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Planning on attending all 3 GT's (Vegas/Chicago/Baltimore)  I have not played in a GT since 2004.  There are no composition guidelines that I can find on GW websites.  I remember it being 40% troops (2 slots maxed out), minimal wargear, troops choices outnumber other choices total and you scored high.  I am looking for some guidance as I have not played a game of 40K since the new rules came out.  I will post 2 lists for comments.  Thanks!

Space Marines @ 1750

Commander Master w/ terminator armor, storm bolter & powersword~120

Terminator Command squad 1x4 w/ assault cannon~180

Land Raider transport~250

Tactical Combat squad 6x5 w/ heavy bolter~480

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons (x3)~435

Attack Bike Squadron 1x3 w/ heavy bolters~150

Dreadnought w/ t-l lascannon, missile launcher~135

I am a big fan of redundancy, following military tactics.  I realize this is an uber-shooty one trick pony,  I am not ultra competitive and don't get bent if my pony doesn't win the race.  I just enjoy rolling lots of heavy bolter dice.  Obviously the tactics are to reduce my enemy through superior firepower so he cannot claim objectives and fight for a draw or get lucky enough to have some mobility in the right place at the right time to steal a victory or two.

This is more comp friendly, but still shooty oriented:

Space Marines @ 1750

Commander Master w/ bike, teleport homer, powersword~125

Scout 1x10 w/ heavy bolter, 5 swniper rifles, bolters~160

Tactical squad 1x10 w/ heavy bolter, flamer~161

Rhino w/ extra armor, smoke~58

Tactical Combat squads 2x5 w/ missile launcher~170

Tactical Combat squads 2x5 w/ heavy bolter~160

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons (x2)~290

Predator Destructor w/ lascannon sponsons, searchlight~126

Attack Bike squadron 1x3 w/ heavy bolters~150

Terminator squad 1x5 w/ assault cannon~220

Dreadnought w/ t-l lascannon, extra armor~130

As above, my tactics are obvious, straight forward and not reinventing anything already practiced.  Shoot the gak out of the enemy as they advance for 2-4 turns, then use whats left to grab objectives in final 2 rounds.  Preds and combat tacs are static firebase.  Commander/attack bikes/tactical squad in rhino/dread are mobile elements.  Use the commander to deploy the termies via deep strike to add fire/assault power and/or to grab table quarter/objective.

 

Which list would do better over the span of 15 GT games?  Thanks for the feedback.

 

 

 

I have both good news and perhaps bad news.

There is no comp at US GTs.

If you're looking to win against the kind of ultra-competitive armies that the tournament scene seems full of, these lists might not cut it...more when I have more time, but start by taking a look at the "Toughest List" thread, and some of the drop pod Marine lists and tactics discussions that are about.

-Adso

WOW!  Thought I would get some feedback.  I'm leaning toward this list:

Space Marines @1750

Master Commander w/ terminator armor, storm bolter & powersword~120

Terminator Command 1x4 w/ assault cannon~180

Land Raider~250

Scout combat 1x5 w/ 5 sniper rifles~90

Scout combat 1x5 w/ heavy bolter, bolters~70

Tactical combat 4x5 w/ heavy bolter~320

Dread w/ t-l lascannon, missile launcher~135

Attack Bikes 1x3 w/ heavy bolter~150

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons~145

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons~145

Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons~145

It should bring enough firepower to the tournament table.  The only real difference between the lists is a Land Raider vs. a 10-man tactical in a rhino.  Both are a scoring unit, but the LR combined with the 3 preds and dread seems dead hard.  It would be hell for the godzilla monstrous creatures and/or enemy vehicles.  The major sacrifice would be removing the termie teleport by loading them in the LR, but it seems to make this tactic left wanting, as the termies are unsupported and might be better suited for counter-charge via the LR frontal hatch after my lines get hit.  I guess only playtesting will tell based upon the lack of response by this forum.

 

What you're doing is purchasing lascannons where they are expensive and heavy bolters where lascannons would be cheap.

A) Terminators need to have two assault cannons per unit.
B) Tactical Squads need to have lascannons.
C) Attack Bikes need to be replaced by Land Speeders.
D) Predators should be equipped with the TL lascannon turret and HB sponsons.
E) Land Raider needs to be replaced with something that isn't classified as POINT SINK.

Take Assault Marines, they're good.

