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Alrighty then, I found another source with some statistics.

npr wrote:"Seventy percent are victims of this practice," Khattab says. "But the good thing is that this percentage reflects a decline in the prevalence. [The percentage] used to be in the 90s."

As recently as 2003, a UNICEF survey found that well over 90 percent of Egyptian women who were or had been married had undergone circumcision.

The reason for some optimism, advocates of eradicating the practice say, lies in changing attitudes among young girls. The latest figures for girls ages 10 to 18 show circumcision rates down to 63 percent in rural areas, and down to 43 percent among urban girls. Among girls who attend urban private schools, the figure drops to 9 percent.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11767534

halonachos wrote:Alrighty then, I found another source with some statistics.

npr wrote:"Seventy percent are victims of this practice," Khattab says. "But the good thing is that this percentage reflects a decline in the prevalence. [The percentage] used to be in the 90s."

As recently as 2003, a UNICEF survey found that well over 90 percent of Egyptian women who were or had been married had undergone circumcision.

The reason for some optimism, advocates of eradicating the practice say, lies in changing attitudes among young girls. The latest figures for girls ages 10 to 18 show circumcision rates down to 63 percent in rural areas, and down to 43 percent among urban girls. Among girls who attend urban private schools, the figure drops to 9 percent.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11767534

The NPR source contradicts what the UNICEF report states in its own methodology section, which indicates that the figure of 97% was only those women who were unmarried.

The second set of statistics is closer to what I've seen, but still much higher than what is often cited by scholarly sources. Specifically the rural rate that I recall is roughly 40%, and the urban roughly 20%.

halonachos wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

sebster wrote:

I know everything and dismiss your opinion...
[/paraphrasing]

Is your crystal ball battery powered or solar?

I'm not gonna continue to argue this with you, because you seem to have all the answers, which is fortunate for us all.

Enjoy the rest of the thread and whatever your witty final retort will be.

Actually Sebster usually does have his gak in tip top shape which makes it annoying to argue with him at first, but it generally makes one try harder.

Unlike some posters here (not directed at you) he and many others like to actually understand the subject before arguing

Egypt is rioting. They'll bring down the government...and put up a supposedly democratic government...which will turn into the same as before or worse, an Islamic government...which they'll riot again...and the cycle will continue.

Its nothing new or to be excited over. We've seen middle east riots/governments replace before. Its not a 'massive historical moment in a good way' as some people describe it; because nothing will come out of it that will last. The middle east will always stay an area that lacks overall stability.

Its time like this that re-affirms that Nihilism is the right philosophy unfortunately...

Mr Hyena wrote: or worse, an Islamic government...

Good to see tolerance levels at maximum strength!

ShumaGorath wrote:

halonachos wrote:That and the leading protest group the "Muslim Brotherhood" aren't exactly the nicest people either.

They're not awful, they're sworn off violence, they don't believe islam is at war with the west, they don't want sharia law. The groups a bit more hard core outside of egypt, but it has a lot of splinters that have no real sway within the broad base of the movement. The majority of egyptians also don't want to live in a state under severe islamic law, they're just the strongest opposition party.

Yep they've sworn off violence. They sound like a bunch of hippy tree huggers to me.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130

Muslim Brotherhood: ‘Prepare Egyptians for war with Israel'
By YAAKOV LAPPIN
02/01/2011 02:00

A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.”

Ghannem praised Egyptian soldiers deployed by President Hosni Mubarak to Egyptian cities, saying they “would not kill their brothers.” He added that Washington was forced to abandon plans to help Mubarak stay in power after “seeing millions head for the streets.”

dogma wrote:

halonachos wrote:Alrighty then, I found another source with some statistics.

npr wrote:"Seventy percent are victims of this practice," Khattab says. "But the good thing is that this percentage reflects a decline in the prevalence. [The percentage] used to be in the 90s."

As recently as 2003, a UNICEF survey found that well over 90 percent of Egyptian women who were or had been married had undergone circumcision.

The reason for some optimism, advocates of eradicating the practice say, lies in changing attitudes among young girls. The latest figures for girls ages 10 to 18 show circumcision rates down to 63 percent in rural areas, and down to 43 percent among urban girls. Among girls who attend urban private schools, the figure drops to 9 percent.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11767534

The NPR source contradicts what the UNICEF report states in its own methodology section, which indicates that the figure of 97% was only those women who were unmarried.

The second set of statistics is closer to what I've seen, but still much higher than what is often cited by scholarly sources. Specifically the rural rate that I recall is roughly 40%, and the urban roughly 20%.

I believe that it was a small typo. Most of the Health Surveys given out by the Egyptian government ask 'ever-married' women from 15-49 years of age. It was the official Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey of 2005 that reported 96% of ever-married women from 15-49 have been circumcised. 'Ever-married' means that they were married at least once in their lives even if they are not currently married.

