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Ok I posted this on Warseer...

 

I wanted to know if the Last Chancers can bring demon hunters and witch hunters as allies.

Also how does one bring allies...? do I need to bring an inquisitor from each army or may I just pic and choose from the choices I have available? I noticed it doesn’t say 1 for HQ but 0-1 so I’m a bit confused.

 

So say

Last chancers (core HQ and 2 Troops),

Inquisitor (HQ DH),

Sister repentia or Arco flagellants (elite WH)

Demon host (elite DH),

Dominion Squad (fast attack WH)

and 2 Units of storm troopers would be a legal army?

 

 

The Last chancers may take Death Watch, Demon Hunter And Witch Hunters as allies.

 

But…

 

The Demon hunters FAQ states “Demon hunters may not ally with any detachment that uses any other kind of ally”

(I think this is meant for kroot mercs and eldar more than other imperial armies as it contradicts the rule in witch hunters codex)

 

The Witch Hunters codex states “Witch Hunters cannot ally with a force that uses any other type of ally with the Exception of separate detachments and units from other <st1:place w:st="on">Ordos</st1:place> of the inquisition”

 

 The Demon Hunters codex make no statement like this at all (my copy at least I know theres two versions)

 

I don’t care about Fluff in this case…the reason is, I’m trying to make a Penal troop army using Imperial codex rules…fluff has nothing to do with what I’m doing

 

So Model wise Chaffer and The Inquisitor become a High Judges, leadership models become Warrant  officers, basic troops are penal troop trusties (Storm troops) or Guards (battle sisters). Any archo flagellants, sisters repentia or demon host (the condemned and psychic prisoners respectively)

 

Once again GW confuses things. I see no problem with the army as it makes it Very hard to power game (2 HQs, 2 Elites, 1 Fast attack, 4 troops) I cant even bring Heavy support units.

Fluff isn’t an issue for me here. I’m making my own fluff.

So my choice is this or use the ork codex….I don’t want to use the Ork codex….

Penal troop army…why’d I get stuck wantin’ a penal troop army.

Fellas a little help…????

21 veiws and no replies..come on guys...help a brotha out.

Yes, the Last Chancers can have allies, but as IG Special Characters, Kage and Schaeffer force you to use an IG list. (at this point everyone goes "duh") IG lists that are not AC have a mandatory command platoon. So that's 40 points minimum for Junior Officer and ushers. Alliances with both WH and DH are legal for IG, just as the rules you cite imply. You need an Inquisitor from NEITHER OH NOR OM, unless your army includes any unit that specifies that an Inquisitor may betaken. RAW I believe allows for an OH or OM Inquisitor fulfil the Inquisitor requirements for troops such as Daemonhosts. So that mandatory slot screws you out of relatively little. Allied contingents have no minimum numbers of particular choices, only maximums.

As far as Schaeffer goes, just him, Kage and three or four demo charges would do the trick. What's cooler than the ol' human bomb routine anyways? Another whacked-out army idea is an OH Culexus, OM Inq with psycannon, tarot and maybe Termie Armour, Sanctioned Psykers as a doctrine and a swarm of Last Chancers with the Psyker upgrade...

I would personally say screw STs and use Hardened Veterans and/or Sentinels (if your elite slots are full) with Drop Troops instead. Especially screw Grenadiers/OM Stormies using Schaeffer - as he covers your troops choices if you don't want too much painting for a Guard list, and if you are low on firepower or bodies every other choice in the Codex is better. (maybe a slight exaggeration) Depending on RAW wording, you might be able to squeeze in a squad or two of power armoured human Riot Wardens or w/e using the Sisters stats. There are of course always the numerous platoons of ordinary guards - though a pain to paint, they make good places for lascannon to sit. Really, with two allied contingents and Scaeffer you've got a lot of flexibility with your infantry.

Also, if this is pre-buy and on a budget, I would put your vehicle money towards a pair of Russes with heavy bolters rather than a Rhino. One to start with, and a second after that.