It's not so much that the forum is unresponsive as that the list needs total revamping rather than adjusting -- the group can only say but so much until that is no longer the case.

Competitive vanilla marine armies today tend to contain the following elements:

1) Cheap commander with no honor guar
1) OR Terminator Librarian with two-autocannon toting 4-man escort.

2) At least 1 - 2 Terminator squads with two assault cannon.

3) 6 man tactical squads armed with a lascannon and plasma gun, 3 - 4x.

4) Land Speeder Tornadoes - between 2-6, armed with assault cannons and heavy bolters.

5) Whirlwinds - at least one.

Some of the optional support elements are:

1) Dreads or Venerable Dreads to up the number of armored vehicles and assault cannons.

2) Scout squads with 4 snipers and a missile launcher.

3) "Termiebomb" bike squads -- scout or otherwise, they will swoop forward with a homer and drop your termies.

4) 6 - 8 man assault squads led by a character and/or a vet sarge. 2 plasma pistols are de rigeur.

5) Twin las / HB sponson predators AND Razorbacks -- just one will give your opponent a simple targeting choice.

Some of the things few lists include, for good reason:

1) Large, multipurpose tactical squads.

2) Rhinos. Think of it as 50 pts for being unable to fire your heavy weapon, blocking sight lines, and a high liklihood of a turn of entanglement.

3) Veterans - though not a bad unit, the other elites choices are just....better.

4) Attack bikes -- Same reasoning as above -- other fast attack choices are so much better that this so-so unit is beaten out.

5) Land Raiders -- you might as well paint "LANCE ME" on these.

Your second list is moving towards this....post again soon, don't get frustrated! People are here to help!

-Adso

Here's a lean list....boring as hell to build and play, but you said you were looking for competitive, not creative.

1750 Vanilla Marines

HQ

Epistolary in Terminator Armor with Power Fist, Psychic Hood, Force Weapon, Storm, Fear (180)

4 Terminator Bodyguards with Tank Hunters. 2 Assault Cannons. (206)

ELITES

5 Terminators, Tank Hunters, 2x Assault Cannons (255)

TROOPS

6x Tactical Marines: Lascannon, Plasma Gun (115)

6x Tactical Marines: Lascannon, Plasma Gun (115)

6x Tactical Marines: Lascannon, Plasma Gun (115)

6x Tactical Marines: Lascannon, Plasma Gun (115)
Razorback: Stock: 70

5x Tactical Marines: Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Vet Sarge w/Powerfist (116)
Razorback: Stock. 70

5x Tactical Marines: Flamer, Heavy Bolter, Vet Sarge w/Powerfist (116)
Razorback: Stock. 70


FAST ATTACK

Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon (80)

Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon (80)

Land Speeder Tornado with Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon (80)

HEAVY

Pred Anihillator w/HB Sponsons (130)

Yep, pretty standard tournament army.

You may want Extra Armor on your Predator, but that's about all I see.

Thanks for the response, brother adso, but 290 views with only 7 responses (3 by you, 1 by myself) seems pretty unresponsive.  I'm not looking for a revamp., nor do I feel it needs one.  Therion made some nice adjustments, as did yourself.  The basic structure is there; 6 shooty combat tacs/termies/cheap commander/dread support/scouts w/ sniper rifles.  The only things you didn't like were the attack bikes and land raider.  Two aspects of the lists that are easily adjustable without revamping the entire list.

~add an assault cannon to the EXISTING termies.

~change the heavy bolters to lascannons for the EXISTING 6 combat tacs.

~swap 3 land speeders witht the 3 attack bikes in the EXISTING fast attack slot.

The two I don't agree with Therion and you about are the preds and Land Raider.  The Land Raider can be argued either way.  I see how it is a "point sink", but it is the only vehicle that can deploy a squad allowing it to assault the turn it comes out the frontal access point.  Clearly an advantage, albeit an expensive one.  Plus, it packs a punch with its weaponry with the ability to split it's fire.  It's like Arod in fantasy baseball, you pay a high salary, but you get reliability and consistency.  Obviously it is a lance magnet, but it would perform nicely against the nidzilla list, other marine lists, orks, and chaos.  It can be debatable either way.  But those 250 points can buy another deepstriking termie squad or 2 dreads with lascannons. 
What do you think, Therion?  How would you spend those points sink?