So I believe that there was a typo on some of the reports that changed 'ever married' to 'never married' based on the fact that the western culture hardly uses the phrase 'ever-married' in a daily circumstance but use 'never married' more often.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

halonachos wrote:That and the leading protest group the "Muslim Brotherhood" aren't exactly the nicest people either.

They're not awful, they're sworn off violence, they don't believe islam is at war with the west, they don't want sharia law. The groups a bit more hard core outside of egypt, but it has a lot of splinters that have no real sway within the broad base of the movement. The majority of egyptians also don't want to live in a state under severe islamic law, they're just the strongest opposition party.

Yep they've sworn off violence. They sound like a bunch of hippy tree huggers to me.
http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=206130

Muslim Brotherhood: ‘Prepare Egyptians for war with Israel'
By YAAKOV LAPPIN
02/01/2011 02:00

A leading member of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt told the Arabic-language Iranian news network Al-Alam on Monday that he would like to see the Egyptian people prepare for war against Israel, according to the Hebrew-language business newspaper Calcalist.

Muhammad Ghannem reportedly told Al- Alam that the Suez Canal should be closed immediately, and that the flow of gas from Egypt to Israel should cease “in order to bring about the downfall of the Mubarak regime.” He added that “the people should be prepared for war against Israel,” saying the world should understand that “the Egyptian people are prepared for anything to get rid of this regime.”

Ghannem praised Egyptian soldiers deployed by President Hosni Mubarak to Egyptian cities, saying they “would not kill their brothers.” He added that Washington was forced to abandon plans to help Mubarak stay in power after “seeing millions head for the streets.”

And McCains on record for wanting to nuke Iran, the post you quoted stressed the fact that individual ideological demagogues with no real power say a lot of gak and then nothing happens because they don't have authority and aren't representative of the movement they report to be a part of. When you get your panties in a twist because captain McHateisrael wants to "prepare for war" against them, try to keep in mind the fact that he has no authority over the military, and is a minority view (hence why you posted one person out of some 80 million saying it). I mean, if you take every pundit and loudmouth at their word when they stated we should "prepare for war", then I'm surprised you don't live in a bomb shelter to protect you from the unified North Korean Iranian invasion of texas where they would rouse La Familia as cocaine addicted suicide bombers who only want to destroy your freedom. There are people like this in every political movement in every country, if it scares you that much stop reading israeli news.

Strawman. A leader for the entity you said was nonviolent called for preparing for war with Israel.

Frazzled wrote:Strawman. A leader for the entity you said was nonviolent called for preparing for war with Israel.

non·vi·o·lent   
[non-vahy-uh-luhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
not violent; free of violence.
2.
peacefully resistant, as in response to or protest against injustice, esp. on moral or philosophical grounds.

I don't think verbal violence really makes someone violent. Didn't you hold the exact opposite view on what constitutes the call to action in the Glenn Beck thread? Kind of a double standard there buddy. I'd also like to note that if the organization has officially sworn off violence and war against the west, then a member within that organization directly contradicts that, it follows that that person would then be censured or disagreed with (as occurred all over egypt today).

But hey, you like to put people in boxes. I get it. It's cute. It makes me remember what its like to be a kid.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Strawman. A leader for the entity you said was nonviolent called for preparing for war with Israel.

non·vi·o·lent   
[non-vahy-uh-luhnt] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
not violent; free of violence.
2.
peacefully resistant, as in response to or protest against injustice, esp. on moral or philosophical grounds.

I don't think verbal violence really makes someone violent. Didn't you hold the exact opposite view on what constitutes the call to action in the Glenn Beck thread? Kind of a double standard there buddy. I'd also like to note that if the organization has officially sworn off violence and war against the west, then a member within that organization directly contradicts that, it follows that that person would then be censured or disagreed with (as occurred all over egypt today).

But hey, you like to put people in boxes. I get it. It's cute. It makes me remember what its like to be a kid.

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.
-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.

And millions in stock in gold companies that he pushes on television.

-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

No. He's not "the leader". Your article doesn't say he's "the leader". A cursory google search shows that he's not "the leader". It also shows that his comments were polar opposites from the organizations stated views on the issue. I think thats the hangup, you don't know enough about the organization in egypt to know who is and is not "the leader" much less what their views are concerning international policy.


Also, it has well more then "thousands' of members.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.

And millions in stock in gold companies that he pushes on television.
***Which again has nothing to do with he topic, unless your on Gold Drillers.


-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

*** Which has been known to say many things, but also has been known to kill people.

halonachos wrote:
I believe that it was a small typo. Most of the Health Surveys given out by the Egyptian government ask 'ever-married' women from 15-49 years of age. It was the official Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey of 2005 that reported 96% of ever-married women from 15-49 have been circumcised. 'Ever-married' means that they were married at least once in their lives even if they are not currently married.

