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If GW actually went full in on PL would it actually change the ammount of 40k you play?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?
Nah, apparently one person asking a hypothetical question is the same thing as at least three users vociferously calling for PL to be abolished, and the people who play it should be weeded out from the game as "filthy casuals" who deserve to be gatekept.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Backspacehacker wrote:People who suggest to remove PL, be it many or singular are equally ridiculous in that suggestion. There is no real good reason to remove PL, just as there is no real good reason to remove points.
Both suggestions are ridiculous.
Yes, they are, but let's not kid ourselves on who the loudest voices calling for those "suggestions" are.

Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
"Vy don't ve abandon of all ze jews?"
"Iz zer any value in not going arian only?"
"Hey I'm just asking ze qvestions!, vy iz everybody zo upset?"
As I already pointed out to you, you're comparing asking questions about a points system in a toy soldier game to... genociding the Jews (and by extension, members of the LGBTQ+ community, the disabled, and those of a different political opinion)?
You don't think for a second that maybe you're overreacting just a tad here?

I'm not exactly sure you're arguing here in good faith. Do all hypothetical questions get this rise from you?

No "rise" involved. The subject is different but the form is exactly the same.

Everyone is free to ask any questions they desire, but then they have to bear responsibility for the discussion that follows. The very premise of the thread involves the removal of points. Any suggestion otherwise is false.
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:35:58



They/them

 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





I think I finally understand this thread.

Point side read the OP as agitation towards removing points and felt threatened, as if OP or any other PL player had any power over GW and the mere existence of PLs somehow ensures this will happen, so everything must be done to purge this heresy, even if it is used in a “tiny minority” of closely knitted, closed groups of garagehammer players and has zero influence on pick-up culture and tournament circuit.

The rest read that as follows: „if, in an apocalyptic turn of events, GW went full PL, as some recent signs seem to indicate that, would that result in mass player outflow and collapse of 40k? Or would people bitch and moan but eventually get over it and move on, playing the new version of the game, because ultimately, competitive scene always prevails, no matter how much of a gakshow 40k is at the moment?.” With the suggested answer from Fezzik, that the latter outcome is more probable than the former.

Seriously, the amount of insecurity flooding this thread is astounding.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 16:40:52


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
CadianSgtBob wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
Then push GW to actually review PL costs the way we do with broken units and point costs. They don't know there an issue unless they hear about it.

That way, they get adjust as needed to balance with points, and the rest of us can keep playing how we enjoy. There's no need to remove anything.


PL has inherent systemic problems that can not be fixed by reviewing individual costs. The system is inaccurate by design and can never be correct, the only way it can be fixed is for it to be removed.


I could say the same about points, considering that PL is a core part of the game system (thank you for reminding me), and points is actually the added tally system, shouldn't it be the one that would be removed?

Considering the constant time spent adjusting things, at times in 1 point increments when just adjusting the PL would be easier and fit with the rest of the game as points are the odd one out now. We used PL in 8th too, but I played much less as the bigger board size was a real impediment.

You said you were a game designer, but this post puts that claim entirely up to speculation. PL has the obvious problems of Formations like Battle Demi-Company and War Convocation but you still defend it anyway.
This BS again?

War Convocation and the **GLADIUS** (not the demi-company, get your comparisons right, if you're going to make them) were a problem because unless you declined to play at all, you always ran the risk of your OPPONENT taking them. You couldn't stop your opponent doing gak, short of talking with them, or just not playing with them.

With PL, you can still play points and it literally won't affect you. How many times do I have to drill this into you?

I can refuse to play someone wanting to use PL the same I can refuse to play someone using Battle Demi-Company (which gave the free units when you took two, Gladius still just gave the benefit of the Doctrines, but keep going off about it) and War Convocation. Both Battle Demi-Company and War Convocation don't NEED to be abused. But nobody would ever argue they were good. So don't argue PL is good, either.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Because the people calling for the removal of the Point or PL system are both equally stupid in that suggestion.

Points are the mainstay of the game, always has been, always will be.
PL is a secondary mode of play, and really is just Warhammer lite. You should not want to stay in power level, as PL is basically the floor demo version of the game. It was not designed around it.

If PL vanished tomorrow there would not be enough care to warrant any concern over its loss. If it remained for the next 20 years, im sure those 5 people that play it will be happy about it.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Backspacehacker wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Im not sure but either way the question of if anyone is suggesting to remove points is yes there are people here suggesting that, it might only be one, but its still someone here suggesting it.
So technical yes, its being suggested, and technically right is the best kinda right.

If others wanna argue over the technicality of how many people are people they can argue to their hearts content at this point.

People who suggest to remove PL, be it many or singular are equally ridiculous in that suggestion. There is no real good reason to remove PL, just as there is no real good reason to remove points.
Both suggestions are ridiculous.

Main difference is PL isn't functional in theory or execution.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, one singular person advocated for the removal of points. And the remainder of people who support keeping PL have said "We don't agree with Fezzik, points should stay in addition to PL."
How many have advocated for the removal of PL?


Im not sure but either way the question of if anyone is suggesting to remove points is yes there are people here suggesting that, it might only be one, but its still someone here suggesting it.
So technical yes, its being suggested, and technically right is the best kinda right.

