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Heading to the GT in Vegas this year, I need some tips to fine tune this list:

Autarch (bike, lance, mandi-blasters, reaper launcher) = 155pts.

3 Guardian Jetbikes with cannon   #1 = 76pts.

3 Guardian Jetbikes with cannon   #2 = 76pts.                                               

6 Fire Dragons (Exarch with flamer) = 108pts.                                               

6 Banshees = 96pts.                                                                                  

6 Harlequins (5 kisses, Shadowseer, Leader with
powersword, 2 fusion pistols) = 198pts.

4 Shining Spears with Exarch #1 = 152pts.

4 Shining Spears with Exarch #2 = 152pts.                                                    

5 Swooping Hawks (Exarch, sunrifle, skyleap, intercept) = 152pts.

Falcon #1 (cannon x 2, vectored engines, field, stones) = 195pts.

Falcon #2 (as above) = 195pts.                                                                   

Falcon #3 (as above) = 195pts.                                                                 



11 scoring units, grand total of 1750 points.  Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

I plan to intend a GT with a similar list - Saim Hann feeling.
Two SS squads are a bit much.
I never used Swooking Hawks. 5 are not enough (on average) to take down a Monolith. But I admit that they are good vs. Hordes.
I opt for a squad of Pathfinders dropping one squad of SS.

Finally, the reaper launcher is only worth it if the Autarch has enough time (rounds) to use it.

Call me old-fashioned, but I'd never make a serious list with under 10% in Troops. Unless there was some special theme or really interesting and unusual concept. This list doesn't have one.

I do like most of it, but minimal troops and as many Falcons as you can cram in just screams "lack of imagination". I recognize that this is all over the internet right now, but that doesn't mean people should actually build these lists in earnest and use them at real tournaments against unsuspecting strangers.

I'd drop one Falcon and the Banshees for a squad of Dire Avengers in a Wave Serpent. This keeps your speed theme but reduces the duplicate unit overload. You can even trim a little from other units to give them an Exarch and Bladestorm. Maybe drop the Shadowseer from the Harlies (if they're in a tank they don't really need him), or the naked Exarchs from the Shining Spear squads. Shining Spears really only need an Exarch to get Hit & Run (though that's awesome if you can find the points).

That's why I love Adepticon so much. The scenarios there rarely have any VP conditions. There are usually 3 tiers of objective based victory conditions. VP denail lists have a very hard time in that setting. We see VP denial lists like this from first timers and then no more. It is a much more effective deterrent to these lists than comp or sportsmanship scoring. Players can whine about their comp scores, but they can't whine when their list lacks the tactical flexibility to accomplish all the objectives. Problem solved.

I'm attending for the first time this year. Really looking forward to it.

Its not only a victory denial list (Falcons). This army has a very hard punch, in particular, Harlies and SS can take on 'everything that's alive'.

First, I'd like to thank everyone for replying.  This list is still very much a WIP, so your comments are greatly appreciated.

Wuestenfux:  I took the hawks for their skyleap ability; they can dive bomb the enemy all game without being exposed to return fire.  With intercept they can threaten any vehicle in the game, but its true that they don't stand a very good chance of bringing down a monolith.  If I face one I'm hoping I can ignore it and win on objectives.  As for the spears vs. pathfinders I'm trying to keep everything mobile.  I needed more assault power in this list and with my 3 elite slots taken up the spears were the best option.  I gave the Autarch the reaper launcher so he can do something to the enemy for a few turns before I send him in with the assault troops.  Can you post your list?  I'd like to see what you're planning on running.

Mannahnin:  You're old fashioned   Seriously though,  the three falcon list is everywhere right now because its one of the most effective units in the game.  I gave the spears exarchs for the extra attack, a bargain for 12 points.  I agree with you that hit and run would be ideal, but I just can't find 50 points to shave off this list.  I'll just have to be very careful about choosing when and where to assault.  The harlies have the seer for the grenades, nothing more.  I might consider dropping the banshees and falcon for the dire avengers as you suggested, my list is lacking in anti-horde and shooting in general.  As the list stands right now I do pay a huge price for the 2 min. troops selections; there's only 41 models in my whole army.

