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Anyone have good ideas on how to make Deathguard viable against Mech Tau, or Mech skimmer armies in general?

I got almost tabled last night, and I can't think of much that I might have done differently.  I managed to take down one fish, kill 10 FW, and strip the weapons off of his railhead.  That's it.  I had only 4 nurgling bases on the table at the bottom of turn 6.

Mission was Gamma Cleanse

My 1500list:

GUO w WInd of Chaos
Chaos Lord in Termie Armour, Dessence,Dstrength,Rot, Gift of Chaos, Manreaper
4 Chosen in Termie Armour, 1 Reaper AC, 1 Chainfist

7 infiltrating PM, dual plasma, champ w mutation Fist homer
7 infiltrating PM, dual melta, champ w mutation Fist homer
7 infiltrating PM w BP+CCW, flamer; champ w plaguesword, homer, daemonchains
7 Plaguebearers
5 Nurglings
5 Nurglings

Dreadnought w TwAC, Demonic Possession


His list:
HQ crisis w TwMP, PR, HWtargetarray, HW multitracker

Pirahna with Fusion

SMS Fish (Decoy Launchers) w 8 Pathfinders, Shas'ui, bonded
3x SMS Fish (Decoy Launchers) w 10 FW

2 Ionheads w BC, Decoy, Targetarray
Railhead w SMS, Decoy, Targetarray, Multitracker


The pathfinder-boosted alpha strike knocked my assault unit down to just the Daemonhost, and SMS's knocked the 4 ablative wounds off of the plasma squad.

My melta squad charged around a forest only to find themselves 12.5" away from any vehicles - the meltas got taken down the following turn.

The Dreadnought even managed to survive 2 turns and Fire Frenzy twice, but didn't even scratch the Ionhead closest to him. 

The GUO was forced out before the daemonhostmade it to the pathfinders, and he got the only Fish kill; also managed to bring the daemons in off of him and kill the stranded FW from that fish.  But the pathfinders mounted up and ran off.  He kept FOFing behind 3-4 skimmer walls, which I couldn't crack.  My powerfists consistently missed, even with 4 attacks.  The reaper termie managed to strip the weapons off of the railhead, but then couldn't crack a Fish even from the side.

2 Nurgling bases successfully held up the HQ Crisis for a couple of turns; the  termies opted to try and shoot/chainfist Fish (to no avail) rather than charge in to take him out though.  Never got the chance to Spawn any of his models


Thoughts: obviously, I need more antitank in an all-comers list.   Probably a larger Termie unit with two Reapers, and tankhunters.  And maybe start them on the table instead of deepstriking them.  I could always deepstrike the Lord on his own, I
suppose.

Perhaps upgrade the dreadnought to twin lascannons?  Or trade it out for a triple las predator with all the trimmings?  Thing is, a pred might still have died to a lucky rail shot.  Two preds might have worked (for 400 points!), but there was that pirahna lurking around...

I could have kept the nurglings deeper in my backfield, to limit his FOFing opportunities.

Any suggestions?

That's rough, and I'm definitely not a fan of fighting Tau in general, especially Mek Tau ...

I think you're right on about the termies, taking them up to 7 total, get the other reaper and slap tankhunter on there. To pay for it, I'd almost suggest replacing the terminator lord entirely, his assault prowess isn't totally needed on a tankhunting 7 termie squad. Actually, I think the points work out fine if you drop the lord for 3 terminators, 1 reaper, tankhunting and some gear either for the free AC or a couple more chainfists for the squad.

Otherwise, I say yes to upgrading to twin-lascannons on the dread, and no to adding in a pred. There really isn't the points to that, without dropping something from what's a small, killy list. I'd suggest dropping 3 nurglings for the dread points (think that should cover it), and consolidating the nurgs into one unit of 7. This also brings you up to 6 squads of 7, and then the GUO for the 7th unit. Perhaps this happy numerology will make all the difference

Tactics-wise, I'm always unsure myself against heavy mek, but at least my Undivided has ranged fire support. I think the list tweaks above should be a step towards giving you better tools to work with, but in-game ...

Best of Luck!

- Boss Salvage

Ouch, a full skimmer army. Those can be tough for a lot of armies to face.

As you noticed, you obviously need more in the way of anti-tank firepower. With the equivalent of a Tau Armoured Company on the other side, you're really going to need more tank killing power. Are you trying to keep your army as an all-comers style or do you want to tool up against your Tau opponent?

