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Can a character leave and join the same unit in the same movement phase?

If I remember correctly, the only thing the BGB states about IC's joining/leaving units is that they can only do it during the movement phase, and that they can only join the unit if they are in coherency with that unit at the time the joining is declared (or something like that).

I have to say that I can neither think of a reason why you wouldn't be able to do it, nor a reason why you would want to.

Sal.

Imagine if the combined unit had different movement rates.

The IC could split from the combined unit at the start of the movement phase, each component move it's full movement and then if they are in coherancy rejoin together.

Doesn't work.

Joining and leaving revolves around the IC's movement.

He joins the unit by moving within 2" of them.
He leaves the unit by moving out of coherency.

So in order to leave the unit, he has to move away from them.
By the time you move the unit, therefore, the IC has already moved... and so can not rejoin them until next turn.

If you move the unit first, the IC has not yet left them (by moving out of coherency) and so would still be a part of the unit and would have to move with them.

A character can join a unit any time during his movement phase by moving within 2" of a unit and declaring that the character is joining the unit. There is no time specified for when you have to declare you are joining with a unit, other than the movement phase. The movement phase is defined on page 15.

I am going to assume we are all going to agree that joining occurs when all relevant units are at their final positions for that phase. (Otherwise we would have situation where a moved character attaches to an unmoved unit.)

So how can this be done.

A character moves.

In the process of moving he breaks coherency and leaves the unit.

Then the unit can move up to the character.

The character has moved and is within 2" of the unit. At this point during the movement phase all one has to do is declare they are joined.  All criteria for joining a unit have been met.

Ok, I've actually read the rules for joining/leaving a unit by an IC, and insaniak has it right.

Sorry TBM, but we cannot agree that joining/leaving a unit is dependent upon where the models are at the end of the movement phase, 'cuz that's not what the rules say.

All from BGB, pg 50, "Characters Joining & Leaving Units:"

"In order to join a unit, and independent character simply has to move within the 2" coherency distance of the unit during his movement phase and be declared as joining it"

And slightly lower, first bullet point:

"An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

So, to join or leave a unit is an action taken during moving the IC model in such a fashion as to achieve certain defined characteristics, and joining a unit has a further stipulation that the IC must be "declared" to be joining the unit.

With that in mind, I do not see how an IC can both leave and join a unit during the same turn/Movement phase.

To leave the unit, the model must be moved out of coherency. To join the unit, it must be moved into coherency (note, the rule does NOT say that the unit can be moved into coherency with the IC).

Without resorting to nth dimensions, wormholes or tesseracts, I don't understand how an IC model can both be moved out of coherency and into coherency with the same unit during the same move.

A diagram would sure help me though

Sal

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 6:32 PM
Then the unit can move up to the character.

Joining, as I already posted, requires the IC to move to within 2" of the unit, not the unit to move within 2" of the IC.

I am not quite sure that I buy that arguement. The character moved, and he moved within 2" of the final location of the unit. I see little relevence in who moved to the joining location first. 

Both can be said to have moved to within 2" coherency distance.  The fact that the unit moved after the character seems irrelevant.

The character has fufilled his obligation of "move within 2" of the unit" in the movement phase.  There is nothing in the rule saying the character has to be the one to do the final movement.  All he has to do is have moved to within 2" of the unit by the time the declaration is made.  And the declaration can me made any time during the movement phase.

That is all that is required to join a unit. 

 

Actually, it is possible for a character to both move out of coherency with a unit and into coherency with a unit in the same phase - for certain geometries of unit.
I don't know why you'd ever want to do this, but imagine a unit arranged in a horse-shoe configuration where the ends of the shoe are more than 4" apart from each other.
The character could move in a straight line from one end towards the other, first breaking coherency and then reconnecting at the other end.

ie

X  C  ->    X
X               X
X               X
X  X  X  X  X

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 8:10 PM

I am not quite sure that I buy that arguement. The character moved, and he moved within 2" of the final location of the unit. I see little relevence in who moved to the joining location first.

That's because you're operating under the mistaken assumption that joining a unit is somehow done at the end of the Movement phase.

It's not. It's a specific action performed by the character. He does it by moving to within 2" of the unit and being declared joined.

Once you have moved the character and progressed on to the next unit, you can't go back and have the character perform another action. His Movement Phase is done.

Incorrect, his movement is done, his movement phase is not done.  (My house includes more rooms than just my room.)  Page 15 defines Movement phase.

His movement phase is done when all movements are complete. 

Joining is not a movement.

Also I never said the declaration would be done at the end of the movement phase, but in the movement phase.

or instead of the formation being a horseshoe shape, the character could move along a horseshoe shaped path? Moving out of 2" coherency and back into it?