If others wanna argue over the technicality of how many people are people they can argue to their hearts content at this point.

People who suggest to remove PL, be it many or singular are equally ridiculous in that suggestion. There is no real good reason to remove PL, just as there is no real good reason to remove points.
Both suggestions are ridiculous.

Main difference is PL isn't functional in theory or execution.


No its fully functional, in the same way a oblong wheel is functional.
Does not mean it functions good, but it still functions.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes. But it shouldn't be required. You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





EviscerationPlague wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
War Convocation and the **GLADIUS** (not the demi-company, get your comparisons right, if you're going to make them) were a problem because unless you declined to play at all, you always ran the risk of your OPPONENT taking them. You couldn't stop your opponent doing gak, short of talking with them, or just not playing with them.

With PL, you can still play points and it literally won't affect you. How many times do I have to drill this into you?

I can refuse to play someone wanting to use PL the same I can refuse to play someone using Battle Demi-Company (which gave the free units when you took two, Gladius still just gave the benefit of the Doctrines, but keep going off about it) and War Convocation.
Uh, not really??

PL is an entirely parallel way of playing the game. Points and PL don't occupy the same design space, let alone the same place on tabletop. If you refuse PL, you are doing so because you are playing an entirely different points system yourself - you're doing so because of YOUR choices, not reacting to the choice of somone else.

In contrast, Gladius (which was the only way of getting the benefit from having both Demi-Companies, see spoiler below) is your OPPONENT'S choice to take. You can make whatever decision you want, but your choice not to play against your opponent is done because of THEIR actions, not your choice of preferred game mode. You're better off comparing the Gladius to declining it when you opponent chooses to play a Knight army, or when they take a skew list - they've been perfectly legal in what they've done, but it will negatively affect YOU regardless.
So don't argue PL is good, either.
But it is good - good for what I want from it. You can disagree, but the good news is that it literally doesn't affect you, so you can get over it.

Spoiler:

That was the Demi-Company formation page.

This is the Gladius detachment page:


Gee, it looks like Company Support is only gained from the GLADIUS, not the Demi-Company.
I'll take my cheque in the mail, please.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes.
Aaaaand no, it isn't, because it's completely absurd. Comparing points for a toy soldiers game to the Holocaust is, at best, laughably absurd, and at worst, extremely offensive over the ACTUAL Holocaust.
You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.
And you should know that "reacting accordingly" doesn't mean that you should be comparing asking a hypothetical question to advocating for genocide.

"If you had only two sandwiches to choose from, ham and cheese or a BLT, which would you eat?" Or is that also a problematic hypothetical for you?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/12 17:01:09



They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes.
Aaaaand no, it isn't, because it's completely absurd. Comparing points for a toy soldiers game to the Holocaust is, at best, laughably absurd, and at worst, extremely offensive over the ACTUAL Holocaust.
You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.
And you should know that "reacting accordingly" doesn't mean that you should be comparing asking a hypothetical question to advocating for genocide.

"If you had only two sandwiches to choose from, ham and cheese or a BLT, which would you eat?" Or is that also a problematic hypothetical for you?

I think my point is made. Hypotheticals can elicit strong emotional reactions.

Try starting a thread about "hypothetically" removing Space Marines from the game and see how it's responded to. Then pop in again mid-thread and say "hey guys, it's just a hypothetical. . . but y'know, what's the VALUE in keeping Space Marines?" and just see how it goes.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Insectum7 wrote:
I think my point is made. Hypotheticals can elicit strong emotional reactions.
It's not the hypothetical that's the issue here, the issue is that you're comparing the bloody Holocaust to toy soldiers, you complete melon.

Try starting a thread about "hypothetically" removing Space Marines from the game and see how it's responded to. Then pop in again mid-thread and say "hey guys, it's just a hypothetical. . . but y'know, what's the VALUE in keeping Space Marines?" and just see how it goes.
And it'll get the same response - no-one seriously wants to remove them, just like with points. But the important part is that they're bloody toy soldiers, and not, yanno, the fething Holocaust.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 17:31:00



They/them

 
   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





This thread is a trip.


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I think my point is made. Hypotheticals can elicit strong emotional reactions.
It's not the hypothetical that's the issue here, the issue is that you're comparing the bloody Holocaust to toy soldiers, you complete melon.
Oh get over yourself.

 Sim-Life wrote:
This thread is a trip.
You can say that again.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
I think my point is made. Hypotheticals can elicit strong emotional reactions.
It's not the hypothetical that's the issue here, the issue is that you're comparing the bloody Holocaust to toy soldiers, you complete melon.
Oh get over yourself.
Mate, you're the one who decided to compare toy soldiers to the Holocaust. If anyone needs to "get over it", have you considered yourself?

 Sim-Life wrote:
This thread is a trip.
You can say that again.
No kidding. I didn't think that asking hypothetical questions was comparable to advocating for genocide, but here we are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 17:50:54



They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Sim-Life wrote:
This thread is a trip.


