Walk your awful analogy back, or keep having folks call you out. It's called taking responsibility.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






nou wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nou wrote:
This thread makes me wonder if you guys are serious or deliberately trolling each other.

There are only two valid answers to the "what will happen if points are binned" hypothetical:

- "IMHO there will be outrage so epic, that Nothingham will burn to the ground"

- "IMHO nothing spectacular will happen. There will be some tears, but community will prevail."

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in this thread warrants invoking a genocide, even a hypothetical one. Anyone who doesn't see that should seriously stop for a moment and consider an eventuality, that they are over invested in a game of toy soldiers.

I am on record in this thread stating that both PL and points are fine, and haven't advocated for the removal of either.

I have merely pointed out that the very thread started with the premise of removing points. That's the entire impetus behind my being here. This thread has been ridiculous for days.


Yes - an unendorsed hypothetical "what if" scenario to discuss the possible state of the community after such change. There is no sentiment in the OP, no "pts should go" or "pts should stay". There is only "IMHO no armageddon will happen and people will get over it eventually" answer by OP. I don't know how you imagine starting a "what if GW goes insane" thread without mentioning what kind of insanity you have in mind.

If you want to build a proper genocide analogy it would not be "should we kill all the XYZ people" but instead "do you think, that killing XYZ people would result in WW III or would no one bat an eye", which is a perfectly valid question given current political climate in the world. Does this framing endorses genocide? Of course not - it does however acknowledge, that the world is a gakky place and sometimes people get hurt for no reason at all.

I'd say it's unclear as to whether or not the hypothetical is "unendorsed". It's arguably open to interpretation, and that the later (after nearly 20 pages to provide context) question to the "value" of points goes further towards endorsement.

I'd say that claiming the OP can't be interpreted as an endorsed hypothetical is certainly disingenuous.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Insectum7 wrote:
I'd say it's unclear as to whether or not the hypothetical is "unendorsed". It's arguably open to interpretation, and that the later (after nearly 20 pages to provide context) question to the "value" of points goes further towards endorsement.

I'd say that claiming the OP can't be interpreted as an endorsed hypothetical is certainly disingenuous.
Exactly, it's "open to interpretation" - but I asked for serious, unambiguous declarations from users stating that "points should be scrapped". I don't think I've seen one.
However, I *have* seen plenty of the opposites - both "no, points shouldn't be scrapped" (from both sides!) and "no, PL should be scrapped" (which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic, and is just an excuse for people to keep stoking their hatred of small numbers, I guess?)


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

No, sorry bud. You made your bed. Walk your awful analogy back, or keep having folks call you out. It's called taking responsibility.
Not on your life. It's proven the point that hypotheticals can stir up emotions wonderfully.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

Andykp wrote:
2. They are absolute arseholes who don’t care about anyone but themselves and get their kicks from berating a terminally ill person online.


Just had to pull this one up from a couple pages back because wow, you're a complete donkey-cave. Way to trivialize someone's real life situation as a way to score cheap points in an internet argument. Even for you this is a pretty impressive low.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

No, sorry bud. You made your bed. Walk your awful analogy back, or keep having folks call you out. It's called taking responsibility.
Not on your life. It's proven the point that hypotheticals can stir up emotions wonderfully.
I'm not sure what kind of troll logic this is, but no, it doesn't prove anything about hypotheticals.

Like I've repeatedly tried to get into your head, which you seem ignorant to understand, is that your "hypothetical" wasn't the issue. The issue is that you compared a question about toy soldiers to the Holocaust. However, all you've done, like most troll logics, is turn around and say "AHA YOU WERE OFFENDED, I PROVED MY POINT" - no, your point still floundered, and being ridiculously ignorant, offensive, or crass (take your pick) about real world genocide just makes you look like a tool.

Do you actually understand why that's a problem?


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There isn't any "discussion" to be had when users can just invalidate the life and experiences of other people here.


And oh look, right on schedule the other PL defender pulls their own dishonest argument. The comment that got "we don't believe you" is not personal life experience, it's speculation about what other people would do in a hypothetical situation. So why should one person's speculation be treated as absolute law that can never be questioned? Are you so lacking in honest defenses for PL that you have to resort to dishonesty like this?

