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I wasn't sure exactly where to post this, but i figured under army lists may be O.K.  I am looking on some suggestions for a very finesse oriented army to play in 40K.  Currently I play Dark Angels, Thousand Sons, Orks, and a Divergent Codex Chapter based around infiltration.  Now I know all armies have some finesse involved... but I feel with my current armies its less important.  I want an army that you can't make many mistakes with, or that you MUST know exactly when to move of feint with, or you lose.  I've been playing for a good long time now and I feel its time to invest in something new and exciting.  The most promising candidates seem to be Eldar or Guard... but any opinions would be appreciated.

P.S. It's not as important but i also like to consider fun conversion possibilities and fun paint schemes, as I am in this hobby for the whole experience.

Thank you all very much for your time!

Aztralwolf

Eldar and Tau for sure. Dark Eldar and IG are sorta finesse but you can field lots and lots of them so its more a battle of attrition than one of finesse. Tau I think is the most difficult army to play.

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 02/07/2007 5:32 PM
Eldar and Tau for sure. Dark Eldar and IG are sorta finesse but you can field lots and lots of them so its more a battle of attrition than one of finesse. Tau I think is the most difficult army to play.

Quoted for truth.

I'd say Tau is even more finesse than Eldar, or at least certain builds of eldar, as the Eldar have some very tough units at their disposal that can make for forgiving lists.

So, pretty much everything Sazzle said.

Ummmmm. . .Orks man! They're definitely finesse in their own wierd way.



But I would definitely put the fragile assualt armies at the top of the finesse list (DE Raider rush and Ork Kult of Speed).

Played in the wrong hands they die in a giant fireball of death. Played in the right hands they can wipe the opponent off the table in 3 or 4 turns.

Agreed. Tau and Eldar can both be built for durability. Mech Tau have become a very strong tournament army, including at the UK GT. DE Raider and Ork Trukk armies simply can't. Win the manuever battle, assault on your terms, or you die screaming.

Well I already play orks... actually their fluff is that on a world they raided they found a boxed set of three movies... they now worship "The Holy Trilogy" and call themselves the Star WAAAAAGH! I even use sentinals as AT-ST's which are my Killa Kans... and I converted my bikes to look like the speeder bikes from Jedi Still haven't done it but I am going to make an AT-AT from scratch. Also I used to play Tau.... but sold them recently. Honestly I wasn't having fun with Tau since the new codex. I never lost with them... and I'm not saying I enjoy losing, far from it, but I never had those awesome tooth and nail moments that make me love the game. Generally when I played Tau, I started winning on turn one, and never had a moments doubt that my enemy was screwed.I began to feel overpowered and it kinda ruined the gaming sessions for everybody when I played Tau. Then again the guy I sold em to can't play them for crap and gets his butt handed to him when he uses them unless he has a partner. That is why i started thinking an exotic army... 3 that come to mind are Tyranids with like 6 carni's... or Iyanden Eldar, or IG armoured company. Lotsa big boys in a Nid army would be a challenge... slow creatures taking most of my points requiring me to really get good maneuvering the few little guys on the board. Same kinda principle with Iyanden eldar... all those expensive wraithguard and wraithlords making me have to learn how to really make my few guardians and aspect warriors go the distance. Or in the case of Armoured company I thought about using lotsa Chimera's with crush and grind etc to tank shock my foes into clusters to make them easy prey for battle cannons. Honestly all of this really came about because of a buddy who plays a divergent codex heavy on dreads and assault weapons. He usually fields like a pair of razorbacks with 6 guys each, and 1 dread, then drop pods EVERYTHING else in. He has mastered gumming up LOS for opponents and knows just where to drop his guys to the utmost effect. Heck I have seen him expose back armor on a razorback just so it gets blown up and becomes cover, or a block in a choke point when HE wants it to.
Sorry about the long post.....
Aztralwolf

"Tyranids with like 6 carni's... or Iyanden Eldar, or IG armoured company"

Given your previous problems, this seems odd. Overly specialized armies tend to be very dull for everyone involved.

