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Albatross wrote:Of course there are. There isn't anywhere near the level of hatred and distrust of the Autistic as there is of the police force, though. In terms of the sympathy vote, Autistic 'child' VS Police is a no-win for the cops.

Really? I thought that the anti-police rhetoric and hatred which you and other posters are referring to is the- "The police stopped me in the street for no reason other than my huge string of criminal convictions...it's not fair!!" or "That policeman hit me when I was only going about my business looting..." kind. And thus, it's not related to this thread.


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Albatross wrote:
Just off the top of my head, if the kid was refusing to leave the premises, that's tresspassing. A form of wrongdoing.

Or the water. And even then that doesn't cover the rest of the story.

No, I'm talking about the juvenile anti-authoritarian posturing of 'Yeah, feth the po-lice! Teenage rebellion is groovy, man!' that most people grow out of when they move out of student halls/mum and dad's house, but is still inexplicably retained by the the tragically 'right-on'. And yes, that is related to this thread.

Albatross wrote:No, I'm talking about the juvenile anti-authoritarian posturing of 'Yeah, feth the po-lice! Teenage rebellion is groovy, man!' that most people grow out of when they move out of student halls/mum and dad's house, but is still inexplicably retained by the the tragically 'right-on'. And yes, that is related to this thread.

Really? Please do explain how it is related; as, being someone who is against that sort of teenage BS, I would certainly agree with you that it should be stopped.

No, that's not what that means. He was asking if I was suggesting that the judge thought that when handling the case.

Ah, I missed that. Mea culpa and my appologies to SDF.

Why did the pool staff feel it necessary to call the police?

This is interesting.
Plus I will add, why did they lock him up to such extent. There must have been things going on there that we are not told about since I have a hard time seeing police officers go in against the advice of the carers and picking up a kid and then just for fun locking him in cuffed. Not that it never occurs, it is just v e are y rare in western countries.

If and I mean IF this is the case then I am indeed against the actions of the police but meanwhile I trust Occham enough not to believe it.

Of course there are. There isn't anywhere near the level of hatred and distrust of the Autistic as there is of the police force, though. In terms of the sympathy vote, Autistic 'child' VS Police is a no-win for the cops.

I would say private security firms top this but that is just my opinion but can you provide a source for this?

SDFarsight wrote:

Albatross wrote:No, I'm talking about the juvenile anti-authoritarian posturing of 'Yeah, feth the po-lice! Teenage rebellion is groovy, man!' that most people grow out of when they move out of student halls/mum and dad's house, but is still inexplicably retained by the the tragically 'right-on'. And yes, that is related to this thread.

Really? Please do explain how it is related; as, being someone who is against that sort of teenage BS, I would certainly agree with you that it should be stopped.

You seriously don't think anti-authoritarian bias plays into some people's perceptions of this event? That there's no expectation that the police are pre-disposed to discriminate against minorities, even though incidents of discrimination are overwhelmingly the exception and not the rule?

I think you're wasting my time, frankly.

You seriously don't think anti-authoritarian bias plays into some people's perceptions of this event? That there's no expectation that the police are pre-disposed to discriminate against minorities, even though incidents of discrimination are overwhelmingly the exception and not the rule?

I agree.
This IS a hard fact.

This very common phenomenon is actually even thought and explained in special courses for police and security groups since they are not allowed to work unless they have gone through this properly. There you learn how common this is, how people think and see different things and how to react to the public bias.
It IS a common thing and it IS a big problem and it DOES cost the society tons of money and resources since it clogs up the time of the courts to a high degree.

Pyriel- wrote:

Of course there are. There isn't anywhere near the level of hatred and distrust of the Autistic as there is of the police force, though. In terms of the sympathy vote, Autistic 'child' VS Police is a no-win for the cops.

I would say private security firms top this but that is just my opinion but can you provide a source for this?

http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Police-Distrust-Blamed-For-Riots_41811.html
That's one of many articles on the subject. Obviously, there are no direct figures showing either/or preferences for Autistic people vs. the Police, but it seems pretty self-evident that people would be inclined to distrust and hate coppers, in their role as organs of the state.

Albatross wrote:

SDFarsight wrote:

Albatross wrote:No, I'm talking about the juvenile anti-authoritarian posturing of 'Yeah, feth the po-lice! Teenage rebellion is groovy, man!' that most people grow out of when they move out of student halls/mum and dad's house, but is still inexplicably retained by the the tragically 'right-on'. And yes, that is related to this thread.

Really? Please do explain how it is related; as, being someone who is against that sort of teenage BS, I would certainly agree with you that it should be stopped.