DarthDiggler:  You're right.  I would not bring this list to Adepticon.


Thanks again one and all.

Ok, here is the latest version of my list., with a few points over the limit (but 13 scoring units):

Autarch w/ jetbike, laserlance, mandiblaster - 130

5 Harlies + 1 Shadowseer w/ kiss(x6) - 162

6 Fire Dragons - 96

6 Banshees - 96

5 Pathfinders - 120

5 Pathfinders - 120

3 Jetbikes w/ shuricannon - 76

3 Jetbikes w/ shuricannon - 76

2 Shining Spears + 1 Exarch w/ skilled rider - 127

1 Vyper w/ shuricannon, scatterlaser - 70

1 Vyper squadron w/ shuricannon, scatterlaser - 70

1 Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, stones, vect engines, holofield - 205

1 Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, stones, vect engines, holofield - 205

1 Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, stones, vect engines, holofield - 205

Snowcrash & Wuestenfux you two must live in the same area. For its points Warwalkers deliver to most bang for the buck, but Falcons deliver the most durability. Both of you choose some poor squads to use, swooping hawks or vypers. Neither does much and both are easily vaporized. In Reserve missions you're banshees and firedragons are worthless until the falcons come in. The 130pt Autarch looks good, I tried him out at the 155pt level and found that I never fired the reaper launcher, otherwise he's a beast. I might run one unit of shining spears, they are fragile due to their small unit size and expense. Pathfinders are Meh, and guardian jetbikes that have no purpose are doubly meh. Adding a spearlok, contributes greatly to the value of the guardian jetbikes, by giving that warlock destructor now that squad is a menance to any unit in the game (other than units with 2+ armor save) i guess the minimalist approach is ok, if you just want to use them as the obligatory fast moving scoring unit. I also would not field harlequins without a farseer giving them fortune, it makes them entirely too fragile. I've tried the dire avengers in a wave serpent... surprisingly its better than you might think, I'm generally opposed to one dimensional squads but i was pretty happy combining 32 bolter shots and having my banshees assault the weakened khorne beserker squad and thx to fortune, after wiping htem out and massacreing into a 2nd beserker squad they survived the next turns attacks (rerolling 4+ is amazing)
I do like the synergy aspect thats encouraged with the new eldar codex, sadly most units got their front teeth knocked out all the same. Right now I'd say that Snowcrashes list is stronger for tournament play.. the shining spears might... might do enough damage to score decent vps. The falcons and everything else that can't rip thru marine armor are basically points denial units. I plan to also visit the LV GT, with my eldar. Falcons aren't aggressive enough... no until you spent 215pts on them and have a guiding farseer nearby. I like the fire prism.. one anyhow. Wraithlords look interesting too.

Posted By Snowcrash on 02/11/2007 4:09 PM
Mannahnin:  You're old fashioned   Seriously though,  the three falcon list is everywhere right now because its one of the most effective units in the game.  I gave the spears exarchs for the extra attack, a bargain for 12 points.  I agree with you that hit and run would be ideal, but I just can't find 50 points to shave off this list.  I'll just have to be very careful about choosing when and where to assault.  The harlies have the seer for the grenades, nothing more.  I might consider dropping the banshees and falcon for the dire avengers as you suggested, my list is lacking in anti-horde and shooting in general.  As the list stands right now I do pay a huge price for the 2 min. troops selections; there's only 41 models in my whole army.

But it’s so DULL, and I’m not convinced it’s effective in all circumstances.  Against many opponents you’re going to spend half the game Shaken, and as you noted, you pay in model count.

 

I like your revised list's scoring unit count though, and I appreciate that you’ve fit in a few more Troops.  If you really want to use the revised list, I’d say drop the sixth Fire Dragon to get under points.  They don’t lose much effectiveness that way, and anyone shooting them is going to devote the effort to wipe them out, not just kill three models and leave them scoring. 

