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I went to orccon this weekend and going into the final round I was 2-0.  I ended up with a draw round 3 with my IG so ended up 2-0-1.  

Round 3 my opponent was playing battle sisters.  I am somwhat familiar with WH but not well enough to know when/if my opponent is "cheating me".  Im am not accusing anyone but here is what my opponent was doing.  WHenever I would shoot him with AP3 or better weapons he would make an act of faith and his save would become invoulnerable so he would not lose nearly as much.  He made the test before I shot certain weapons. 

However in the codex it says

PHASE: enemy shooting phase or either player's assault phase.

EFFECT: roll at THE BEGINNING OF THE PHASE.  unit gains INV save equal to armor save.  

So was he making a mistake or is there some FAQ update or somthing that I am not aware of.  Or am I misinterpreting this?  He was supposed to roll at the start of my phase not once I call what I am shooting at who halfway through my phase correct?

He must make the Test of Faith before you declare any targets for shooting or before any decisions are made for assaulting/combat. Sounds like he was playing WH incorrectly, and the only FAQ for WH to my knowledge is on the UK's GW site, and it mentions nothing of this. I can see how he might confuse the rules; it's best to assume your opponent was just confused and therefore you can "enlighten" him with a nearby judge rather than accusing him of cheating, likey igniting a fiasco of arguments about rules interpretation.

Yeah, thats what I figured. Thats usually the case. He was a good sport about things and did not seem the type that would try to cheat.

Yeah, he's giving himself a big advantage by seeing what you are shooting the way he played it. I've had that done to me a couple times and had to call my opponent out. They may not like it, but the rules are very clear.

Having played WH myself, it's sometimes hard to know when the start of someone's shooting or assault phase is. Start of phase is not always announced. More often than not, someone is moving their last few models, I hear "I'm shooting my 4 plasmaguns at your Seraphim" and the dice hit the table before I can yell "Wait! I'm going to use an Act of Faith!"

It's a good idea for WH players to let their opponents know at the start of the game, that they will need explicit announcements of "I'm starting my shooting phase now...are you doing anything?" etc.


It *does* sound like the OP's opponent was doing things incorrectly though, this is just a general comment.

I am a big time Sisters of Battle player (list below just for kicks and to show off)

I warn my opponents not to start a phase without giving me "a sec to do my  sister stuff".  If they refuse, I call a judge.  Anyone who wants ot win that way needs to leave.

You must do Acts of Faith before you know what your opponent will do, at the start of each phase.  I made this mistake at first as well so I was guilty too, bt it didn't take long for someone to be helpful about pointing it out.

Doing it first is unfortunate and fortunate because the reason they have you do them first is to avoid just what he was doing.  The bad part is, the opponent (you in this case) KNOWS if you made the check or not and WILL adjust his firing accordingly.  A perfect example is missile launchers.  Normally, a Krak makes sense against power armored opponents but if your Sisters go invulnerable on the opponent, then EVERY missile launcher will suddenly be FRAG's.  Lame but that's what happens and I would do the same.

If the opponent is a jerk and tries to start phases without giving me time to do them, then I raise the BS flag

Heavy:
2 units: Exorcist (extra armor)
Troops:
3 units: 17 sisters (veteran w/ power+pistol, Meltagun, Heavy Flamer)
Elites
1 Unit:  Inquisitor
1 unit:  Callidus Assassin
HQ
2 units:  Canoness w/Power+pistol, Litanies of Faith
3 units:  6 Seraphim w/ Meltabombs

Total Units: 12
Total models:  75
Total Faith Points:  10

The guys above pretty much answered it I think. But I wanted to ask, was he rolling the test properly too? He has to roll equal to or over the number of models in the unit to succeed so I was just wondering. Different acts roll over or under depending on which ones they are.

Posted By Jancoran on 03/10/2007 12:51 AM
You must do Acts of Faith before you know what your opponent will do, at the start of each phase.  I made this mistake at first as well so I was guilty too, bt it didn't take

Not entirely true.  Each act of faith is specific as to when you use them.  They are not all before you know what your opponent will do.  And they are not all at the start of a phase either.

 

That said, Spirit of the Martyr (Inv Save) is at the start of a phase, though some opponents jump straight from moving to shooting without giving a WH player a chance to use SotM.  And when I know where those plasma cannons are going, you'd better believe that unit is getting SotM on it.

When I play against SoB, I always ask my opponent at the beginning of each of both my and their phases "Do you want to use any acts of faith?"

I've found that this has two effects: it forces them to use their acts at the right time; it generally makes them use fewer acts, because they know that I'm keeping a very close eye on how many acts they have remaining.

I'm not saying that they were cheating before I paid such close attention. What I am saying is that they now pay very special attention to their acts, and rarely worried about how many faith points they had remaining. Once I'm looking at it, they pay much closer attention and want to make sure that they "still have enough" at the end of the game, which usually results in them having 5 or 6 left over.

Posted By Tiderian on 03/12/2007 10:13 PM
When I play against SoB, I always ask my opponent at the beginning of each of both my and their phases "Do you want to use any acts of faith?"

I've found that this has two effects: it forces them to use their acts at the right time; it generally makes them use fewer acts, because they know that I'm keeping a very close eye on how many acts they have remaining.

I'm not saying that they were cheating before I paid such close attention. What I am saying is that they now pay very special attention to their acts, and rarely worried about how many faith points they had remaining. Once I'm looking at it, they pay much closer attention and want to make sure that they "still have enough" at the end of the game, which usually results in them having 5 or 6 left over.

Well there is one exception but its very clearly worded.  That would the the AP!/power attack Acr of Faith.  To do it you must roll under.  YOU DO NOT HAVE TO ROLL FOR THIS ACT  TIL AFTER YOU ROLL FOR HITTING.  Obviously this means you need to make sure you decide to do it or not before dropping the flamer template action, because smart players know to resolve template portion of their attacks first (maximizes how many you hit).

The fearless/autoregroup act of faith (roll over squad size) lasts for a whole round, so does not need to be renewed every phase, just at the Beginning of the Sisters (specifically) movement phases.  BUT like ALL THE OTHERS, ITS STILL DONE BEFORE YOU MOVE with the obvious exception I alreadty mentioned.

As a Sister player, I made a little cheat sheet for my opponents, that just specifies the phase, Over/under and BRIEF effect description.  It saves  a lot of questions.

 

Actually, I had never really thought about it before, but it looks like you do have to drop the flamer template before rolling for Divine Guidance, so that you can count how many models are hit. Then you roll for the Act of Faith, then you roll for wounds.