The thread asked if *points* should be scrapped. No-one agreed with that. Open and shut case.


Oh please. Everyone, OP included, knew this thread was going to become a general points vs. PL argument pretty much immediately. And whether or not it technically started as that for 1-2 posts before changing topics it's very clear what the discussion now is and you can not claim you are being treated badly just because you decided to continue participating in the argument and people questioned your claims.

So BIndmage and I don't count as "anyone".


If you get anything of value out of GW declaring your games Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ Games™ then you need to get out of the cult of officialness. You're playing a game where the whole point is doing your own thing, choosing the rules that suit your needs, etc. You aren't playing in a pickup game setting at a store/club or in tournaments where standardization is important so there is absolutely no reason for anyone involved to care if your games are Official™ or not.

What if I don't agree with that principle though.


Then you're wrong about game design, much like the people who write the 40k rules. Ignoring this principle is how you get bloated games like 9th edition 40k, 3.5e D&D, etc.

Because needlessly dividing the game and community into different factions is bad.
Why?


Because 40k's biggest advantage is that it's the game everyone plays, that you can build an army and know that wherever you go you can drop into a store/club and play a game. It's similar to how one of MTG's best tools for market dominance has been its standardization of formats and Friday Night Magic events, where you can drop into a store anywhere for FNM and play a night of MTG without worrying about if the local store's house rules invalidate all of your decks. The more a community is divided into separate formats the less this is true, and PL is a completely unnecessary division.

You don't have proof for this. You have only offered conjecture.


I'm sorry that I don't have a signed and notarized confession by a GW employee but that doesn't make my theory false. Perhaps you need to learn how standards of evidence work, and what evidence it would be reasonable to expect to have in this situation as people who are not GW employees?

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





 Insectum7 wrote:
nou wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
nou wrote:
This thread makes me wonder if you guys are serious or deliberately trolling each other.

There are only two valid answers to the "what will happen if points are binned" hypothetical:

- "IMHO there will be outrage so epic, that Nothingham will burn to the ground"

- "IMHO nothing spectacular will happen. There will be some tears, but community will prevail."

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing in this thread warrants invoking a genocide, even a hypothetical one. Anyone who doesn't see that should seriously stop for a moment and consider an eventuality, that they are over invested in a game of toy soldiers.

I am on record in this thread stating that both PL and points are fine, and haven't advocated for the removal of either.

I have merely pointed out that the very thread started with the premise of removing points. That's the entire impetus behind my being here. This thread has been ridiculous for days.


Yes - an unendorsed hypothetical "what if" scenario to discuss the possible state of the community after such change. There is no sentiment in the OP, no "pts should go" or "pts should stay". There is only "IMHO no armageddon will happen and people will get over it eventually" answer by OP. I don't know how you imagine starting a "what if GW goes insane" thread without mentioning what kind of insanity you have in mind.

If you want to build a proper genocide analogy it would not be "should we kill all the XYZ people" but instead "do you think, that killing XYZ people would result in WW III or would no one bat an eye", which is a perfectly valid question given current political climate in the world. Does this framing endorses genocide? Of course not - it does however acknowledge, that the world is a gakky place and sometimes people get hurt for no reason at all.

I'd say it's unclear as to whether or not the hypothetical is "unendorsed". It's arguably open to interpretation, and that the later (after nearly 20 pages to provide context) question to the "value" of points goes further towards endorsement.

I'd say that claiming the OP can't be interpreted as an endorsed hypothetical is certainly disingenuous.


No, discussing the value of points is discussing game design, not endorsing the change you have no power over. Points as a balance tool have been discussed on this forum since the times immemorial, with many, including myself, being on very clear position, that they are piss poor balancing mechanism in the first place. Before 8th, they were all abstract game design discussions. But since PLs dropped, those perfectly legitimate academic threads turned into gak fests because a large and vocal part of the community fear the (even slightly) possible departure from current incarnation of points as if it was the end of the world. So the OP asked directly - would it really be the end of the world, or is there a hope in the post-apointcalyptic world.