That's why I've pretty much said no to the 'nids army.... Iyanden is something I have always held a fondness for... guess partially cause I love good story line and the skin of my teeth feel of Iyanden is appealing.  And I wouldn't just go... 3 man squads of guard and 3 lords with a few other things thrown in... I would try to diversify and give them more of a custom feel.  And with the armoured company I would use lotsa armoured fist squads with flamer chimera's and storm troopers in the same kinda chimera to basically "herd" my opponent for the few battle cannons I would have on the board.  But I also came looking for any ideas people can throw my way.  Guess I kinda wanna prove those whiny guys wrong that try to tell me I only win cause I play marines and marines don't lose... they never seem to realize all armies lose, I would just like to prove to myself and others that I can play a truly graceful army.  Cause if I beat the crap out of them with an army with little or no saves better then a 5+ they might just stop their griping hehe.

Iron Warriors. A very hard army to play. The thinking man's marines.

Posted By fourganger88 on 02/08/2007 7:42 AM
Iron Warriors. A very hard army to play. The thinking man's marines.

Is that supposed to be a joke?

Aztralwolf.... what was your tau list? I wonder if its you or your enviroment thats the issue. My original group of players didn't like any army I played even my tau, even though they suggested it. As it turns out I learned I was just better.... (much much better)

I've always enjoyed playing against sisters of battle. I like playing against orks, but not any of the specialized lists. I don't enjoy playing against tyranids or dark elves, I do like playing against space marines but not the skimmer/dread/terminator lists aka assault cannon sadness. And I've always enjoyed playing against eldar. Tau wasn't much fun to play against simply because I've never even come close to losing against, eldar vs tau or tau vs tau, but when I played tau vs eldar... man thats so tough. I hate armored company, its (insert 2 4 letter words, 1 7 letter word, and suxors) I like playing against IG. Just some food for thought, most of my play experience is me playing tau or eldar. But some of the most fun lists to play against are theones that are the least cookie cutter like.

I think that the trick to finding a finess army is to choose one that doesn't specialize; one that has multiple possible avenues to victory. That way you have to think hard throughout the game, and stay on your toes. Eldar seem like a classic example of this to me, as the best Eldar lists seem to me to be rather unspecialized (though they do tend to have a lot of skimmers). A bit of tank-hunting, some assault troops, some dakka, etc.

Posted By whitedragon on 02/08/2007 9:17 AM

Posted By fourganger88 on 02/08/2007 7:42 AM
Iron Warriors. A very hard army to play. The thinking man's marines.

Is that supposed to be a joke?

Yes. Next time I'll use a smiley.

Try an eldar infantry army or dark eldar army. Both are prety challenging.

I am currently playing an eldar infantry army, closest thing to a vehicle i have are warwalkers and frankly I don't think they count.

Dire Avengers seem to be one of the best finesse units I have played with, since they have so many different tactics they can use and you have to figure out which will be the most effective against the army in question, I find the same true for the Swooping Hawks. However many of the other units I am using don't have much finnesse involved, pathfinders with a farseer, is not what I would call finesse just damn tough, wraith guard are not finesse either.

Straight GK's are very tricky. Very unforgiving if you make a wrong play even with a single unit because you are always greatly outnumbered. You have to be cautious but not overly so. When I lose with mine I either assualt one turn to soon or one turn to late. Most new GK players never figure them out because thier abilities and equipment tend to make them look good for the assault game. I have found you need to maximize shroudings ability as long as possible and either take a charge or counter charge when opponent gets in range. You usually have no room for error in your list construction either and your anti-armor capabilities are extremely valuable. Tricky army and very challenging to master.

My Tau consisted of 2 Railheads, 3 Broadsides, 6 full warrior squads, 5 crisis and 1 crisis commander, and 2 full stealth squads.  Basically i just set all the big suits up to have the leader target different squads/vehicles... used the stealth suits to harass squads that i felt needed it and as long as I had their long range weaponry under control I let them come to the firing line of warriors if they dared!  I beat a dark eldar army on turn 1 once.... boy was that guy ticked off.  Destroyed half the army and sent the other half running away.  As far as the skill of my game group goes only 1-2 of the guys in it are my tactical equal.  The other guys need alotta work   As far as GK goes im not gonna only cause I already have 2 marine armies.... yeah GK has alotta differances but in the end I'm tired of power armour   I'd say no to dark eldar as well... primarily because they REALLY need a new codex.  So in the end the options i guess I am really left with are Eldar, 'Nids, IG, or Necrons.  Cause I already play Marines, Chaos, and Orks.
Aztralwolf

I think a finesse army really has to incorporate one major element: maneuver. With a maneuver army, you've got to expect to be outnumbered, outgunned, and out-assaulted, when the army is compared to another army "in total". The trick to making a maneuver army work is to use your maneuverability to create situations where you have local superiority.