You seriously don't think anti-authoritarian bias plays into some people's perceptions of this event? That there's no expectation that the police are pre-disposed to discriminate against minorities, even though incidents of discrimination are overwhelmingly the exception and not the rule?

I think you're wasting my time, frankly.

Well some people might, but I don't hold that view. And I've seen much more discrimination (or at least, ignorance) in this thread against Autistic people than against the police. I haven't seen anyone in this thread saying anything along the lines of- "of course the police were in the wrong, they're always hunting out minorities for kicks....".

You know I'm still waiting on the link, SDFarsight.

Hazardous Harry wrote:You know I'm still waiting on the link, SDFarsight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3766697.stm

http://www.autism-help.org/points-autism-rights-movement.htm

http://asperger.tribe.net/thread/8725f112-ca77-4a8a-be19-38fb08728089

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWnDPpfpLmM

Hazardous Harry wrote:Yeah, you've made it clear that some people are against a cure, but you haven't given a reason why anyone (in their right mind) would be against it.

At least provide a link or something.

And my 2 cents: Why? Why else do you think minorities don't want to be sidelined or eradicated? It's a tiny wee bit offensive. The focus to detailed subjects it gives can benefit people greatly. (See BBC article)

Pyriel- wrote:

Well I guess that puts a level on it then. So you do in fact think of autistic people as animals. It would rather explain your attitude and ideas about how to "handle them". Shock collars and spaying ok with you?

Your ranting assumptions are indeed highly amusing. Besdies I have no idea what "spaying" is, dunno, maybe something you do in your basement but I certainly dont.

Now keep assuming, please, why leave it at dogs? Do the classical thing and compare me to Hitler too.
Normal people find out things before assuming that level of crap about people but do continue, speaks loads about you IQ you self righteous hypocrite.

I said "animals". You said "dogs". Spaying is removing their nuts so they can't breed - a common operation for dogs and other similar pets.

Maybe you should read again what I wrote. Its your poor choice of language that gives the impression you perceive autistic people as animals. When this is pointed out, you do nothing to suggest otherwise. Thus, you still appear to think of them as animals.

It speaks volumes about your opinions that you try to insult my intelligence, and call me a self-righteous hypocrite. Hypocrite? Please do explain the hypocritical parts of my post? You obviously just tacked "self-righteous" on there because you thought it sounded clever, but where is the hypocrisy?


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Pyriel- wrote:

Finding out things before assuming crap about people......that sounds familiar..and yet you have the nerve to call ArbeitsSchu a hypocrite.

But forget about that, how about we just stop "attacking the poster and not the issue"?

I really thought you would refrain from bringing that up while yourself having the nerve to accuse police officers of things...pot calling kettle anyone?

But yes lets stop the attacks shall we. That arbiter character pissed me of way to much with his holier then thou assumptions. You see I never in the thread "assumed" anything about anybody on the level of comparing them to dogs. If he would act like a normal person he could simply you know...ask.

.

I did ask. That;s why my question had a question mark, and was phrased as a question. Do you understand that autistic people are not animals? Yes or no? If you DO maybe you should think about how you phrase things when you discuss them, so it doesn't read as if you think they are animals.


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There is an overall assumption here that the Police will always act sensibly, correctly, and for good reason, and take into account any relevant factors at the time of their actions. Based on that assumption, its completely reasonable that people would look at the case and say "Oh well he must have etc etce"."They were only doing etc etec..".

This assumption is false. Very often the Police will ignore any and all information that is offered by carers or other related professional, dismissing them as "bystanders". Often once they have incarcerated someone with any sort of mental health issue (even Autism, which technically isn't) they have no real concept of what to do with them or how to act towards them. Its common for them to decide that someone "strange in manner" is drunk, and treat them as such. It is a common occurrence here to see Police cars cruising slowly around the local NHS Trust buildings looking for someone to take a "nutter" off their hands. They often turn up at the Infirmary trying to drop off the mentally ill because they have received no proper training in what to do when they find someone like that. This is not just autistic people, but anyone "mentally ill". Likewise, there is an overwhelming tendency to see invisible disabilities as a "get out of jail free" card, an extension of popular perceptions today about disability. Based on this (more accurate) summation of Police activities, it becomes more obvious why the Judge ruled against them. They acted in an inappropriate fashion, against good practice. I don't know about overseas, where they have some odd ideas about Autism, and Police activities but here, they acted wrongly.

Frazzled wrote:

Lord Scythican wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:The police were supposed to do the things they were criticised by the court for not doing.