No it wasn't. It specifically says in the article that you cited that it was the UNICEF survey, and the UNICEF survey doesn't report numbers for FGM into the 90's for those that were "ever married".

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.

And millions in stock in gold companies that he pushes on television.
***Which again has nothing to do with he topic, unless your on Gold Drillers.


-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

*** Which has been known to say many things, but also has been known to kill people.

Point out a political entity in the mideast that that doesn't describe.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.

And millions in stock in gold companies that he pushes on television.
***Which again has nothing to do with he topic, unless your on Gold Drillers.


-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

*** Which has been known to say many things, but also has been known to kill people.

Point out a political entity in the mideast that that doesn't describe.

Strawman. Lots of political entities aren't the social fathers of Al Qaeda.

Frazzled wrote:A leader for the entity you said was nonviolent called for preparing for war with Israel.

No, the Jerusalem Post claimed that some guy that might be a member or leader of the Muslim Brotherhood told Al Alam (an unofficial Iranian state news agency) that Egypt should be prepared for war.

I've never heard of Muhammad Ghannem (unless we're talking about the Kuwaiti soccer player), so that's a red flag right there given that the Muslim Brotherhood, especially the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, is highly publicized. I also know that Al-Alam is infamous for reporting falsehoods in order to make the Iranian state look good. For example, they "broke" the story that British sailors admitted to violating Iranian territorial waters.

The only definitive thing here is that the J-Post is fairly reputable, which explains why they noted all of the above facts in their blurb, which you conveniently chose to ignore.

dogma wrote:
The only definitive thing here is that the J-Post is fairly reputable, which explains why they noted all of the above facts in their blurb, which you conveniently chose to ignore.

Wait you're arguing I chose to ignore that the Jersualem Post is fairly repuatable. My bad, you're right the Jerusalem Post is fairly reputable.

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

I'll do this slowly so you get the big words.
-Glenn Beck is in charge of nothing but the voices in his head.

And millions in stock in gold companies that he pushes on television.
***Which again has nothing to do with he topic, unless your on Gold Drillers.


-This guy is the leader of an organization that has a nice habit of stabbing tourists and wants to bring down the current government. It also has thousands of members.

*** Which has been known to say many things, but also has been known to kill people.

Point out a political entity in the mideast that that doesn't describe.

Strawman. Lots of political entities aren't the social fathers of Al Qaeda.

I didn't know we were talking about the CIA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

dogma wrote:
The only definitive thing here is that the J-Post is fairly reputable, which explains why they noted all of the above facts in their blurb, which you conveniently chose to ignore.

Wait you're arguing I chose to ignore that the Jersualem Post is fairly repuatable. My bad, you're right the Jerusalem Post is fairly reputable.

What he's arguing that you chose to ignore is that you posted an article based on spurious and unconfirmed information sourced out of a publication that often lies for political gain. Something you still chose to ignore.

Frazzled wrote:
Strawman. Lots of political entities aren't the social fathers of Al Qaeda.

No, that wasn't a strawman. A Strawman is arguing against something other than what is being said. You said that the Muslim Brotherhood has killed people, and Shuma said that many political entities in the Middle East have killed people. He directly addressed your point.

In any case, Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood are opposed to one another, and have been since extreme members of the latter group joined the former.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you're arguing I chose to ignore that the Jersualem Post is fairly repuatable. My bad, you're right the Jerusalem Post is fairly reputable.

No, that's not what I said. I said that you conveniently chose to ignore the additional information provided by the Jerusalem Post.

If you didn't understand what I wrote, then there is your clarification.

If you did understand what I wrote, and chose to respond as above, then you're violating Rule 1.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Strawman. Lots of political entities aren't the social fathers of Al Qaeda.

No, that wasn't a strawman. A Strawman is arguing against something other than what is being said. You said that the Muslim Brotherhood has killed people, and Shuma said that many political entities in the Middle East have killed people. He directly addressed your point.

In any case, Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood are opposed to one another, and have been since extreme members of the latter group joined the former.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Wait you're arguing I chose to ignore that the Jersualem Post is fairly repuatable. My bad, you're right the Jerusalem Post is fairly reputable.

No, that's not what I said. I said that you conveniently chose to ignore the additional information provided by the Jerusalem Post.

If you didn't understand what I wrote, then there is your clarification.

If you did understand what I wrote, and chose to respond as above, then you're violating Rule 1.

No I am just disagreeing with you. As you have a degree in nothing and I have a degree in nothing on the internet I could care less if you disagree.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, at least you've finally dropped the pretence of having any solid argument.

Either way, Mubarak will step down.

Obama to speak regarding it sometime today. It is reputed that the United States pressured him into moving aside, which makes it likely that the US will at least help him find asylum.