Daemonically Possessed and Mutated Hull tri-lascannon Predators would be my suggestion. With only a single Railgun opposing it, it stands a good chance of surviving especially if you can park it in cover/behind partially LOS blocking terrain. With seven heavy skimmers on the table, there's no place for all of them to hide and 3 lascannons gives a decent chance to kill. Definitely two and maybe even 3 (!!!). Obviously watch out for the free roaming Fusion Pirahna.

Tank Hunting Reapers are not guaranteed kills, but it's another unit for your opponent to worry about. Two should reliably shake/stun a skimmer each turn, which at least cuts down on the incoming fire. Coupled with the Predator support to kill stunned vehicles, you can start drastically reducing the amount of incoming fire each turn. I have also heard of large (like 9+ man) Terminator squads just marching up the field blazing Reaper fire. Without loads of Plasma suits, those are really hard to remove and they can just plant in the center of the field and refuse to be dislodged.

Just like vs. Armoured Company, the vast majority of your army right now will be doing nothing. The Daemons, your Lord, the GUO, the infantry, all really have nothing to do in this matchup. In a Cleanse scenario, it might be best to Infiltrate/move them into the claiming corners and hunker down in cover/out of LOS. With T5 base, you should be able to absorb most of the incoming SMS fire.

Hmm...good advice guys, thanks!

I'd like to keep it pretty much an all-comers list. If I was tooling against Mech Tau I'd be better off fielding Zilla Nids with 2 tyrants, 3 gunfexes and 3 dakkafexes.

I like the idea of the Nurgly numerology, nice. And I like the idea of infiltrating into corners out of LOS - with a bigger tankhunting termie unit marching up the middle. He might have had to expose his AV10 rear armour to the termies when digging out the corner troops. And having troops on all sides would have restricted his FOFing lanes. Hmmm.

The chainfists still hit on 6's though. I'm considering upgrading the reaper/chainfist termies to ACs for the extra attack, but that's really pricey. If I'm spending the farm anyways, I could take DEssence on all 3 ACs for the cost of a single termie - that would give me a 10 wound 7-termie unit. Torrent of fire + instant death would suck, but seems pretty unlikely.

I'm reluctant to give up my manreaper lord - against *anything* other than mech armies, he's the bomb. And I love the Typhus model. But you're right, he doesn't fit in a tankhunting termie unit. Maybe keep him and deepstrike on his lonesome. Or trade him for the cheesy infiltrating Dspeed manreaper Lord. But cheese for cheese seems in order here

I wonder how Plaguewing would do? 3x7 termies with Reapers, chainfists and tankhunters, 4x7 plaguebearers (to hopefully clean up the FW after the transports go down). I'd have to try to teleport on to get rear shots on his transports as the first order of business, and worry about the Heads later.

For my primary HQ in 1500-2000 points of Death Guard, I run a Terminator Lord with a Manreaper using the Typhus model, deepstriking him solo. My secondary HQ is a converted Champion of Nurgle (added a Raptor jetpack) who has a Great Weapon, Infiltration, and Daemonic Flight. Not the most efficient but it matches what I have on the models. They both have Nurgle's Rot, of course.

The last time I played against Tau I had some very fortunate deployment options for my melta squad - I destroyed a Devilfish on the first turn, which pinned the squad when it disembarked. On the second turn I got my plaguebearers and Terminators (7 models, 2 reaper autocannons with tankhunters, 3 PF and 2 CF), which mopped the floor with his other Firewarriors. His deepstrike drones and Stealth Suits never made it into battle as the game ended before the 3rd turn.

I don't know how I would fare against four Devilfish transports and three Hammerhead tanks, though. That's pretty nasty.

I would field two squads of terminators with two reaper autocannons each and tank hunter. I would also field some rhinos for mobile cover... cut off his fire lanes and force him to move his Hammerheads into a position where you can douse them with the autocannons. The GUO is a waste of points against a skimmer army in general, so I would drop it. I would also take one to two squads of Havocs with 4x plasmagun and infiltrate. You should then be able to bear enough firepower onto his skimmers.

- Greenie

An Autocannon, sponson lascannon pread is about as good as the Tri-Las for less points.

Upon reflection, hiding my infiltrators in the corners would have been pointless. He had 5 SMS's that can fire on anything out of LOS. Sure it's only AP5, but with 20xS5 shots my squads would get whittled down quickly.

Two squads of tank-hunting double-reaper termies that start on the board, along with the las dread and a las pred would probably be the best thing.

I'm reluctant to give up my GUO (my best paintjob in the whole army) though.

I'm not sure about AC/Las preds...I like to DP my preds to keep them shooting, and sometimes even MH them. The savings from AC vs TwLas becomes less important as the upgrades go on. I would be using the pred as a dedicated anti-heavy-tank unit anyways.