And his position is exacly same as mine - 40k would prevail, as it always did, because this is a gakky game to begin with and everybody playing it deep down accepts this simple truth and endures whatever GW throws at them. Or rage quits along the way, as I once did, but then comes back after few years. Or decades.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

No, sorry bud. You made your bed. Walk your awful analogy back, or keep having folks call you out. It's called taking responsibility.
Not on your life. It's proven the point that hypotheticals can stir up emotions wonderfully.
I'm not sure what kind of troll logic this is, but no, it doesn't prove anything about hypotheticals.

Like I've repeatedly tried to get into your head, which you seem ignorant to understand, is that your "hypothetical" wasn't the issue. The issue is that you compared a question about toy soldiers to the Holocaust. However, all you've done, like most troll logics, is turn around and say "AHA YOU WERE OFFENDED, I PROVED MY POINT" - no, your point still floundered, and being ridiculously ignorant, offensive, or crass (take your pick) about real world genocide just makes you look like a tool.

Do you actually understand why that's a problem?
I see why it's a problem for YOU, and I don't care if it is. (and it absolutely did prove my point)

The very premise of the thread is the removal of a game mechanic that many people ascribe a lot of value to. This is the internet. More to the point maybe, this is dakka. It is extremely unsurprising that some people have taken to that topic passionately.

What IS shocking is that it's gone on this long, given the overall level of discourse.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

nou wrote:
But since PLs dropped, those perfectly legitimate academic threads turned into gak fests because a large and vocal part of the community fear the (even slightly) possible departure from current incarnation of points as if it was the end of the world.


No, they turned nasty because certain "casual" players adopted PL because of its flaws, because using a badly designed point system with deliberate errors was a way to show how little they cared about competitive play. PL became a symbol for this style of play completely independent of any of its functional value, and therefore any suggestion of removing it is an attack on the "casual" identity that must not be permitted. This is why, when asked to defend PL, the reasons quickly devolve into "I have an opinion and you have to respect it" or "why do you want to ruin my game". None of the practical value justifications hold up to any scrutiny so all that is left is insisting that the other side is all Bad People who are persecuting the harmless PL players.

THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






nou wrote:

No, discussing the value of points is discussing game design, not endorsing the change you have no power over.
In your interpretation.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There isn't any "discussion" to be had when users can just invalidate the life and experiences of other people here.


And oh look, right on schedule the other PL defender pulls their own dishonest argument. The comment that got "we don't believe you" is not personal life experience, it's speculation about what other people would do in a hypothetical situation. So why should one person's speculation be treated as absolute law that can never be questioned? Are you so lacking in honest defenses for PL that you have to resort to dishonesty like this
Person A: "In this hypothetical situtaion, what would you do?"
Person B: "I'd probably do this."
Person A: "You're either lying about that or mistaken."

Is it possible that Smudge and Blndmage are mistaken about how they'd respond to PL's removal? Sure.
Is it likely that you know them better than they know themselves, when you're literally a stranger on a forum who has no interaction with them outside of text posted to a website? Hell no.

You're assuming you know best, even when it comes to other people's personal preference, which is just ridiculously arrogant.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight



Cadia

 JNAProductions wrote:
Person A: "In this hypothetical situtaion, what would you do?"
Person B: "I'd probably do this."
Person A: "You're either lying about that or mistaken."


Except that's not what was said. The quote was about what other people in her group might do. That isn't personal experience, it's speculation about the choices of a third party. So please don't keep making this dishonest substitution.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 19:41:53


THE PLANET BROKE BEFORE THE GUARD! 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Person A: "In this hypothetical situtaion, what would you do?"
Person B: "I'd probably do this."
Person A: "You're either lying about that or mistaken."


Except that's not what was said. The quote was about what other people in her group might do. That isn't personal experience, it's speculation about the choices of a third party. So please don't keep making this dishonest substitution.
Who do you think knows her friends better?
Me, you, or Blndmage?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blackie wrote:
Unless you're an "official at all cost" zealot I don't see why you can't already do that. I mean it's narrative play, not competitive gaming. I don't believe you can't find players who refuse to play that kind of game by using points or other house rules. How hard is it to convert PL into points?