Emperors Faithful wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, at least you've finally dropped the pretence of having any solid argument.

This is the intranets. There is no such thing as a solid argument.

Rare jewels they are, this is true. But a more common occurence is a comprehensible one.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Rare jewels they are, this is true. But a more common occurence is a comprehensible one.

It isn't just the internet, most arguments made by most people are terrible.

dogma wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Rare jewels they are, this is true. But a more common occurence is a comprehensible one.

It isn't just the internet, most arguments made by most people are terrible.

Sources!

dogma wrote:

halonachos wrote:
I believe that it was a small typo. Most of the Health Surveys given out by the Egyptian government ask 'ever-married' women from 15-49 years of age. It was the official Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey of 2005 that reported 96% of ever-married women from 15-49 have been circumcised. 'Ever-married' means that they were married at least once in their lives even if they are not currently married.

No it wasn't. It specifically says in the article that you cited that it was the UNICEF survey, and the UNICEF survey doesn't report numbers for FGM into the 90's for those that were "ever married".

npr wrote:As recently as 2003, a UNICEF survey found that well over 90 percent of Egyptian women who were or had been married had undergone circumcision.

religious tolerance wrote:A 2005 report by UNICEF suggested that 97% of Egyptian women between the ages of 15 and 49 who have never been married have undergone some form of FGM or circumcision.

The difference between 'never married' and 'ever married' is the letter 'n'

From the 2005 UNICEF report:

UNICEF wrote:The respondents are women aged 15–49, except in Egypt, northern Sudan and Yemen, where the sample of respondents includes only women who have been married.

UNICEF wrote:According to the most recent DHS data (2003), among women aged 15–49 who are or have been married the prevalence rate is 97 per cent.

the report

So yeah dogma I have a lot of sources while you have listed absolutely none besides the fact that one of them may of had a typo in it. UNICEF reported those statistics, the Egyptian government reported those statistics, and the NPR reported those same statistics. Religious Tolerance.org reports the same statistics, but list it as 'never married' instead of 'ever married'. Like I said, probably a typo unless it takes only one written report to negate several other written reports.

dogma wrote:When I say "looking for war" I mean "looking to involve the United States in the conflict on a military level".

It wasn't merely opposing Japanese expansion. He actively looked for a way to do an end-run around neutrality legislation, and later entered into negotiations with Churchill over direct, military involvement. Then there's his support for intervention in the fireside chats, and support for a peacetime draft.

The guy didn't want WWII to start, but he wasn't going to sit it out either.

Yeah, all true, I think we're agreeing on everything here.

On a completely unrelated topic, FDR was awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:Is your crystal ball battery powered or solar?

I'm not gonna continue to argue this with you, because you seem to have all the answers, which is fortunate for us all.

Enjoy the rest of the thread and whatever your witty final retort will be.

Well that's all a bit sad really. Maybe I could have gone a little easier, but there really isn't a polite way to explain to someone their point makes no sense. Anyhow, you're happy with your view of the world, and it's a shame that we can't make you realise that your view is nonsensical, but there's not really much we can do about it if you're just going to pack up your toys and go home.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:Actually Sebster usually does have his gak in tip top shape which makes it annoying to argue with him at first, but it generally makes one try harder.

Thankyou for the compliment.

On the issue of women's rights in Egypt, I'll agree with you that they're in very poor shape, but I do wonder how that relates to political reform. If anything, the lack of social progress in women's rights only makes the case for democratic reform stronger, yeah?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:Egypt is rioting. They'll bring down the government...and put up a supposedly democratic government...which will turn into the same as before or worse, an Islamic government...which they'll riot again...and the cycle will continue.

Yeah, there's always dangers to new democracies, but they can survive. The fact that you're living in a democracy is pretty strong evidence of that.

Its time like this that re-affirms that Nihilism is the right philosophy unfortunately...

No, it's just evidence that you're using your Nihilism to make Nihilist predictions, and declaring those predictions evidence of your Nihilistic worldview.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:Obama to speak regarding it sometime today. It is reputed that the United States pressured him into moving aside, which makes it likely that the US will at least help him find asylum.

Obama's speach will be interesting.

I'm still calling Saudi Arabia for Mubarak's new home.

It does make the civil reform more important, but if you notice they banned FGM back in the 90's and tried before that as well. In fact they just recently dropped from 97% to in the 70% area because Mubarak's wife championed that cause.

Its starting to change, but it needs to stop.

Anywho, Mubarak plans to back down in September I guess. I think that the timeline is for the best seeing as though it will allow them to keep stability while the opposing political factions select a leader. The Egyptians need to face it, they don't have a ready leader to replace Mubarak and they need time to find one. We already saw the army start to back away from Mubarak so I can doubt that they will carry out any massacres for him.

As for Mubarak's home I'll bet Saudi Arabia or somewhere in Europe.