No you don't need a command platoon for Last chancers...they make up the HQ and 2 Troops.
this whole mess with allies needs to be made very clear by G.W.

Which book or WD are you using for the rules? I know there was one out back in third when they brought out the figures, where all the original troopers were named (Hero, Ox, Animal, Warrior Woman, Fingers etc.) and got special rules when used by themselves against an entire NME FOC. I haven't seen any of the 4th edition rules for them in "suicide squad" formation. My assumption - wrongheaded perhaps - was that you might have been referring to Schaeffer's unit entry in Codex: IG. In what supplement or magazine did you mind these rules?

there Both the same it's the last chancers......no solid answer on this one.

If you're playing by the current 4th edition rules - BGB or BFM - using the current, tourney-legal Codex: IG as the base list for OM and OH allies, then you need a command platoon. It says right in the unit entry - "1 Command Platoon." No special character gets you around that, assuming you plan on playing by 4th edition rules.

If you're playing by third edition rules, they are no longer supported by GW since we are now in 4th. I think in that case you/your opponents, or the club ref/campaign organizer can pretty much do what you like with them. (i.e. make up your own rules, change the words in the codex with a pen to mean whatever you want, etc.) This is fairly popular since there is a fair sized group that holds 40k as a system in complete contempt - and I can't blame them, given the slow pace of FAQs and alleged lack of balance in some army books. Nothing is wrong with playing the miniatures YOU paid for with YOUR friends under rules the both of YOu made up - no one's forcing you to play by some corporations overpriced score guides.

From the Codex Imperial Guard FAQ:


If you take any allies, you are no longer playing an 'all Last Chancers army'. Therefore, if you want allies, you must take a Command Platoon.

Thats not what The G.W. "trolls" or "roolzboyz" whatever they are now has said... you may take allies while using the last chancers...but the only thing you can bring from the I.G. side is the lastchancers nothing else. you can then fill out the rest of the slots remaining with allies if you want...but it leaves you with 1 more H.Q 2 elites,1 fast attack(demon hunters have no fast attack slot), and up to 4 troops...also I can take up to 5 priest as a free H.Q and stick them with other units (see Witchhunters FAQ)
0-1 for H.Q. Elites, fast attack and 0-2 troops...now Xs 2 because your using 2 allies.
That was the first question I had for G.W. trolls can chancers take allies....the anwser was a clear "Yes"

Here is the way to get the army you were looking for. The answer comes with Imperial Guard army with Inquisitorial allies and the"Counts as" rule. Use the following Doctrines: Grenadiers.

Command Platoon - use IG rules but whichever miniatures you feel like:

Junior Officer- Counts as an Inducted Guard Henchman

Commissar - Counts as an Inquisitor - after all he gets to shoot people in his own squad
Psyker with Honorifica, force weapon - 'Inquisition hero' DONT use his psychic power.
Priest - Henchman
4 Guardsmen with various bits - all with carapace - Inducted warriors

Add two special weapons teams for small 6 man Penal infantry suicide units. Demo charges, plus sniper rifles flamers or melta guns to taste

Then add your Inquistor squad as normal.

Maybe add some Independant Commissars.

Add your Daemonhosts or  a Death Cult - Yet more single figures running around.

Add your Last Chancers

Finally add two troops choice units of five Grenadiers with power weapon sergeants to keep the list legal. Model them as Inquistorial Stormtroopers.


There you are lots and lots of little packages of penal Guard with Inquisitorial elites running all over the place, and more single unit models than anyone else can field.

Teleporting GK power armour is fast. The troops choices can't teleport.

Maybe you could try calling them with Ghaz's citation and ask "what does this sentence mean?" I suspect that might yield a different answer.

Also, out of curiosity, are you choosing your units primarily to eat points, or are you trying to make a fun or competitive army?

They're not official. The FAQ is.