Kind of a pain in the ass, actually, since some of the Crusade upgrades only have a PL cost, not points. I'd rather it all be in points and then the PL people could convert it if they really wanted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.

I can only put the attitudes in this thread from the likes of sgt bob and hecaton and their allies down to two things.

1. They are being deliberately ignorant to provoke a response. Basically bullying to make them selves feel good in some weird way.

2. They are absolute arseholes who don’t care about anyone but themselves and get their kicks from berating a terminally ill person online.

……wait, they’re the same thing. Guess that clears it up.


This started with people who were pushing for points to be removed being aggressive about it, so not really a valid way of looking at the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
My comment was an insult but a deserved one based on the same facts smudge highlights in his.


Smudge isn't big on facts, so that's weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.


Smudge and lying. It's like peanut butter and jelly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Silly analogies aside, we actually do have have people here arguing for a removal of PL.


Yup, and those of us who are have a good basis for doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Blndmage did too but I'm not going to go back and find it.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/07/12 20:02:29


 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

Spoiler:
Hecaton wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
Unless you're an "official at all cost" zealot I don't see why you can't already do that. I mean it's narrative play, not competitive gaming. I don't believe you can't find players who refuse to play that kind of game by using points or other house rules. How hard is it to convert PL into points?


Kind of a pain in the ass, actually, since some of the Crusade upgrades only have a PL cost, not points. I'd rather it all be in points and then the PL people could convert it if they really wanted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
Why is so hard for those pushing for PL to be removed to understand that they have a different experience of the game form others. They aren’t right, they just like different things.

I can only put the attitudes in this thread from the likes of sgt bob and hecaton and their allies down to two things.

1. They are being deliberately ignorant to provoke a response. Basically bullying to make them selves feel good in some weird way.

2. They are absolute arseholes who don’t care about anyone but themselves and get their kicks from berating a terminally ill person online.

……wait, they’re the same thing. Guess that clears it up.


This started with people who were pushing for points to be removed being aggressive about it, so not really a valid way of looking at the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote:
My comment was an insult but a deserved one based on the same facts smudge highlights in his.


Smudge isn't big on facts, so that's weird.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
. . . and you'll find that essentially no-one in this thread has seriously suggested actually removing points.


OP, second sentence: "Would anyone actually have a marked decrease in play if 40k went full Power Levels and abandoned points entirely?"

It's the very start of the thread.


Smudge and lying. It's like peanut butter and jelly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Silly analogies aside, we actually do have have people here arguing for a removal of PL.


Yup, and those of us who are have a good basis for doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Blndmage did too but I'm not going to go back and find it.


I didn't advocate for the removal of points. I did answer the posed question saying I'd probably get more games in and it was a win win.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There isn't any "discussion" to be had when users can just invalidate the life and experiences of other people here.


And oh look, right on schedule the other PL defender pulls their own dishonest argument. The comment that got "we don't believe you" is not personal life experience, it's speculation about what other people would do in a hypothetical situation. So why should one person's speculation be treated as absolute law that can never be questioned? Are you so lacking in honest defenses for PL that you have to resort to dishonesty like this?
If someone says "this is what I'd do" or "this is how I feel" or "this is why I do what I do", why on earth would your speculation, as someone who is not the other user, mean squat?

If a user is literally explaining their own thoughts and feelings, those are true. You literally don't have any evidence to doubt that, or to say that they're wrong, or that they aren't being genuine, and you certainly don't have the right to say "but are you SURE you feel that way".

It's not dishonesty, it's genuine *honesty*. The fact that being someone being honest with you and still disagreeing fills you with such fear that you need to resort to "but do they REALLY feel like this" tactics only speaks to how little you are willing to accept differing beliefs.
No-one cares if you prefer points. You're welcome to. Just let us enjoy our stuff, knowing that at least WE enjoy it.