"In order to join a unit, an independent character simply has to move within the 2" coherency distance of the unit during his movement phase and be declared as joining it"
(emphasis mine).

It is quite clear that the IC is the one who has to do the moving.



The key word in the BGB passage is move. If you move = movement. A model can only move once, upto their maximum movement distance.

Aside from this concept of yours not being supported by rules, it seems like you are trying to find some sort of loophole, whihc is generally looked upon as bad form.

No. His Movement Phase ended when he completed his movement. The army's Movement Phase continues though.

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 8:22 PM
His movement phase is done when all movements are complete.

No, your movement phase is done when all movements are complete.
His movement phase is done when he has moved.

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 8:22 PM
Joining is not a movement.

Nobody said it was.

But in order to join, the IC has to move to within 2" of the unit.
Not 'the unit move within 2" of the IC'.
Not 'wind up within 2" at some point in the movement phase'

The Joining rules are very specific. The character has to move to within 2" of the unit and be declared as joining it.


Any other combination of movement and measurement will not result in the character joining the unit.

I am not sure where you guys are getting that each unit has a unique and individual movement phase. It's pretty clear from page 15 that there is only one movement phase, and that is the movement phase of all units. Inside that movement phase each unit performs movements sequentially. But those movements do not each constitute a movement phase by themselves (unless you provide a reference I have missed). The summary of what constitutes a movement phase is even spelled out in a big black box on the page, again please look at the boxes on page 14 and 15.

Anybody got any references that define unit specific movement phases?

Posted By insaniak on 02/13/2007 9:01 PM

No, your movement phase is done when all movements are complete.
His movement phase is done when he has moved.

The Joining rules are very specific. The character has to move to within 2" of the unit and be declared as joining it.

Again his movement phase is my movement phase. (as opposed to my opponents movement phase).  There is only 1 definition of movement phase in the codex.

The character will move within 2" of a unit in the (his) movement phase.  Joining will be declared in the (his) movement phase.

 

No. His Movement Phase is his Movement Phase and not somebody elses.

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 9:30 PM
I am not sure where you guys are getting that each unit has a unique and individual movement phase.

It's a figure of speech, rather than a rule.

You move one unit, and then move onto the next. Since you can't go back to the first, the first unit's movement phase is done.


It's irrelevant anyway, since the important part is how the character joins the unit, not when he does so.

Namely:

Posted By the-bad-me on 02/13/2007 9:30 PM
The character will move within 2" of a unit in the (his) movement phase.  Joining will be declared in the (his) movement phase.

If you move the character, and then move the unit, you are not moving the character to within 2" of the unit. You are moving the unit to within 2" of the character.


It doesn't matter whether Joining can be declared at any point in the Movement phase, in between moving every second Harlequin, or 3 weeks later by registered post. You have to move the character to within 2" of the unit. Not the other way around.

I agree with the above.

This just appears to be an attempt to circumvent the rules prohibitting multiple movment modes within a unit.

I can't even call it exploiting a loophole, 'cuz the rule appears crystal clear to me.

IC's joining a unit have specific parameters for doing so, and they mention nothing about moving other units or the end of the movement phase.  I'm pretty sure I spelled out the argument pretty well above.

Sal.

edit:  One other thing.  There is a rule that states as soon as you proceed to moving another unit, you cannot go back to a unit that you have already moved.  An argument can be made that the first unit's "movement phase" has ended as soon as you proceed to a second unit.

I see a use for that if a unit must not move because of heavy weapon shooting in the unit

- Your IC is in danger of being snipe and you want  to change his position while still shooting with the unit
-your IC does not have a heavy weapon and you want to change his position to have a better line of sight or range with the IC while leaving the unit there

I do not have the rulebook with me to check if it is legal

Posted By scramasax on 02/14/2007 1:09 PM
I see a use for that if a unit must not move because of heavy weapon shooting in the unit

Nope, doesn't work. By the time you get to the shooting phase, the IC is a part of the unit again... in which case a model in the unit moved in the movement phase, so the unit counts as moving and can't fire heavy weapons.

This may sound like a noob question, but are we talking about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin? What benefit is there for an IC to leave and then join the same unit in the same movement turn?

So the IC leaves the unit moves around a bit and then decides to rejoin the unit all in the same walk-about. Okay. Now the unit he has (re)joined can no longer move since he's finished moving.

What's the advantage?

Posted By TheGreatAvatar on 02/14/2007 6:59 PM
What benefit is there for an IC to leave and then join the same unit in the same movement turn?

the-bad-me explained what he was trying to do in his second post... It could be a (very slight) benefit when the IC and unit have different movement rates.