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Several posts deleted and or warnings sent. If you cannot contribute without flaming or insulting other users then it's best you don't post.

I will admit that to my eyes one side tends to be more dismissive of reality than the other....

But the other tends to be more vitriolic - while pointing out real problems they also tend to drip acid like a member of the Swarm.

Then the first side tends to dismiss them and every one that agrees with them.

And... I will admit that I lean more towards the Hatters in most discussions. GW has been more than a bit daft for a while.

The Auld Grump

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
A brief review/comparison of two comparable minis
Necron Lord, Games Workshop
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Resin (aka Finecast), model felt extremely flimsy, very worried to work with
Complexity: Minimal, three parts
Flash/Mold lines: Heavy mold lines, ridiculous amounts of flash. Most of assembly time is stripping the flash very very carefully.
Conversion potential: Low, without excessive work/delicacy, did manage a small weapons conversion but it felt very touch and go.
Note: Model is very weak, war staff snapped off during assembly even with best efforts for delicacy (and I've assembled 2k worth of Imperial Guard), slot attachment for the base came lose from the lord's foot as I was inserting it into the infantry base
Over all impression of quality: Poor

Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games
Kit type: Monopose Infantry model (HQ/Hero)
Material: Injection molded plastic, nice and sturdy feel to materials
Complexity: Some very small pieces, assemble and de sprue with caution or you will lose your mind (oh groin armor where are't thou?) it also took me a minute to figure out where the rifle butt stock went...
Flash/Mold lines: No flash, minimal mold lines
Conversion potential: High, model feels solid and has incredible detail
Over all impression of quality: High

A google search of "Hauptmann Ada, Eisenkern (Iron Core), Dreamforge Games" doesn't bring up anything. What exactly are you referring to?

EDIT: Oh holy crap that's a lot larger than my monitor was displaying it as. Spoiler'd.

Basically, she was a special model for Kickstarter supporters.

It's a subjective verdicht. I consider the Necron Lord's model to be far superior to the sergeant, especially regarding the amount of details and overall quality. And I don't see why it's hard to make conversions with finecast models either...

 Laughing Man wrote:

Spoiler:

EDIT: Oh holy crap that's a lot larger than my monitor was displaying it as. Spoiler'd.

Basically, she was a special model for Kickstarter supporters.

That thing looks like an Elizabethan dandy holding a high-powered sexual aide. I'm not surprised it's cheaper than GW.

The bashing of non GW stuff gets old. Dream forge has delivered big time, they communicate with their customers
And the people look quite pleased with what they got.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/503411.page

GW acts like a delusional dictator that believes their own cult of personality

GW bashing for the sake of GW bashing gets old as well....Dream Forge makes a nice product....it is no where NEAR as heavily detailed as most GW plastics and more relevant to this thread no where near as detailed as the necron model.

Which model you think LOOKS better is entirely subjective, which model is superior in terms of detail an quality of said detail is not. GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

No offense, but if you are American, odds are it's not the pricing policy but your economy in general.

As far as I know, wage raises in many American states haven't matched year-on-year inflation since '08. Weak capital inflows, artificial interest rates and quantitative easing are gradually causing you to lose buying power. I'd wager if you did a cost breakdown, you'd notice everything (not just miniatures) is less affordable.

Tyranidfreek01 wrote:
No offense, but if you are American, odds are it's not the pricing policy but your economy in general.

As far as I know, wage raises in many American states haven't matched year-on-year inflation since '08. Weak capital inflows, artificial interest rates and quantitative easing are gradually causing you to lose buying power. I'd wager if you did a cost breakdown, you'd notice everything (not just miniatures) is less affordable.

Im self employed in the states and i have NO issue spending my "self" portion of my budget on GW items and find it satisfying. I am not above the 99% line AND Im still in college. i work a full time job as well. Maybe it isnt about what GW is charging as opposed to what people are trying to spend.

Tyranidfreek01 wrote:
No offense, but if you are American, odds are it's not the pricing policy but your economy in general.