As for the predator advice, I respectfully, but totally, disagree with both of you.  I would NEVER put heavy bolter sponsons on an annihilator.  The lascannon turret and heavy bolter sponsons are oxymorons.  Targets that the lascannon should be firing at are not meant for heavy bolters and vice-versa.  Now heavy bolters on a destructor with the autocannon turret, that is an entirely different story and I would go that route in a heartbeat.

What about a vindicator, Therion?

I also disagree with you, brother adso, about razorbacks.  How can ANY dedicated transports be validated in a list under 4th addition rules.  That is truly a POINT SINK, as each of those 70 points are NON-SCORING, NON-OBJECTIVE HOLDING wastes of points that can be better spent on land speeders packing twice the weaponry and twice the mobility.

By the way, I never said I was looking for the most competitive list, just which one would perform better over the span of 15 GT games.    I am not ultra competitive, just a heavy bolter addict that loves lists with tons of DAKKA!

Thanks for your response and I am looking forward to more from you guys and the group.  I think I played against you, Therion, and some other familiar tag names in some RTT's at the old Dakka warehouse and the Boston GT a while back.  Did you play Eldar, Therion?  And brother adso, did you play templars?  I played against Chris Courtney, Don Morris, JT Scott, Duncan Watwood, Chris Bacolo, Mark Whittaker and other great guys in Baltimore and Boston GT's.

 

Posted By dornsfist on 03/08/2007 5:48 PM

  Plus, it packs a punch with its weaponry with the ability to split it's fire. 

Only Chaos Land Raiders can split thier fire...Though depends on which FAQ you use...Loyalists can't do it regardless.

Never played Templar, though I have played Marines for a while...all manner of variations. Never played up any farther than VA, though.

The Land Raider is a sink simply 'cause it has all the one-hit-kill whimsicalness of vehicles but with a higher price tag, the model is a giganto-target, and a lucky hit not only takes out a huge chunk of your points, but could disable a squad for a turn to boot. If you use it as a dedicated assault transport, all those points on its weaponry are less efficient, and if you use it as a firebase, all those points on its carrying capacity are less efficient.

However, since you're obviously thinking the choice through and will use it carefully, it may prove useful -- there are few or no truly awful units in the Codex SM (though techmarines and scout bikes come perilously close...). All we're trying to say is that there may be a more efficient way to use those 250 points that nets you similar or better advantages.

The pred...well, you're right in one sense -- it makes for inefficient targeting priorities IF your pred can shoot all its weapons most turn. But if you're moving (which, with a tough vehicle that can move 12" and claim a quarter, isn't out of the question) or need to start taking those gosh darned weapon destroyed results, the versatility thus offered can be nice. It's in some ways the same point you made about the Land Raider, except two HB sponsons actually makes the Pred cheaper.

Finally, hurrah for an addiction to heavy bolter dakka -- just be careful. It's a shorter-ranged, lower-powered weapon that helps little against Marines, Nidzillas, Eldar or Tau airforces, etc. If you take them, I would suggest pairing them with a melta or plasma gun to give the squad some 'oomph' -- after all, the PG only has 12" less range than your preferred Dakka Gun. I've seen some fun Marines that use the See But Don't Be Seen rules, heavy bolters, and PGs or Meltas to dish out some serious gun damage -- plus, since they'll all be getting infiltraite, I believe you'd have an advantage in Omega missions.

Sorry if I seemed harsh, by the way -- really didn't mean to come off that way. I like your writing and your attempts to find a balance between fun and competitive...it's certainly my preferred approach.

-Adso

Is that you, Joe C? Mr. Crimson Fists?

This is Ragnar; If you?re Joe, then we did play in some tournaments together at the original Dakka Dakka store. Eldar were my only tournament army back then.

I am not completely on board with Therion and Adso?s suggestions. Largely, but not completely. I tend to find that Landraiders are usually a point sink, but as you have noted, the ability to actually drive forward AND deliver an assault unit in the same turn is a real advantage, and the AV14 is much more valuable in a list with three AV13 targets to split your opponent?s antitank firepower. That said, an Assault Squad would probably be a more effective way to get some mobile assault power, which could actually use cover while advancing and not have the risk of getting completely wrecked first turn by a Bright/Darklance or a lucky lascannon shot.

I tend to still use a couple of Rhinos AND at least one Razor in my Dark Angels army, and only find them to be liabilities in Escalation missions. Otherwise they perform very well. If you are who I think you are, you have a pile of Razorbacks. You might try experimenting with the new Dark Angels rules that are coming out this month, which reduce the points cost of a Razorback (with searchlight and smoke, but without extra armor) by 24pts each. That may be enough to make a Razor-heavy army viable again, but we won't really be able to experiment with it until the 'dex is out.