Its like one of those road trips were 2 others of the trip are arguing and you are in the back seat snacking watching the unexpected entertainment while also throwing in a few barbs here and there to keep it going.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in ca
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin





Stasis

 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes. But it shouldn't be required. You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.


My dad was born in a camp.
No
Just, no.

213PL 60PL 12PL 9-17PL
(she/her) 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in pl
Wicked Warp Spider





 Backspacehacker wrote:
And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.


I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






nou wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.


I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...


I suspect, *Dawns tinfoil hat* that if you jsut let people argue it out with each other, eventually they get tired enough of one another, block each other, then the thread gets locked.

That way it reduces arguments in the future, lord knows i have done it.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Blndmage wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes. But it shouldn't be required. You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.


My dad was born in a camp.
No
Just, no.
Like I said, it shouldn't be required. Was it?

I mean I tried making the same point before without invoking holocaust language, but the point apparently didn't stick sooo . . .

Can people react strongly hypotheticals? (survey says yes)

Are you surprised people react strongly to hypothetical removal of game mechanics? (survey also says yes)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
nou wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.


I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...
Same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 18:11:49


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne




nou wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.


I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...


I believe I've said the same in here a few times, I got a "who made you lord of the forums" type response last time. It's like a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning round here atm, all mindless flailing at nothing and even if a point does connect it's promptly ignored for a return gentle bonk.
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Insectum7 wrote:
 Blndmage wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Answer the question - do you think it's appropriate to compare asking hypothetical questions about the points of a toy soldier game to advocating for the Holocaust?

Yes or no.
If it's required to get the point across, yes. But it shouldn't be required. You should know that just because a premise is hypothetical, it doesn't mean people won't take offense and react accordingly.


My dad was born in a camp.
No
Just, no.
Like I said, it shouldn't be required. Was it?
No, it wasn't required, your point was still an awful one before you compared toy soldiers to the Holocaust.

I mean I tried making the same point before without invoking holocaust language, but the point apparently didn't stick sooo . . .
Your point didn't stick because it was an awful point anyway. Having a bad point doesn't mean you can suddenly try and invoke the Holocaust.

Can people react strongly hypotheticals? (survey says yes)
People aren't reacting strongly the hypothetical though. They're reacting because you compared toy soldiers to the bloody Holocaust. Did that not go in?

Are you surprised people react strongly to hypothetical removal of game mechanics? (survey also says yes)
No, I am genuinely surprised too, especially when their "reaction" apparently justifies them invoking the damn Holocaust over a game of toy soldiers.

It's frankly grim that you felt that was reasonable.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?


@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 18:23:03


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Dudeface wrote:
nou wrote:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
And with this, i think its fully safe to say this thread has reached its inevitable end.

With Goodwin's law in full effect across the spectrum.


I sincerely wonder why this thread isn't locked since twenty pages ago...


I believe I've said the same in here a few times, I got a "who made you lord of the forums" type response last time.
Likewise, I think the *actual* topic was resolved on like page 3 before people decided to break out their "I hate PL" personalities. Lord knows I've been reporting the more egregious comments, but it seems like the mods just don't care.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?
British slang.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/12 18:23:06



They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






 Insectum7 wrote:
"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?


I dont speak British i could not tell you.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
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 Insectum7 wrote:
@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!
Come on, just mention the Holocaust a few more times. You brought it up, after all.


They/them

 
   
Made in us
Paramount Plague Censer Bearer





After years upon years of everything being compared to the holocaust and nazis, I'm honestly not phased by any such hypothetical. Sure, it's an extreme hypothetical, but that was the point.
Also "Having a bad point doesn't mean you can suddenly try and invoke the Holocaust" is such a disingenuous way of phrasing that. You're blowing a hypothetical out of the water. Also, not just a hypothetical. A hypothetical hypothetical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, to answer the thread, I don't play 40k, so the amount I play wouldn't change. But if the Horus Heresy was only Power Level, I probably wouldn't touch it.
I'll add that I don't play Kill Team, mostly because of the lack of points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/07/12 18:37:38


‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley 
   
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NE Ohio, USA

 Insectum7 wrote:
"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?


@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!


Thought you volunteered with your pro-Holocaust gak.
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos






ccs wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?


@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!


Thought you volunteered with your pro-Holocaust gak.


how was his comment pro-holocaust?

   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Likewise, I think the *actual* topic was resolved on like page 3 before people decided to break out their "I hate PL" personalities.


I don't specifically hate PL just for existing, I hate that it's created people who will argue that feet are just as precise as millimeters because they can't count past 10 without taking their shoes off. It's like a valet key for an exotic car. Does it have a reason for existing? Yes! Should it be the default when you want to get in the car and have a good time driving it? No because that wasn't its purpose despite the fact that someone who doesn't know how to drive and is scared of fast cars might prefer to use it all the time.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!
Come on, just mention the Holocaust a few more times. You brought it up, after all.
You're the one choosing to dwell on it. Like instead of having a counter argument, it's just this now.

ccs wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
"a group of stoned chavs outside the chippy on the white lightning"

lolwtf?


@Smudge: Keep it going man, get it locked! DO IT!


Thought you volunteered with your pro-Holocaust gak.
That is a laughable accusation.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
 
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