As far as I know, wage raises in many American states haven't matched year-on-year inflation since '08. Weak capital inflows, artificial interest rates and quantitative easing are gradually causing you to lose buying power. I'd wager if you did a cost breakdown, you'd notice everything (not just miniatures) is less affordable.

+1 on this.

You are the first person that I have ever heard comment on something that I've been posting here on and off for 2 years.
Wages in the US have not been able to keep up with inflation. You are the first person that even mentioned Quantitative easing and the effects.

What happened in Japan has happened in the US. The lost generation. And unfortunately for many people, they have short memory spans and do not realize that 2006 was perhaps their last and best opportunity for the average American to achieve a certain aspect of prosperity for a long long time.

Orktavius wrote:
GW bashing for the sake of GW bashing gets old as well....Dream Forge makes a nice product....it is no where NEAR as heavily detailed as most GW plastics and more relevant to this thread no where near as detailed as the necron model.

Which model you think LOOKS better is entirely subjective, which model is superior in terms of detail an quality of said detail is not. GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

Actually I'd say GW did have the best sculpts, now they are mealy on par with Perry Miniatures/Dreamforge/Warlord Games/etc but they still charge like they are putting out the best of the best. They might have the most bling on their models but that is different from detail.
Then there are companies like Nocturna that make MUCH more detailed singles out of real resin and still charge less than GW does for it's finecast characters.

Aesthetics aside GW are actually pretty lazy when it comes to detail.

The economy here in the states does have something to do with the overall availability of all luxury products, such as miniatures. Personally, I'm in a similar situation to Atropus: Attending University and working part time. I have no issue buying into my hobbies, but the fact that getting into games other than Warhammer with arguably similar 'fun-values', as I like to call them, is becoming more and more reasonable is what bites me. I recently started getting into Warmachine and Bolt Action, both subjectively fun to me, for around what it would cost to get the beginnings of a decent 40k army. There are other games out there that are enjoyable, but if people find Warhammer enjoyable enough to rationalize the cost of their lines, what's to tell them they are wrong?

The fact that GW sees fit to increase it's prices beyond yearly inflation is what puzzles me, especially when the use it as a defense to doing it in the first place!

The reason GW keeps prices high, as far as I see it, are as follows:

1) A combination of high CAC (customer acquisition costs) combined with very low churn rates. In any business model where repeat customers provide the bulk of sales, but the cost / time to acquire new customers is high (higher cost = fewer people willing to start), a standard response is to raise profitability via product price first.

In such business models (luxury products, usually), it's assumed that demand will always outstrip purchasing power. For example: A lot of people want a Porsche or a Hermes handbag. What stops them from buying isn't a lack of desire, but a lack of purchasing power.

We could say the average Warhammer player *desires* almost every GW product. (Let's face it, if I asked you to jog 8km to get a free 5,000 point army, more than half of you would be lacing up your sneakers already). The only thing that stops us is cost. As such, it makes sense to push the price to the limits of our purchasing power, because we will buy as much as we can, whatever the price is.

In short, asking GW to lower product price is like a crackhead asking his dealer "Why your drugs gotta cost so much, man?"


2) GW's target demographics are not poor. And put the knife down already.

Look, poor people don't play GW games, okay? In fact, most people from poorer demographics do not, as a general rule, enjoy our middle to upper-middle class strategy games. It's an appalling generalization, but for the most part its true.

Those kids hanging out in the parking lot of the "projects" (or whatever your equivalent is) aren't getting worked up over why Tyranids have no assault grenades. Nor, I suspect, are most of them reading Horus Heresy novels for fun. So GW doesn't really care if those people can afford it, because they aren't into it anyway. The people who are into it CAN afford it, as the low churn rate proves.

3) Shareholders > Stakeholders

GW is one of those companies that cares about shareholders more than stakeholders. Now, shareholders don't give much of a rat's ass if GW closes tomorrow, so long as they make their buck. When I buy a stock in something, I couldn't care less whether the product is good, bad, or stolen and redistributed via Somali pirates. I care about a rising sell price.

And high profit = higher stock values for a certain time. It may be unsustainable, but I don't give a crap about the resulting collapse, because I'd have sold by then.