My next painting project is a land raider. I'm thinking of running two Rhinos and an HS Landraider as transports/terrain for my 3 PM squads (a la PlagueSpear someone else came up with). A Lasdread and triple las pred rounding out the HS. Have to see how many terminators I can squeeze into the army with all that. Can't fit 7 termies into the Landraider, but I could move the assault/GUO squad around with it if I have to, and assault out of it to boot. And if the Raider is still around after a few termies bite it, it can pick them up and plop them onto an objective.

I'd like to keep it pretty much an all-comers list. If I was tooling against Mech Tau I'd be better off fielding Zilla Nids with 2 tyrants, 3 gunfexes and 3 dakkafexes.

Your list isn't an all comers list right now. You can keep the great unclean one. A list should always have something thats lots of fun to field.

I no longer play my deathguard as they don't have enough guns and relied to heavily on rhino's to transport the men around. I really don't like coffins on wheels thanks to the 4th ed rules.  But if want to deal with mechtau you really need to think about your heavy slots. Its the only force org slot that you can get some really potent firepower. In 1850 I will run 2 mutated hull all lascannon predators and an indirect defiler. In 1500 I'd run 2 of the 3, probably the predators as the defiler is a bit too random for my taste. I'd still run some rhino's, but you need to make a decision if youwant to run terminators or the greater daemon.. cuase you won't be able to do both if you run the predators. The nurgling bases don't do anything except die, save them for fun lists. With that being said, I love the paint on my great unclean one, my manreaper lord is amazing and I've got an awesome looking terminator nurgle captain... I don't get to field all 3, its always a tough choice.

If you want an all comers list you need mobility, firepower and hand to hand. I saw infiltration which is a strong gimmick, but not true mobility. You've got some short range firepower but nothing that a mech list is worried about, they'll fly circles around you. But you do have h2h covered :p

In one tournament I faced off against a falcon, a waveserpent, and 16 vipers with my deathguard. My predator was pretty much immune to being punished, and I suicided a rhino squad to kill her only brightlance viper squad. The game was a tie but I still consider it a win to me, she had so much firepower that I should have lost. This was when starcannons fired 3 shots a peice. I used terrain to hide my boys, daemons and rhino's. On the last turn of the game my great unclean one leaped out of a forest, charged the waveserpent and was lucky enough to down it.

Good luck and lets see what changes you make on your list

Plague spear is awesome. Not to say you cannot pull it off but it is veteran level. Good luck... sounds like you are headed in the right direction.

- Greenie

What is plague spear? I did a bunch of searches and came up with nothing.

Posted By Mnemoch on 03/27/2007 2:26 AM
What is plague spear? I did a bunch of searches and came up with nothing.

Hmm...found reference to it on www.deathguard.org somewhere.  I just tried searching there for it, but only found threads refering to it rather than the original article.  eg >this thread


Basically, Plaguespear is a Landraider full of assault troops, along with 2 Rhinos full of assault or support troops.  You send the whole thing across the center of the table, using the Landraider to partially screen the Rhinos.  Then all the troops jump out and hose down the center of your opponent's army, followed by a charge from the Landraider unit.

Variations include having melta havocs, or Lord + possessed w Talons, or assault Termies, or a BP+CCW squad with flamers or plaspistols in the raider, usually w Furious Charge if they can get it.  The Rhino support squads are usually plasma and bolter.

The idea is to a) pummel the strong center of the opponent's army, and b) cut his army in half.

Not sure that a Raider will work well against Railguns and Fusion though...
.

Thanks.

Plaguespear would be a tough sell against a skimmer army. Predators with mutated hulls are just as tough and can sport 3 lascannons each... thats a plan.

Termies with reapers at max range and some predators is the winner.

Not a lot of Tau armies can hang with 36" terminators with 4 twinlinked S8 shots. Just make sure you keep any Crisis suits off you and you're good to go.

Posted By Strangelooper on 03/21/2007 6:09 AM
His list:
HQ crisis w TwMP, PR, HWtargetarray, HW multitracker

Just a short comment here (as I play mech tau) - the targetting array is not available as hard wired.  It can only be used as a hard point (which means no twin linking of the MP).  So the only way to get a BS5 HQ with twinned MP and PR is to take a Shas 'O.

Hmmm...maybe it was an 'O after all instead of HWTA, I don't recall.  It was certainly BS 5 with TwMP and PR

Thanks for the heads-up on that limitation!  I will ask my opponent about that one.