 

If you’re willing to make the list a little more interesting and beef up your model count, I’d say drop a Falcon and the Banshees for the Dire Avengers in Serpent I suggested previously.  I’d also seriously consider swapping the Pathfinders for Dire Avengers.  You lose out a bit on range but add ten more models, and they’re actually mobile.   They would also combo very well with a Doomseer.  A Farseer on foot with Fortune and Doom (like the one I have run around with 10 Harlies) is around 130.  You could pay around the same for just Doom and a Jetbike, maybe add a Singing Spear and he's simultaneously another anti-tank element.   You could swap out the Vypers; it sucks to lose the scoring units, but Vypers are really fragile.  Doom + Dire Avengers (or Banshees) = lots of dead guys, even MEQs.

Snowcrash@

I like your list. However, it has very limited anti-horde capabilities. The speed of the army will help you to pick your fights.

You could increase shooting by take 2 squads of 3 Shining Spears such that each Exarch has a shuricannon. That's a fine weapon because of the Exarch's BS.

The Harlies don't need a Troupe Leader and no fusion pistols.

I opt to drop the FD Exarch as the FDs should go after tanks. Consider to drop him.





Sazzlefrats@

We don't live in the same area. Lol
However, our armies are focussed on Falcons. The GT I'm attending has no escalation games. So their mounted squads are safe.

Pathfinders I find useful. Their rifles are awesome, and they can block infiltrators threatening the precious Falcons (if they get 1st turn).

Jetbikes are partly useful. E.g., taking objectives or adding a Spearlock. I seriously think about the latter.

Dire Avengers? Well, I playtested them (in a Serpent of course) but once they disembarked they hardly can stand the return fire.

Farseer? Two HQs is too much.

Prisms? Then you need 2 of them. But this severely changes list, tactics, and playing style. Same for Warwalkers or Wraithlord.

Its interesting that you favor Snowcrash's list. I think about it....


Mannahnin@

Falcons equipped with scatter laser and shuricannon have 9 shots of S6 or higher. That's amazing.

You're right about the Fire Dragons, five is fine.

The revised list is actually my list. But I appreciate very much that you like it.

See my above remarks on Dire Avengers and Farseer.

Vypers? You're right, I should replace them. But what to take?

Not so amazing when you roll like I do.

I finally fielded two Falcons for the first time since the codex came out last night. Championship game for my local league, against Jamie Hatcher's generally amazing Death Guard. I managed the win in Alpha Take & Hold with one Falcon and a D-Cannon left alive, and one fleeing Fire Dragon. He had a character and a terminator or two. Tight game.

I love my Farseer, even though he does occasionally blow his own head up (did so on the first spell of the game in both the Championship game last night and in my semifinal match).

As for what to replace the Vypers with, you could go a couple of ways. You could buy another jetbike squad with an embolden spearlock. Or you could just buy two embolden spearlocks for the two jebike squads you have, and a fourth shining spear to round out the unit.

Another very competitive (and cheaper) alternative to the third Falcon would be Vibrocannons. They're just excellent now, and particularly useful against other mech skimmer armies.

Congrats to the win. Its really unsusal that you lost your Farseer so early on the game.

In view of the Vypers, you are right, embolden Spearlocks leading the Jetbike squads are a solid choice. In particular, small Jetbike squads can be viewed as Vypers with CTM thanks to the Eldar Jetbike rules.

I never used Vibrocannons. Good thought. I will think about it, possibly playtesting them.

They were very strong against me in my semifinal matchup against another Eldar player (in which my Farseer also blew his own head up on turn 1, but that was due to Eldrad's Runes of Warding). Flavius has been singing their praises for about a month now as well. A squad of 2 or 3 is just excellent against enemy skimmers and is fairly cheap, allowing you to squeeze in another unit.