It wasn't their individual fault they didn't. They had not had sufficient training for such situations. The judgement was against the force rather than the individual officers.

The award was to compensate the victim. £28,000 is a trivial amount of money for a police force and would not act as a punishment.

What training is going to help? Again, courts are infamous for saying you did wrong without saying what else to do. What else could they have done?Hence, as its not a criminal issue I'd no longer respond to these calls and make it public.

http://www.crisisprevention.com/

CPI training would have been adequate. With proper training two people could have restrained the person without submitting him to handcuffs, leg restraints, and the van. I know for a fact because I have to restrain autisistic students frequently. The CPI method is non-violent and does not harm the person if techniques are applied correctly.

Of course not everyone has the training. In my school district only special education teachers recieved the training. However starting this year, each school has to have four certified CPI team members. One has to be a Special Education Teacher, another a Principal, and a third has to be a General Education Teacher. The fourth can be some other faculty member.

So you say. Do you know the size of the 16 year old?

How long do they have to restrain him? Whats the likelihood of injury to them while they are sitting around holding him? Whats the opportunity cost that they could be pursuing REAL crimes and not babysitting Jr.?

Well as for the real crimes I cannot say. However the size of the kid doesn't matter much if you know the proper techniques. A few years ago I had 5 autistic kids in my classroom with only one aide. One of the kids was over 6 foot (I am under 6 btw). He was 21 and a very big kid. When he had one of his fits it took everything we could to restrain him.

I had to restrain the kid several times a day for 5 years, (he started when he was 16). Truth be told this part of my job wore me down after a few years. I have since transfered to working with autistic children who are between the ages of 9-11.

Now I am acting like this is all easy, but I have to admit that first year was pretty rough. It took awhile for me to really get a hang of the of the techniques. I can't see the police officers having a lot of chances to practice these techniques in a real world situation.

And my 2 cents: Why? Why else do you think minorities don't want to be sidelined or eradicated? It's a tiny wee bit offensive. The focus to detailed subjects it gives can benefit people greatly. (See BBC article)

You dont think the answer to that might just as well be a very negative one for said minorities?
Dont go overboard with the victimization card.

I said "animals". You said "dogs"

I wasnt the one saying badly behaved dogs.

Its your poor choice of language that gives the impression you perceive autistic people as animals. When this is pointed out, you do nothing to suggest otherwise. Thus, you still appear to think of them as animals.

It is your own crappy over assumption and your own mind that let you to that.
To point out my disgust with your self righteous attitude I simply choosed not to respond to it other then with a blank to see if you would keep building on said assumptions that are based on your guesses only. And I was right.
To put it in other words, I am not bothered to defend some crap about myself that is not true. If I was some sort of hobby hitler like you assume I am I wouldnt have the job I have.

It speaks volumes about your opinions that you try to insult my intelligence, and call me a self-righteous hypocrite

Glad that you can at least speak. After your assumption antics I had my doubts.
The hypocricy is in someone assuming way to much about someone else without even asking and then being oh so insulted when cornered about this. If you dont like self righteous maybe holier then thou fits you better.

Do you understand that autistic people are not animals? Yes or no?

Do you understand that I didnt nor dont deign to even meet that s**t with a serious answer or was that to hard to swallow for your self esteem?

This assumption is false. Very often the Police will ignore any and all information that is offered by carers or other related professional, dismissing them as "bystanders".

Source on this?

Yes it does happen but far from as often as you want it to seem or let me ask you this: Do you personally have any dealings with the police on a professional level or are you just repeating things you heard or read in popular media?

Its common for them to decide that someone "strange in manner" is drunk, and treat them as such.

Not only common but they do it all the time and this is as they should!
IF there is no qualified person that can ID him/her self on spot to tell otherwise the police will work as if it a worst case. This is for their own and the public safety and you are not permitted to work unless you have gone through the very training that teaches you that this is the case.

They often turn up at the Infirmary trying to drop off the mentally ill because they have received no proper training in what to do when they find someone like that.

Not the fault of the police officers but in those cases it´s the fault of the people in charge of synchronizing different units. There are special staff trained to take care of mentally ill, special drug abusers etc, they all fall under law enforcement and special healthcare. In a perfect world staff from these sectors would accompany "normal" police officers at all times but this is not a perfect world.
In a perfect world the correct person will be left to the correct staff at the proper time but often this is not possible due to lack of personell and in those cases private contractors are often hired to fill in the spots.

Based on this (more accurate) summation of Police activities

And yet yo have absolutely no clue how or rather why, "normal" police activities are how they are.