Give it up.  The roolzboyz are wrong (as usual - big suprise).  You can not take allies if you are using just the Last Chancers as your 'parent' list. 

Thanks Orlanth that sounds pretty good. I want to stick to close combat, 4+ saves, demo charges as much as possible. Commisars sound good too I almost forgot about them.

But…

wight_widow asked the question of the day
“Also, out of curiosity, are you choosing your units primarily to eat points, or are you trying to make a fun or competitive army?”

I have this Bomb harness vision…like real penal troops. Sort of….Potekin from guilty gear…meets….Killzone upper body ½ armor. Now put shave head, Rough penal troop faces on that think Riddick…army.

I need to spend points fast The reason is…the big unspoken no no topic of Casting…not that I’m coping G.W. product more like casing custom /sculpted parts. casting my own Custom penal troop heads, and upper bodies…then fitting that on Guard plastics. Basicly legs and arms …
I’ve got all kinds of custom heads, weapons and bits I’ve made. I’ve got like…70+% success rate but it’s tough to do mass production of things, I can get 10 bodies, heads and misc bits done every 2 days and I have to make several mold to get 1 good “unit” mold.

Nuff of that…needless to say I need to eat points and lastchancers fit the bill perfect. I like the idea of judges and all….the core problem is taking die easy CC guard…needing way too many figs. I want to use imperial rules but not marines. ….maybe scouts but then …no demo charges….it looses all it’s flavor.

Any other ideas???????

and Ghaz I'm not going into a flame trip or whatever and I'm not going to be rude. but your flat out wrong...

Prove it. Prove that an army that has models that are not Last Chancers is indeed an 'all Last Chancers army'.

The only one who's wrong here is you and your 'roolzboyz'.

your a really rude guy Ghaz. thanks for posting you opinion. I don't need any more trolling from you please go away.
Nice bits huh?

Look who's talking about being rude and being a troll. Prove that you're right instead of just saying so. I'm sure your opponents will enjoy playing against an illegal army.

If you didn't want the answer, then why did you even bother to ask in the first place?

Am I being hostile like you Ghaz...man I'm here for ideas and input...and if you can't face a army that is missing 4 of it's slots. then you're not much of a general are you...this stuff is supposed to be fun Ghaz...relax...rules lawyer troll

how bout this Ghaz...
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68287

Heres the same post on warseer lets go debate with more than just myself...and pull your Troll B.S. over there, I dare yeah.
guys like you...nothing positive to say not even an alt suggestion...just negativity. This type of "Fight seeker aggression" make it hard to have a decent post with positive input. and I really don't have to prove a damn thing to you big guy...

Yes, you are being hostile. You ask a question, get an honest answer and totally ignore it because it doesn't suit you. If you didn't want an answer, then why did you even bother to ask? Not only that, you can't even support your position. Try supporting your position instead of crying and acting like a troll.

As for the game supposed to be 'fun', it is never fun when someone cheats, even when the rules have been pointed out. Besidex the fact, we're not playing the game right now, are we? No. we're having a discussion on the rules. At least I'm having a discussion on the rules. All you're doing is crying because you're not getting your way.

And who cares what the discussion on Warseer says. Do you need somebody to come fight your battles for you? Hopefully they have somebody with enough sense (and it seems that there is) to see what the rules actually say, but if they don't, then it doesn't matter one bit. It does not change the rules on iota. You still can not take an ally in an all Last Chancers army.

You're nothing more than a 'play it my way or I'll cry no matter what the rules say' troll. Try reading the How To Have An Intelligent Rules Debate thread before you post again because if you keep on like this, your time at Dakka will probably be very, very short.

Ghaz, Dude... Your really hostile. You posted how YOU see the rules but way more people than you have said "yes... it's legit go for it and by the way nice idea”

Why didn’t you want to take this up on Warseer? Because more folks posted replies leaning toward the “good Idea side” and you’d have more than one guy saying your wrong.

 

Let's see...roolztrollz say yes...