I'm not accusing GW staff of thinking this way; in fact, quite the opposite. I suspect a constant tug-of-war between the GW people who care, and the shareholders.

4) It just looks like it's going up too fast

If the fried chicken stand sells wings for $1 apiece, and tomorrow it cost s$1.20, you'd shrug it off. If GW sells a Hive Tyrant for $75, and then one day it's $90, you'd freak. But check the percentages there.

Yes, the prices are going up. I'm just saying the prices aren't going up *waaaaay* faster than anything else. It's just overblown because we want GW stuff all the time, we hyperfocus on every little price increase.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for them here, just my guess on why it all happens. And don't worry: Once sales drop off (as they will due to affordability), prices will moderate. Nothing can go up in price forever.

Tyranidfreek01 wrote:
We could say the average Warhammer player *desires* almost every GW product. (Let's face it, if I asked you to jog 8km to get a free 5,000 point army, more than half of you would be lacing up your sneakers already). The only thing that stops us is cost. As such, it makes sense to push the price to the limits of our purchasing power, because we will buy as much as we can, whatever the price is.

I don't entirely agree with that, many may desire the product and it's just a case of waiting until they've saved up for it, but there must also be a statistically significant (and increasing) proportion of customers who like the prices but can't justify the price (like me).

Your 8k for 5000pts army is a bit skewed too, assuming it takes an hour to run 8k, or even 2 (we're not as fit as we'd like to think), the reward for the run would far outweigh the reward for spending the time elsewhere (if I spent those 2 hours at work I could buy a tactical squad worth ~200pts), so I'd be getting 25x more value from the jog and it'd be worthwhile. I still wouldn't pay the asking price if I had the money though. The cost of any 5k point WHF/40K army would get me a decent army for every game my local gaming group plays with enough left over for a new car.

Tyranidfreek01 wrote:
The reason GW keeps prices high, as far as I see it, are as follows:

1) A combination of high CAC (customer acquisition costs) combined with very low churn rates. In any business model where repeat customers provide the bulk of sales, but the cost / time to acquire new customers is high (higher cost = fewer people willing to start), a standard response is to raise profitability via product price first.

In such business models (luxury products, usually), it's assumed that demand will always outstrip purchasing power. For example: A lot of people want a Porsche or a Hermes handbag. What stops them from buying isn't a lack of desire, but a lack of purchasing power.

We could say the average Warhammer player *desires* almost every GW product. (Let's face it, if I asked you to jog 8km to get a free 5,000 point army, more than half of you would be lacing up your sneakers already). The only thing that stops us is cost. As such, it makes sense to push the price to the limits of our purchasing power, because we will buy as much as we can, whatever the price is.

In short, asking GW to lower product price is like a crackhead asking his dealer "Why your drugs gotta cost so much, man?"


2) GW's target demographics are not poor. And put the knife down already.

Look, poor people don't play GW games, okay? In fact, most people from poorer demographics do not, as a general rule, enjoy our middle to upper-middle class strategy games. It's an appalling generalization, but for the most part its true.

Those kids hanging out in the parking lot of the "projects" (or whatever your equivalent is) aren't getting worked up over why Tyranids have no assault grenades. Nor, I suspect, are most of them reading Horus Heresy novels for fun. So GW doesn't really care if those people can afford it, because they aren't into it anyway. The people who are into it CAN afford it, as the low churn rate proves.

I see where you're coming from, but I respectfully disagree. Well, I don't completely disagree, but as far as I'm aware, we have no hard evidence one way or the other, only anecdotal experience which varies from location to location and person to person.

3) Shareholders > Stakeholders

GW is one of those companies that cares about shareholders more than stakeholders. Now, shareholders don't give much of a rat's ass if GW closes tomorrow, so long as they make their buck. When I buy a stock in something, I couldn't care less whether the product is good, bad, or stolen and redistributed via Somali pirates. I care about a rising sell price.

And high profit = higher stock values for a certain time. It may be unsustainable, but I don't give a crap about the resulting collapse, because I'd have sold by then.

I'm not accusing GW staff of thinking this way; in fact, quite the opposite. I suspect a constant tug-of-war between the GW people who care, and the shareholders.