You see I too was in a court room once with the lawyer of a druggie trying to pin crap on me, all the lame rethorics you try to use here were used against me, he was suffering abuse by me, he might have been ill, he did not have any blood disease so you are at fault for treating him to rough blablabla.
Judge cleared me of everything, even laughed and called the lawyer incompetent and explained that what I did was out of necessity and straight out of the manual that is written to safeguard me, the public and the perp.
To bad the public is so gakking stupid that they always "assume" things on the side of the underdog that is being "roughed up" by the police themselves since this is all they see and all they understand.

I don't know about overseas, where they have some odd ideas about Autism, and Police activities but here, they acted wrongly.

Unless they blatantly violated the rules of conduct there should be no special regard for people who act "funny", be it mentally ill, druggies etc and there are reasons for this.
You are taken down, restrained, screwing your sensitive feelings until proper staff can evaluate you and take proper actions (removing restraints, thoroughly checking up medical background etc).
It can take a few minutes or way longer depending on circumstances.




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Now I am acting like this is all easy, but I have to admit that first year was pretty rough. It took awhile for me to really get a hang of the of the techniques. I can't see the police officers having a lot of chances to practice these techniques in a real world situation.

Yeah, practice is everything!
Even specialist staff have it rough and "ease" comes after a long time of constant practice.
Police dont have the time nor budget to be super proficient in all and every special case so their MO is one that covers as much as possible while making safety be way more important then sensitivity.

Pyriel- wrote:

And my 2 cents: Why? Why else do you think minorities don't want to be sidelined or eradicated? It's a tiny wee bit offensive. The focus to detailed subjects it gives can benefit people greatly. (See BBC article)

You dont think the answer to that might just as well be a very negative one for said minorities?

I thought that seeking equality was a positive thing, really.

Dont go overboard with the victimization card.

Were you replying to someone else, or does my simple act of showing examples of discrimination when prompted count as "going overboard with the victimization card"?

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I said "animals". You said "dogs". Spaying is removing their nuts so they can't breed - a common operation for dogs and other similar pets.

Strictly speaking, that's Neutering. Spaying is for female animals.

Pyriel : For someone who gets so bent out of shape about "assumptions", you make a hell of a lot of them. I don't see much point in giving you my credentials or experience, because with or without them you will 'assume' that you know better. Please don't assume to tell me what I do or do not know about mental health or the Police, TYVM. And you do need to work on your language skills as far as speaking about autistic people is concerned., and maybe not reinforce that apparent attitude with further comments?

Assuming that a person is drunk when they are not is ridiculous, harmful, and potentially fatal. There is no justification for it. I have no idea what you are trying to say about officers trying to dump people in the local infirmary, your grammar is too confused. But again, this is something that should not be happening, and does not require police to be accompanied by specially trained personnel or anything of the sort.

Regardless, these officers acted inappropriately, against good practice, and should be receiving proper training in the near future, as will all forces, as and when such training is correctly put in place and enforced. The actions to make that happen are occurring right now, along with a lot of other work based around the recent Autism Act.

(Autism training is available for free, so it doesn't affect Police budgets, by the way.)


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kronk wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
I said "animals". You said "dogs". Spaying is removing their nuts so they can't breed - a common operation for dogs and other similar pets.

Strictly speaking, that's Neutering. Spaying is for female animals.

Some call it debollocking as well. My cat still hasn't forgiven me yet. Any which way, its not something one should be doing to Autistic People, and Pyriel suffers from terrible word choice if he wants people to assume he isn't talking about autistic people like animals.

I thought that seeking equality was a positive thing, really.

In most cases equality is a positive thing indeed, in some it is not.

Besides this is not what I asked you.
I asked if you dont consider cases where a minority, be it ethnic, religious or other, that wants to maintain its ways, could be a bad thing, a very bad thing actually.
Funny, coming from someone who fights for total equality.

Were you replying to someone else, or does my simple act of showing examples of discrimination when prompted count as "going overboard with the victimization card"?

Only when going overboard against one side all the time is it called victimization.

Pyriel : For someone who gets so bent out of shape about "assumptions", you make a hell of a lot of them.

Of course I do, after all I choose to play along side your own rules. Can you dish it out then dont complain if others do too.

I don't see much point in giving you my credentials or experience, because with or without them you will 'assume' that you know better.

Yet again you pretend to know me and assume to much and yet again you fail miserably.
So far with the information I have I am the one who knows better based on experience. Now I cant know what it is that you do for a living but do tell, if you have work experience that goes beyond mine I will grant you that. I might be stubborn but I am not stupid.