4-5 other guys on warseer and 3 other guys on ordo all say yes....

 

Ghaz gives an aggressive No....

 

10 guys on various forums post Yes...

Ghaz says No....

 

10 guys on various forums post postive things and add Ideas that are Shaping the way I do this, make nice comments about the W.I.Ps....

Ghaz wants to be a rules lawyer and fight...

 

Ok Ghaz...like I said before...Thankyou for your input...you seem to be a smart guy...hey help me out man....give me an idea instead of stepping on my neck Brother.

Maybe instead of just Jumpin down a guys throat add a + spin instead of a - spin .

If you gotta better idea Please by all means share man.

I realize that your perception of the rules is: Chancer can't be a stand alone army and take allies.

I got that and 1 other guy thinks that way too…your not alone, just out voted.

Be a cool guy Ghaz…

Alot of your other post are cool, +… And helpful. Do that here, Uplift a fellow gamer. Or post your – comment and be gone. I’ll take it into consideration when I do my thing….you know. I believe you have good intentions Ghaz so lets just end this…your point is made either add a + or please Be Gone.

but if you hit me with a good idea that would be nice, because really ....thats why I'm here, to Shape and Build

Thankyou

Well, as long as you aren't a sore loser, I wouldn't sweat not having the five guard neccessary for a command platoon. Points sink units are a recipe for a losing army, so as long as you realize that, barring exceptional bad luck or complete unfamiliarity with 40k or any other kind of miniatures or computer battle game on the part of your opponent. Noone minds illegal units, just as long as they consistently lose and the losing player doesn't make a scene. I say go for it, so long as you don't care about winning and have fun during a game by socializing or making jokes with the miniatures rather than tactical gameplay. (nothing wrong with that)

PS - if you ever get tired of losing and want to make a good and legal army based on the IG codex, there are at least two other very experienced guard posters here on dakka who can steer you towards an effective, tactical IG list relatively easily.

Yep who's the other Guard players. I have a guard army with all the tanks and mass troops and this and that old catachan stuff...
I got too many Go for it's and called the Guys who work for G.W. who said Go for it...for me to think it's illegal...
I'm  really not worried about winnin' man i like to play for fun. Besides being the underdog AND winning is the sh!t.
regardless
I can always break up the units and use them in my other imperial armies so it's a no loose situation.

Ok Just in case I called the Roolzboyz One more time…
he said there nothing that says they can not take allies….only they would be the entire guard army…if I was to try and take other thing from the I.G. codex that would illegal, but NO Where does it say this “last chancers may not take allies”
You find line…the line that says I can’t …also “-“ Ghaz and he said Ghaz is reading too much into “You do not have to field a Command Platoon if you field an all Last Chancers army with Col. Schaeffer as its HQ.”

Your right, my I.G. army is 100% last chancers…now show me where I can’t take allies…this line “last chancers may not take allies”

Like the spacemarine – when using doctrines that wouldn’t allow it…a line like that…
See the I.G. army is last chancers…with some allies…
regardless if it’s 200+ men or 20…it’s a stand alone guard army…with allies

Call 1-800-394-GAME and ask they will confirm the lack of rule stating against bringing allies with a guard army…

can we poll this???

Again, you're totally ignoring the fact that you can only dispense with the Command Squad in an 'ALL LAST CHANCERS ARMY'. If you have allies, you do not have an 'ALL LAST CHANCERS ARMY', do you? No. You have a 'LAST CHANCERS ARMY WITH ALLIES'. That does not allow you to dispense with the Command Squad.

All you've done is prove once again that the roolzboyz are useless and unofficial. There words carry no weight whatsoever. Roolzboyz are totally useless. You are as likely to get the correct answer from consulting a Magic 8-Ball.

So once again, try actually supporting your claims instead of saying such and such said so whaen you have absolutely no idea why they said so. Calling 1-800-394-GAME is a waste of time. Why don't YOU answer the question for a change instead of relying on what somebody who may not even play the game is telling you just because it's what you want to hear.