The thread asked if *points* should be scrapped. No-one agreed with that. Open and shut case.


Oh please. Everyone, OP included, knew this thread was going to become a general points vs. PL argument pretty much immediately. And whether or not it technically started as that for 1-2 posts before changing topics it's very clear what the discussion now is and you can not claim you are being treated badly just because you decided to continue participating in the argument and people questioned your claims.
It's very clear the discussion is off-topic, yes. And folks are still being treated badly because we've literally got comments saying "I want PL gone so that the filthy casuals can be gatekept" - a paraphrasing, but an accurate one from Hecaton and Plague.

So BIndmage and I don't count as "anyone".


If you get anything of value out of GW declaring your games Official™ Warhammer™ 40k™ Games™ then you need to get out of the cult of officialness. You're playing a game where the whole point is doing your own thing, choosing the rules that suit your needs, etc. You aren't playing in a pickup game setting at a store/club or in tournaments where standardization is important so there is absolutely no reason for anyone involved to care if your games are Official™ or not.
No, stop deflecting from what you just said. You said that BIndmage and I didn't count as "anyone". Own up to that.

What if I don't agree with that principle though.
Then you're wrong about game design, much like the people who write the 40k rules. Ignoring this principle is how you get bloated games like 9th edition 40k, 3.5e D&D, etc.
Newflash kid, but there isn't a "wrong" way to enjoy games. If I enjoy it, then that's what matters. Get over it, I guess.

Because needlessly dividing the game and community into different factions is bad.
Why?


Because 40k's biggest advantage is that it's the game everyone plays, that you can build an army and know that wherever you go you can drop into a store/club and play a game. It's similar to how one of MTG's best tools for market dominance has been its standardization of formats and Friday Night Magic events, where you can drop into a store anywhere for FNM and play a night of MTG without worrying about if the local store's house rules invalidate all of your decks. The more a community is divided into separate formats the less this is true, and PL is a completely unnecessary division.
I disagree that 40k's biggest advantage is being able to pick up and play anyone, and if 40k was to actually more fully become that, I'd actually dislike that immensely. I don't want to be encouraged to make a random army and just plop it down anywhere and play a meaningless silent game. I want to discuss the game, I want to Forge That Narrative, and I want to have fun, bespoke missions. I don't want standardisation. I don't want homogeneity. I want all players to have a niche for what they enjoy.

Clearly, we have different opinions of what we want from 40k. But that's just it - OPINIONS. You're welcome to yours, and I'm welcome to mine, and neither of us are wrong.

You don't have proof for this. You have only offered conjecture.


I'm sorry that I don't have a signed and notarized confession by a GW employee but that doesn't make my theory false. Perhaps you need to learn how standards of evidence work, and what evidence it would be reasonable to expect to have in this situation as people who are not GW employees?
Exactly - you need to show me some actual evidence that meets the basic standards of it, otherwise, it IS just what you said - a "theory", and I don't care about your theory in this context.

Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

No, sorry bud. You made your bed. Walk your awful analogy back, or keep having folks call you out. It's called taking responsibility.
Not on your life. It's proven the point that hypotheticals can stir up emotions wonderfully.
I'm not sure what kind of troll logic this is, but no, it doesn't prove anything about hypotheticals.

Like I've repeatedly tried to get into your head, which you seem ignorant to understand, is that your "hypothetical" wasn't the issue. The issue is that you compared a question about toy soldiers to the Holocaust. However, all you've done, like most troll logics, is turn around and say "AHA YOU WERE OFFENDED, I PROVED MY POINT" - no, your point still floundered, and being ridiculously ignorant, offensive, or crass (take your pick) about real world genocide just makes you look like a tool.

Do you actually understand why that's a problem?
I see why it's a problem for YOU, and I don't care if it is.
This just in, Insectum considers using the Holocaust as a cheap way to make inflammatory arguments, and doesn't think that's a problem.

I literally don't need to address anything else. You're genuinely unhinged.

CadianSgtBob wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Person A: "In this hypothetical situtaion, what would you do?"
Person B: "I'd probably do this."
Person A: "You're either lying about that or mistaken."