I agree with that.

4) It just looks like it's going up too fast

If the fried chicken stand sells wings for $1 apiece, and tomorrow it cost s$1.20, you'd shrug it off. If GW sells a Hive Tyrant for $75, and then one day it's $90, you'd freak. But check the percentages there.

Yes, the prices are going up. I'm just saying the prices aren't going up *waaaaay* faster than anything else. It's just overblown because we want GW stuff all the time, we hyperfocus on every little price increase.

I'm not trying to be an apologist for them here, just my guess on why it all happens. And don't worry: Once sales drop off (as they will due to affordability), prices will moderate. Nothing can go up in price forever.

I partly agree with that. Overall, I don't think the prices are going up at a tremendous rate. Yes, they've gone up, yes, maybe more than inflation, but they've also improved their models a lot as well.

Where it kicks me in the teeth is:
1) Buying new ( ing) rules all the time and updating armies to keep up with rules. I say " ing" rules because I'm of the opinion they just release new rules to sell new books and new models and not actually to improve the game.

2) The models going down the path of absurdly cartoonish style. That's just me, but I find it hard to pay big bucks for a flyer that doesn't look like it could fly and a dude with a head almost as big as his torso and hands almost as big as his giant bobble head.

3) Competition coming about that can show it can be done well and cheaper. Now I don't know of any competition that has as good models AND such a deep background AND such a wide selection of models (what is it, 15 armies for Fantasy and 15ish for 40k, all reasonably well fleshed out with models). But there's definitely some good competition showing that models of GW quality can be made cheaper, which does nothing but aide in feeling more ripped off by GW. When I first started GW games I was already building and assembling model aircraft and even back then I could get some decent models of similar size to GW vehicles for a lot less money and better quality.

Rulebook: £45 hard-back
Codex: £30 hard-back
Codex: £20 soft-back
Battle-Force: £65-£80

Now, don't go flying off the handle saying some crap like "don't buy it then" etc, because that's not my point.
My point is simple:

GW's prices do nothing but inflate. Even their "deal sets" are the exact same price of buying the units INDIVIDUALY! (Not talking about Battle-Forces, but the new additions they're making. Two flyers for the price of two flyers. What a deal! Oh wait...)
GW produce inferior products, such as finecast, replacing their old metal models with resin to save themselves a buck and then jack up the price 10-fold.
GW sells bits packs, because they're technically the only place you should be buying additional armaments/add-ons for your Citadel miniatures. So what do they do?
Make them finecast and charge up the ass!

Yes, I am ranting. However, let me put this to you:

GW encourages their audience to buy their products, and ONLY their products.
I've been into a GW before wherein everyone inside had to pretend-out-loud that the models currently on a table top were not 3rd party, even though everyone who saw them is going "woah, those are awesome! Where're they from, man?" it was rather awkward.

So, now GW are moving to copyright the term Space Marine so nobody else on the planet can use it in their own IP.
They're taking on a company that's only a fraction of their size, aiming to pretty much destroy them just because they're making superior products for their target audience.
They've actively now turned away from *any* kind of generalist public relations beyond talking to a store manager face-to-face in-store.
Oh, but hey! Now that nearly every store is a one-man store, you'll be lucky to get their attention for 5 minutes before they move to intercept someone entering the door to SELL SELL SELL!

What is this company doing?
I once had such love for GW, now I dare not go into their store for fear of being talked into buying MOAR ST00F!

I, like many, have turned to the discounters and the eBay stores and the 3rd party companies for bits and add-ons.

How can GW keep this up?

Inflate the prices.
Cut communication with our primary audience.
Destroy any who dare make anything that'll make the hobby more enjoyable and varied.
Oh, and don't let anyone use "Space Marine" because we definitely invented that term. *cough*

TL;DR: GW are pushing their customers further and further away with their absolutely pathetic decisions, and yet have the nerve to just push those loyal customers away in order to sell a couple of books for £70+ to new players, just so they can play the game.

Kudos, GW. Kudos!

Has anyone every thought the reasons why the new flyer codex is web site only? How about the increase in the amount of codexs and supplements (and price) in the past two years? These actions are not made to promote the hobby, these actions are purely and economic one from a company to keep their profitability at a level according to their respective goals.