But where does it say I need a command squad to take allies Ghaz..?
page# please.

It's a pure Last chancers guard army with allies...The FAQ states that

"You do not have to use a command platoon if you field an all last chancers army with Col. Schaefer as it's H.Q."

Your taking the words "all last chancers army" and reading Way too much into it Ghaz.
The last chancers army is The I.G. army. with the help of an inquisitor and his group.
what missing here is the words "A last chancers army may not take allies" or "In order to take allies an Imperial guard army must field a command platoon"
why can't I take them do tell?
as a matter of fact I can take 5 priest too...under the Inquisitors H.Q. slot

5deadly:

There is absolutely no defined "last chancers army" in the IG codex. Because of that, the term "all last chancer army" has to be taken by it's dictionary defition: an army made up entirely of Last Chancers. Adding anything else makes it cease to be an all Last Chancers army (as it contains something besides Last Chancers).

Now, Ghaz has been perhaps overly gruff (in his way), but that's only because you started the thread asking if said army was legal.

If you want to ignore the proper argument that Ghaz has presented, I suggest you simply tell him that he is technically correct, but you are going to go ahead and play with it anyway at your own risk.

It's your insistence that he's wrong because of what other people have said that is (I'm guessing here) driving him up the wall.


From a strict logical perspective, the army is illegal. If you want to accept that and build your army anyway, do so, but just accept that many players might have a problem with it.

Yakface is right, the semantics of "All Last Chancer Army" do not leave any room for Allies. The English language doesn't bend for anybody.

But back to the original question of the Penal Company, I personally am seeing a DH Army with an HQ choice of a DH Inquisitor Lord with retinue and 2 Elite slots with Inquisitors for "judges." Then, fill out the mandatory two troop choices with Inquisitional Stormtroopers for Wardens, Prison Enforcers, etc. At this point you can now start inducting. Leave Schaeffer out because as I see him, what would he be doing around people who unquestioningly embrace law and order when he's more of a Film Noir kind of guy. You seem to be rather stuck on the rules behind the Last Chancers for whatever reason instead of looking at alternate ways of pulling this off. In any event, by not taking GKs, you can take the desired Daemonhosts. If you wanted even more psykers, the rules for Sanctioned Psykers in the IG Codex state that they must be attached as advisors first to the CHQ ( Inquisitor Lord, right? ) and then you could start attaching them to your Inq. Storm Troopers, since you don't have any PHQs. Or if that's too much rule bending, take an IG CHQ first, for some FS squads, since any prison complex worth it's salt would have some kind of heavy weapons to mow down cons in the event of a revolt. You could also attach some SW squads to this particular IG CHQ, although the question now would be: can you use units in a DH army that require a doctrine choice in an IG army, when DH specifically forbids use of IG doctrine in inducted IG?

I can see the point of the wording?there is now close to the same amount of people saying Yes as No so I have to consider that this might not be a running legal army?
The positive input and suggestion is nice?
I really wanted to eat a bunch of point and that?s why I?m avoiding basic I.G.

This is the final goal?
A hard hitting CC/city fight geared army, using 4+ save, explosions, flamers, Not too many tanks?.(I have a load of tanks already and can Dip into them for whatever if need be)
But I want the army to take the feel of penal troops who fight hard to survive and have?100s of times.
Hence the Last Chancers,

So I pose this? what Imperial army? CC/city fight geared army, using 4+ save, explosions, flamers, arbites, judges,CC penal troops,
Hit me back guy I am open to suggestions?
The DH army really lacks CC Penal troops. Has all the Judges I could ever want.
Shotgun storm troops are Arbites?

How bout this?.what could I use a penal troops themselves?
I askin? everyone, even you Ghaz?What would make one hell of a penal troop?

I don't play enough to give tactical advise. My forte is knowing the rules, so I'll pass and let the more experienced players answer.

IG Infantry squad with explosive collars and orange jump suits.