Now I adapted my list in the direction of Snowcrash' list:

Autarch w/ laser lance, bike, mandiblaster, reaper launcher - 155 pts

 

5 Harlequins + 1 Shadowseer w/ kiss (x6) -  162 pts

 

6 Banshees -  96 pts

 

5 Fire Dragons - 80 pts         

 

5 Pathfinders – 120 pts

 

5 Pathfinders – 120 pts

 

3 Jetbikes w/ shuricannon + 1 Warlock w/ singing spear, destructor – 134 pts

 

2 Shining Spears + 1 Exarch w/ shuricannon – 132 pts

 

2 Shining Spears + 1 Exarch w/ shuricannon – 132 pts

 

Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, holofield, spirit stones, vector engines - 205 pts

 

Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, holofield, spirit stones, vector engines - 205 pts

 

Falcon w/ scatterlaser, shuricannon, holofield, spirit stones, vector engines - 205 pts

 

Total:  1746 pts. Models: 38 + 3.

Isn't the reaper laucnher a move or shoot weapon? if so why put it on the autarch? The list is looking better. Consider tossing a ranger squad to up the two shining spear squads to 3 +1exarch (4 models a peice). Now the enemy must kill 3 of 4 to prevent them from being scoring units, you gain resilency, and more str6 power weapon attacks. Also add withdraw and now they can leave any combat that becomes sticky (and therefore a bad thing since they lose their power weapon status after the charge) once you toss the reaper launcher you gain another firedragon. Which sadly givesyou a total of 13pts left to spend, but it would take 14pts to upgrade the rangers to another jetbike spearlok squad. I wonder how many points star engines are those would work well in this list too.

Sazzlefrats@
Nice idea to beef up the Shining Spears. I'll think about it...

In view of the reaper launcher, a bike is a heavy weapon platform (like Terminators) and can shoot heavy weapons even when it moves.

If the reaper launcher was mounted to the bike I would agree with you. I think for weapons that are carried by the rider that rules does not apply? (Clearly I am not quoting the book, just trying to remember these frickin rules)

Regardless of that, this list is still inferior to Godzilla Nids, you just aren't going to hurt the big bugs and if you were to clear out enough little bugs you won't have enough game time to do enough damage to the big bugs. (I tend to think of winning by wiping my opponent out not minor wins)

Posted By Sazzlefrats on 02/16/2007 2:00 PM
If the reaper launcher was mounted to the bike I would agree with you. I think for weapons that are carried by the rider that rules does not apply? (Clearly I am not quoting the book, just trying to remember these frickin rules)

You are correct re: Rapid Fire weapons, but for heavy weapons there is no requirment that they be mounted to the bike.  He can move and fire a Reaper.   I'm not convinced it's the best way to go (turboboosting or assaulting would seem to be the two things he should be doing most turns), but it could be worthwhile.

Today, I played a tourney with the above list: 1500 pts only.
And I won it. First game vs. 13th Co in a cleanse mission, almost annihilated him up to WL Biker and a few Bikers. Mobility, firepower, and cc capabilities of this army are amazing. Second game vs Blood Angels on city terrain board, recon. Harlies and Dragons took down most of the 12 men DC while the Falcons mowed down two Assault squads. Autarch charged shooty squads with Spears. Dread was vaporized by pulse lasers. Another massacre. Last game, Armoured Company, gave up early... Cheers!

congrats on the win.

I agree with Mannahnin and Sazzlefrats: buff the Spears and possibly re-think the HQ selection. There are better HQ builds for 155 that complement your force. Your points may be shaved by using bikes for troops rather than the pathfinders.

Again, the question is - how does this list deal with Godzilla Nids and Droppod Marines?

A Gozilla list is not a big problem, as I have lots of S6 weapons and my list is very mobile able to outmaneuver slow MCs. The Shining Spears can take down a wounded Carnifex, and the Harlies and Dragons can take on every MC.
However, I fear a Nids list with lots of fast moving small bugs (Gaunts) as they threaten my Bikers.

A drop podded list is another issue. The Falcons are immune while the Bikers are in danger. This requires good deployment and maneuvering. Drop podded armies are immobile as soon as they have landed. My list can take advantage of this.