You might want to consider a Witch Hunters army. If you go heavy on the Inquisitorial elements (HQ Inquisitor, Penitant Engines, Land Raider), you might find that to be a challenge. In the brief time I entertained the idea, I found that it was a very fragile army with some very interesting challenges.

Good luck!

Yeah but the guy I play against most plays Witch Hunters... I always dug the nuns with guns too, but a whole lotta WH vs. WH would get kinda boring lol, and around where live there are no places to game... not anymore anyway they either stopped dealing in 40k or closed down   If i wanna play in a nice store for tourney's or anything I gotta drive over an hour, or all the way to Philadelphia.
Aztralwolf

since everyone's whining about the the new Deathwing rules, arguably they're the ultimate finesse army at the moment

Well I have decided between either Eldar or Imperial Guard... I just can't make the final decision.  I have been looking through both codex's for the past 2 days, and I see so many possibilities.  For about an hour I tried to figure out a way to swing both armies!   But seeing as both are rather pricey armies, and I'd rather be able to focus on building an painting one... that idea was sent right out the window.  Both armies have something in them that lured me into 40K in the first place.  Eldar Harlequins made me drool back when I was just being lured in, and the Leman Russ which also made me drool.  Any other final advice from you guys would be MUCH MUCH appreciated.  If I played Eldar I would be going with an army heavy on guardians w/ platforms, and dire avengers.  I would use an aspect or two other then the avengers, and back it up with a Wraithlord and some Walkers.  Oh and of course Vypers, and Wave Serpents for some of my choices.  (Harlequins would be a future go, as I would want time to plan the conversions).  If I did guard I would be going with a weird kinda Armoured Company.  I would max out my fast attack and likely my elites as well with Storm Troopers in chimera's and armoured fist squads.  I would give them things like crush and grind doctrine, and mount flamers on the vehicles.  The few Leman Russ' would be used to pick off big clusters of guys after I tank shocked them into tight clusters with the Chimera's.  I feel both will offer me alotta finesse as the eldar would be plenty of feints and hit and run tactics, while the guard would be based on quick angry strikes with all the chimera's and proper deployment of the squads within the chimera's to apply even more pressure on my foe.
Aztralwolf

The best finess list is a Biel-Tan aspect warrior army. Take one of every aspect warrior squad plus HQ and HS to round off.

Well I already said how I would build Eldar if I did them, Biel-Tan doesn't really appeal to me.
Aztralwolf

As far as an AC guard style army goes, what you're wanting to do would be better suited in a Mechanized Army. The main purpose of the AC list is to get lots of Russes. a mech list for you could look something like this:
HQ-mounted
2 or more mounted grenadier squads
1-3 mounted vets. (vets are better than st.)
1-3 Russes/bassies
and hellhounds if you want them.

Yeah I was looking at that in the codex.  But I would rather be able to take the AC doctrines like crush and grind the possibly kill with tank shock, not to mention the juicy things like forge crafted, and the expert sponson gunners and all those cool things.
Aztralwolf

If you decide to go the AC way, don't put too much into inf/chimeras. They will present your enemy with a target for low strength weapons. With all AV14, anything under S8 won't touch the front of your tanks, but if you have T3 infantry, bolters are now effective.

If you are even considering AC vs Eldar, your choice is already made. AC is about the least fun to play against of anything I have played against. And if you need guardians.. come talk to me.

Well my mind isn't made up yet Saz... but if I do AC it's not going to be a bring 12 Russ' to the table game.  I would make it a tank shock army, use crush and grind to tank shock enemies to death, and hit 'em with the ordinance once they have clumped up from the shocks.  Plus along the way I will deposit the men inside the chimera's into cover so they can fire rocket's and grenade's as support.  It might end up not being the most successful army... but heck I'm here for the fun more then anything!
Aztralwolf

Well, I think my mind is rather made up.  I am about 95% sure I am gonna go with Eldar, though a small part of me is still looking back to something like Tyranids.  I am not a big tournament guy, so I am not worried about having the super uber competitive army... I am in this for the fun.  So suggestions for a NON cookie cutter eldar army would be appreciated.  And remember just cause I don't want a cookie cutter doesn't mean I wanna slap a piece of crap together either.  Also since a small bit of me still likes the idea of 'Nids I would love a couple suggestions on ways to make them very finesse and some ideas on things most people won't try to utilize in their armies.
Aztralwolf