Except that's not what was said. The quote was about what other people in her group might do. That isn't personal experience, it's speculation about the choices of a third party. So please don't keep making this dishonest substitution.
And who knows the people in her group more? You or her? Who is closer, both in experience and familiarity with the people in BIndmage's group? Well, I think by me even calling it "BIndmage's group", I think that answers itself.

Quit trying to act like everyone thinks the same as you. They don't.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




nou wrote:

I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...


It's because the anti-points crowd has been the most hostile. JNA doesn't want to action against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Blndmage wrote:


My dad was born in a camp.
No
Just, no.


rpg.net might be a safer space for you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 20:06:47


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Hecaton wrote:
This started with people who were pushing for points to be removed being aggressive about it, so not really a valid way of looking at the issue.
No, it didn't. Stop lying out of your arse.

If any of y'all actually care to see the breakdown of who said what, on about page 17 or 18, I made a list of every time someone mentioned "getting rid" of something, or advocated for it. The answers might shock you (they won't)!!


Andykp wrote:
My comment was an insult but a deserved one based on the same facts smudge highlights in his.


Smudge isn't big on facts, so that's weird.
Strange, coming from a comment which lies about people being "aggressive".


Smudge and lying. It's like peanut butter and jelly.
Delicious, and sticky enough that it's all in your mouth?
For saying that you have me on ignore, you do LOVE to talk about me. It's kinda cute.


 Gordon Shumway wrote:
Silly analogies aside, we actually do have have people here arguing for a removal of PL.


Yup, and those of us who are have a good basis for doing so.
When you remove your capacity for empathy, yes.


 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Blndmage did too but I'm not going to go back and find it.
Actually, I don't believe she did - if you want to prove it, that onus is on you, dear.

BUT, even if so - wow. That's, what, one, two, compared to at least five? Shocking. So equivalent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hecaton wrote:
nou wrote:

I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...


It's because the anti-points crowd has been the most hostile. JNA doesn't want to action against them.
Would you like some fries to go with that victim card you're waving?


 Blndmage wrote:


My dad was born in a camp.
No
Just, no.


rpg.net might be a safer space for you
Alternatively, a Dakka without you in it also would be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 20:12:25



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 JNAProductions wrote:
Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.

And arguably probably the most civil one at that.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Smudge speaks more sense then hecaton or sgt bob put together, the most sensible is jna who uses points but can see how ridiculous you anti PL lot are being, and by ridiculous I mean “fething dicks”.

What would you do if they got rid of power levels? - hypothetical.

How about we kill all the jews, written in an attempt at a German accent isn’t hypothetical, it happened. What eve argument you are trying to win, that gak won’t win it. Unless the argument is “am i a Nazi?” You would win that.

Now I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren’t a Nazi, but only just. What this definitely shows about you insectum7, is that you are incapable of a mature or sensible conversation, even about toys. I don’t believe for a second you didn’t think this would be offensive. You knew full well what you were saying was as gakky as it gets. So we’ll, done, I hope you are proud of yourself. You did a petty nasty thing to make yourself feel clever. But all you did was reveal what a prick you are. Bravo.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Blndmage wrote:

I didn't advocate for the removal of points. I did answer the posed question saying I'd probably get more games in and it was a win win.


Calling it a win win (because you'd get more games and I'd get less) is definitely advocating for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.


Weren't you at one point?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 20:19:32


 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

 Backspacehacker wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.

And arguably probably the most civil one at that.


Seconded.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

Hecaton wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.


Weren't you at one point?
No. I've never been a mod.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Andykp wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Wait, why was I brought up there?
I'm not a mod. I'm just another poster.

And arguably probably the most civil one at that.


Seconded.
Thirded. JNA represents who so many people in this thread either are unable, or unwilling, to be: empathetic. JNA doesn't play PL, but respects that people enjoy it, and that's reason enough not to get rid of it to spite them.

No-one's asking anyone to start playing PL. We're literally only saying "hey, before you talk about scrapping it, have some empathy and respect for the people who do play it".


They/them

 
   
 
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