It's a way to run a business, not the way I would run it since this is a customer based one, but never the less it is GW's way.

I really hope you realize that if you get down to the basics of it, things such as the hardcover rulebook and codecies cost GW around $5 to manufacture, with a negligible overhead (things such as paying the authors' salary and such) because so many are produced. This manufacturing cost increases ever so slightly every year, and I expect a firm that is growing in size to increase their prices a bit more to increase profitability from the previous fiscal years.

However: what GW sees fit to do is to increase their marginal revenue on all of their products at a ridiculous rate. This quickly drives down the number of potential buyers in the market, as the cost of entry quickly rises beyond what those people deem rational. However, because many regulars aren't going to give up their beloved hobby, the majority of GW's sales are inelastic. So it makes "sense" to them that raising prices will raise total revenue because the same amount of people that bought that box of guardsman for $25 will surely buy it for $30 and so on...

GW will continue to raise their prices so long as people keep dishing out for their goods, simple as that. I myself am trying to cut back on the amount I've been investing into Warhammer, and I can admit: it feels almost like quitting smoking or the likes. It's an addiction many of us have, whether you like it or not.

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
I really hope you realize that if you get down to the basics of it, things such as the hardcover rulebook and codecies cost GW around $5 to manufacture, with a negligible overhead (things such as paying the authors' salary and such) because so many are produced. This manufacturing cost increases ever so slightly every year, and I expect a firm that is growing in size to increase their prices a bit more to increase profitability from the previous fiscal years.

However: what GW sees fit to do is to increase their marginal revenue on all of their products at a ridiculous rate. This quickly drives down the number of potential buyers in the market, as the cost of entry quickly rises beyond what those people deem rational. However, because many regulars aren't going to give up their beloved hobby, the majority of GW's sales are inelastic. So it makes "sense" to them that raising prices will raise total revenue because the same amount of people that bought that box of guardsman for $25 will surely buy it for $30 and so on...

GW will continue to raise their prices so long as people keep dishing out for their goods, simple as that. I myself am trying to cut back on the amount I've been investing into Warhammer, and I can admit: it feels almost like quitting smoking or the likes. It's an addiction many of us have, whether you like it or not.

Play testing and research times go into costs to.

Thats a good one, if there is any playtesting, its done long before it goes to the printer.

 Atropus wrote:

Play testing and research times go into costs to.

Again: that is negligible because it is a one-time cost. If they pay an author to write every single book that GW produces a yearly salary, it has very little effect on their profit margin unless it's some ridiculous number or their number of sales is low, which is not the case with an international company such as them. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion (call me out if someone knows exactly what goes on) that GW doesn't devote the majority of it's profits to funding it's writers/designers/play-testers what have you!

 TheMostSlyFox wrote:
However: what GW sees fit to do is to increase their marginal revenue on all of their products at a ridiculous rate. This quickly drives down the number of potential buyers in the market, as the cost of entry quickly rises beyond what those people deem rational. However, because many regulars aren't going to give up their beloved hobby, the majority of GW's sales are inelastic. So it makes "sense" to them that raising prices will raise total revenue because the same amount of people that bought that box of guardsman for $25 will surely buy it for $30 and so on...

I really think that's just conjecture. Do we really know? I haven't been through all of GW's financial statements over the years, but nor have I ever heard this statement linked to actual facts.

It's not like Apple where you can see them charging premium prices and their stock price keeps going through the roof and their stores are packed to the brim with as people fall over themselves to pay it. GW stock price has been up and down over all the years I've been collecting, all in all remaining mostly unchanged, and actual local perception of GW is decreasing with less people using their stores, more people buying from discounted 3rd party shops and local gaming clubs focusing more on other games than GW produced games.

Nucflash wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

I used to run Jaws.. and as many thunderhammers i could cram in and as many Missle launchers I could carry.. Lets just say I won most games.. Not with skill but because Space wolfs are so unbalanced its not even funny....

He could just not run them, and then poof, he doesn't win most of his games and needs to think his strategy up, just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to constantly use it.