I agree with your feeling that you can keep the bulk of your army the same, and I also love the task-focused Annihilators. A lot of players out there seem to be finding, however, that the mobility offered by the twin-las/HB sponsons pred is valuable, and it allows you a cost effective way to keep those HB shots while taking the cheap unShakeable lascannons in your Tac squads.

I think you could make the list work with the attack bikes, but it?s really hard to argue with the superior firepower offered by Tornadoes, especially given the awesomeness of the assault cannon. Not to mention the disappointment of attack bikes going down to a 3+ save.

Here?s a possible rough revamp, which would incorporate most of the suggestions so far, while keeping most of your original list intact:

Master w/ terminator armor, storm bolter & powerfist~130
Terminator Command 1x4 w/ 2 assault cannons, two chainfists ~-210
Scout combat 1x5 w/ heavy bolter, bolters~70
Tactical combat 4x5 w/ lascannon~360
Dread w/ t-l lascannon, missile launcher~135
Attack Bikes 1x2 w/ heavy bolter~100
8 man assault squad, two plasma pistols, vet sgt w/fist = 216
Tornado x2 w/Assault cannons = 160
Predator Annihilator w/ HB sponsons~130
Predator Annihilator w/ HB sponsons~130
Predator Annihilator w/ HB sponsons~130

Is that you, Joe C? Mr. Crimson Fists?

This is Ragnar; If you’re Joe, then we did play in some tournaments together at the original Dakka Dakka store. Eldar were my only tournament army back then.
___________________________________________________________________

Sorry, Ragnar, too many concussions over the years I'm afraid.  I thought you were Therion.  I cannot remember the last time I posted on this site, the format is very different.  Everytime I made the trip up there I had a blast.  Great players with stunnnig armies.  Good times.  Enough reminiscing

The GT will not let me play crimsonfists without adhering to the traits in the new codex.  I always roll with a land raider (tiger) and 3 predators (panzerkampfwagons), either variant, it speaks to the blitzkrieging kraut in me.  So now my boys are known as "Dornsfist".  An unknown, splinter legion of primarch Rogal Dorn. 

You know I have a fondness for heavy bolters.  When the new marine toting the heavy bolter came out it was love at first sight.  The fire is still there after all these years, it is quite simply my favorite looking model.  I also love vanilla ice cream and plain pizza, so yes, simple things do excite me. lol  Therefore, tacs will have the heavy bolters, and my godhammers will be on the tanks, where they belong.  Less cost efficient?  YES!  But the basic elements are still there.  You can't teach an old dog new tricks.  Unless I motivate myself to build and paint a new army.  That DA codex is interesting.  I always liked bikes.  Remember my chappy and librarian on iron steeds and 6 attack bikes?  They used to be in the gallery.

The new rules hurt me bad, Ragnar, they hurt my heart.  I cannot justify my lovely razorbacks in tournament.  The landspeeder is far superior in cost effectiveness.  Unfortunately, I have only one Tornado, so I might be the only idiot with 3 typhoons in Baltimore.

Good to hear from you again, maybe we will run into each other this season.

How would this list this perform in 15 GT games?

Space Marines @1750

Master Commander w/ term. armor, storm bolter & power-ax~125

Term Command 1x5 w/ 2 assault cannons, storm bolter & powerfists~240

Combat Tacs 6x5 w/ heavy bolter~480

3x Predator Annihilators~435

2x Dreads w/ t-l lascannon, missile launcher~270

LS Tornado 1x2 w/ heavy bolter, assault cannon~160

This leaves me with 40 points to play with:

~make one of the dreads a venerable tankhunter and upgrade 2 combat tacs w/ missile launchers

~dozer blades on preds and extra armor on dreads & preds

~add a termie

~give commander adamantine mantle & thunderhammer (take missile off a dread)

~2 hunter-killers on preds and searchlights for dreads & preds

~iron halo on commander and veteran skill for termies (tank hunter)

~any other suggestions?

OR drop the dreads, keep the land raider and use the remaining points to add an epistolary w/ fury of the ancients, bolt pistol

I like this list well enough...different from "blah" marine lists, but still pretty dead 'ard.

I'd drop the MLs on the dreads for a few extra points, and to make them viable counterchargers to protect your tactical squads.