But the fun Factor for me is Winning.. So I cheese as much as I can.. That means using the most OP forge world stuff that I can find... And all the Most OP list I can make. I have stated this before I have found that most of my fellow Warmachine/hordes players are like me. OUR fun do not come from placing Miniatures that look cool and have cool lore on the table. The fun comes when we outsmart or opponent and win with skill. In Warmachine I cheese and make the best list I can.. but compared to 40k/WHFB, my oppnent can counter me with uppdated rules no mather what faction he playes. So instead of feeling like Crap, I'm playing broken wood elfs, or TAU or some other outdated army... he can adapt and come back and give me a fight, and maybe beat me...This is what makes Warmachine/hordes fun for the competitive crowed that I belong to. And that is the main reason we Quit GWs unbalanced games....

Im not a fan of WAAC players at all, but Ill agree with the love for PPs rule balance. I dont need to win every game I play. Sometimes even a loss is a lot of fun when it was a hard fought game.

Orktavius wrote:
GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

That's cute.

If that time ever existed, it's long over now.

 Fafnir wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

That's cute.

If that time ever existed, it's long over now.

Agreed.

GW makes good quality minis with the most wide spread rules system to back them up

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

That's cute.

If that time ever existed, it's long over now.

Agreed.

GW makes good quality minis with the most wide spread rules system to back them up

I don't know, I still think they make the best minis, they are just ridiculously priced. Its subjective of course, but I've got Mantic stuff and its got feth all on GWs, the AOW stuff is excellent, but I wouldn't say its better, and I don't particularly like PPs stuff.

Throgg is fething brilliant for example, he's just not £50 brilliant!

 mattyrm wrote:

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

That's cute.

If that time ever existed, it's long over now.

Agreed.

GW makes good quality minis with the most wide spread rules system to back them up

I don't know, I still think they make the best minis, they are just ridiculously priced. Its subjective of course, but I've got Mantic stuff and its got feth all on GWs, the AOW stuff is excellent, but I wouldn't say its better, and I don't particularly like PPs stuff.

Throgg is fething brilliant for example, he's just not £50 brilliant!

Agreed. In terms of quality of production I don't think there's anyone producing the same quality, certainly not anywhere near in the same volume, as GW. I'm referring to their plastics of course.

However in terms of quality of concept they've been sadly lacking for my tastes recently. With a handful of exceptions.

I agree with you on the concept azreal, sometimes I wish things would take a more -dare I say, realistic Abnett esq direction.

Another price rise in the summer seems destined to push up stuff wavering at the £18.50 to £20. I call it :(

 Fafnir wrote:

Orktavius wrote:
GW still makes the highest quality miniatures out there regardless of whether or not you like their appearance.

-Edited by insaniak -

That's cute.

If that time ever existed, it's long over now.

Every other wargaming system I've ever browsed at my FLGS (one of the largest in southern Britain and stocks many different game systems on shelves) has had models that pale in comparison to 40k, short of Dystopian Wars (Steampunk colonialism world war or something like that) which was fairly recent. One of the store managers was banging on about how it would take off, and yet it never has, because there's no interest in investing in something that won't last. I'd buy the models, but I know the system will be dead within months if anyone even plays it to begin with. 40k on the other hand has a timespan of years ahead of it.

It baffles me how Infinity gets any praise for its models, the poses are silly and flat out stupid at times while the gameplay revolves around assortments of models that are inconsistent with Cossacks, French guys and SAS in say, one faction, and don't look that great either. Any chance of me trying it was absolutely destroyed by the poor quality of poses and lack of opportunity for tightly themed armies.

Warmachine looks too cartoony to me and the mechs look amateurish in their design. I think it was on a Malifaux promotional day that they were handing out free sample models, I went to receive mine to find it was like an ugly peasant in thin clothes exposing its rear end. No word of a lie.

I said "I might think of trying it" to the developer, but that felt like an insult and my interest dissipated completely. Those Dreamforge ones are "meh" to me, short of the Eisenkern storm troopers they look wrong and they lack detail, with large proportions of visible flat plastic surfaces making up a bunch of the models.