Then, use the points gained to arm up the tactical squads with some special weapons or vet sarges. Tank Hunters for the Termies is near-essential -- it turns the nastiness of an Assault Cannon into a real danger to almost any vehicle.

-Adso

Good to hear from you, Joe. Looks like I missed the opportunity to sign up for Vegas, but I'm going to be at Adepticon at the end of the month of you're considering attending. I'm not sure yet what other GTs I might be able to make it to this year.

I agree with Adso. Tank Hunter on Termies with ACs is just awesome. Special weapons in the tac squads would up the firepower.

Remember that you want an even number of Termies. 4 or 6 retains scoring status equally well or better than 5. I say go four, and spend the extra 40pts on one or two of those other toys. In order of preference, first upgrades for tacs (special weapons and/or ML), second, dozers/extra amor/searchlights.

Adepticon is in Chicago, right?  Do you have an itinerary for the game schedule?  Maybe I can catch a cheapo flight.  Let me know, thanks!  I really want to hit as many events this season as possible.

Space Marines @ 1750 (latest adjustment)

Commander Master w/ bike, teleport homer, powersword~125

Chaplain Reclusiarch w/ terminator armor, combi-plasma gun & Croziius, Rosarius~125
Terminator command 1x6 w/ 2 assault cannon, storm bolters & powerfists~280

Combat Tacticals 2x5 w/ missile launcher, bolters~170
Combat Tacticals 2x5 w/ heavy bolte, boltersr~160
Scout comabt 1x5 w/ 5 sniper rifles~90
Scout combat 1x5 w/ heavy bolter, bolters~70

Venerable dreadnought w/ tank hunter, assault cannon, storm bolter~135

3x Predator Annihilator w/ lascannon sponsons~435

LS Tornado 1x2 w/ assault cannon, heavy bolter~160

Missile launchers and infiltrating scouts give me better advantage in escalation as I have mix of anti-tank/infantry units deployed turn 1.
Commander on bike allows added mobilty and teleport homer to lock termies.
Chappy adds obvious benefits to termies.
If I keep the termie command 6 strong, it boosts deep strike punch and scoring survivabilty. But 80 points could buy another tornado or trick out my tanks/dread.


Any thoughts from anyone?

I would consider putting missile launchers in at least the bolter scout squad, if not the sniper squad. The possibilty of a first turn shot at side armor, or a first turn shot at skimmer tanks can really help.

I'm not sure that tankhunters is worth it on the vennie. I'd use the points to buy another combi-plas for the termie sgt.

I'm not really sure about the master, he's going to be awful lonely out there on his own.

I'd drop the twin las from the dreads. The cost isn't worth it compared to the awesomenss of the assault cannon. I'd also drop a terminator from the command squad. 4 man is more efficient in 4ed because of how vps are scored (commander is counted seperate for vps and can't score while the command squad must be brought below 50% to keep from scoring).

That gives you 120 points to play with. Another speeder couldn't hurt and/or the options mentioned by Mannahnin and Adso above.
Also thought I'd mention:
-Can't give terminator commander an iron halo
-Don't give him a thunder hammer. I use one on my Salamander commander for fluff only, and I can tell you it sucks for your IC to go last in combat (even with mantle).
-Adepticon is this comming weekend IIRC. Friday is 2000 point gladiator, no comp no sports tournament, just about anything goes (forge world flyers, super heavies, etc.) Saturday is team tourny. Sunday is 40k championship, RTT style tourny. Link to the tourny should be easy to find here (sorry too lazy to link).

Hope that helps.

Two weeks, Winterman. March 30 to April 1. Website is Adepticon.org.

Schedule of events here: http://adepticon.org/files/AdeptiCon07ScheduleBW.pdf

Every day has tournaments and seminars.

Right now I'm going to be in the team tournament Sat and the championships (RT/1 day GT) Sunday. I'm trying to work out a set of Wood Elf lists compact enough to pack along with my 40k so I can play in the fantasy escalation tourney Friday.

Joe, I like the list. I'd consider dropping Tankhunter and/or Venerable from the dread in order to afford a missile launcher for one or both of the scout squads. That possible turn 1 side armor shot is pretty valuable if you can get it. Also, I'm quite serious- you want Tankhunter for the terminators. It makes the ACs literally twice as effective against Falcons and Wave Serpents, and substantially better against everything else too. It's like American Express- don't leave home without it.