So, I´m waiting, the credentials please. If there are any relevant I will actually listen to you since although we dont share opinions I will do have respect for you contrary to currently.

Assuming that a person is drunk when they are not is ridiculous, harmful, and potentially fatal.

Drunk is just an example showing that assumptions must take place and gravitate towards worse things then in reality. This can also be the case with the police officers and the kid in the pool but we dont know the exact details from all sides.
Assuming anything other then the worst is what is really ridiculous, dangerous and harmful. We are talking generic cases also and not some overly obvious crap with police thinking someone with a bullet wound to the head is just slightly drunk.

I am often forced by law and written down MO to assume the absolutely worst in people I handle, both from a mental point as well as a strictly physical one, do you care to prove me wrong on this and if so what facts do you base it on?

Now: Did you or did you not actually participate and pass relevant courses held for police and security that teach normal MO? If not then what the hell are you babbling about, your feelings of how things should be done are completely irrelevant.

and does not require police to be accompanied by specially trained personnel or anything of the sort.

Again, what exactly do you k n o w about this?

(Autism training is available for free, so it doesn't affect Police budgets, by the way.)

Yes it does and this shows how detached from reality you are.
Courses take time and time is what police are paid for to do active job.
The budget will have to put said officer in an often over a week long course (just legal basics for low level security here takes 9 whole 8 hour days).

Do you even know what you are talking about or are these just your cozy should-be feelings?

Pyriel- wrote:

I thought that seeking equality was a positive thing, really.

In most cases equality is a positive thing indeed, in some it is not.

Besides this is not what I asked you.
I asked if you dont consider cases where a minority, be it ethnic, religious or other, that wants to maintain its ways, could be a bad thing, a very bad thing actually.
Funny, coming from someone who fights for total equality.

Oh well in that case, it depends. I mean, letting people to conduct ritual killings just because it's their culture won't be a fair society.

Were you replying to someone else, or does my simple act of showing examples of discrimination when prompted count as "going overboard with the victimization card"?

Only when going overboard against one side all the time is it called victimization.

And? Are you suggesting that I was doing that? If so, how?

Pyriel- wrote:

I thought that seeking equality was a positive thing, really.

In most cases equality is a positive thing indeed, in some it is not.

Besides this is not what I asked you.
I asked if you dont consider cases where a minority, be it ethnic, religious or other, that wants to maintain its ways, could be a bad thing, a very bad thing actually.
Funny, coming from someone who fights for total equality.

Were you replying to someone else, or does my simple act of showing examples of discrimination when prompted count as "going overboard with the victimization card"?

Only when going overboard against one side all the time is it called victimization.

Pyriel : For someone who gets so bent out of shape about "assumptions", you make a hell of a lot of them.

Of course I do, after all I choose to play along side your own rules. Can you dish it out then dont complain if others do too.

I don't see much point in giving you my credentials or experience, because with or without them you will 'assume' that you know better.

Yet again you pretend to know me and assume to much and yet again you fail miserably.
So far with the information I have I am the one who knows better based on experience. Now I cant know what it is that you do for a living but do tell, if you have work experience that goes beyond mine I will grant you that. I might be stubborn but I am not stupid.

So, I´m waiting, the credentials please. If there are any relevant I will actually listen to you since although we dont share opinions I will do have respect for you contrary to currently.

Assuming that a person is drunk when they are not is ridiculous, harmful, and potentially fatal.

Drunk is just an example showing that assumptions must take place and gravitate towards worse things then in reality. This can also be the case with the police officers and the kid in the pool but we dont know the exact details from all sides.
Assuming anything other then the worst is what is really ridiculous, dangerous and harmful. We are talking generic cases also and not some overly obvious crap with police thinking someone with a bullet wound to the head is just slightly drunk.

I am often forced by law and written down MO to assume the absolutely worst in people I handle, both from a mental point as well as a strictly physical one, do you care to prove me wrong on this and if so what facts do you base it on?

Now: Did you or did you not actually participate and pass relevant courses held for police and security that teach normal MO? If not then what the hell are you babbling about, your feelings of how things should be done are completely irrelevant.

and does not require police to be accompanied by specially trained personnel or anything of the sort.

Again, what exactly do you k n o w about this?

(Autism training is available for free, so it doesn't affect Police budgets, by the way.)

Yes it does and this shows how detached from reality you are.
Courses take time and time is what police are paid for to do active job.
The budget will have to put said officer in an often over a week long course (just legal basics for low level security here takes 9 whole 8 hour days).

Do you even know what you are talking about or are these just your cozy should-be feelings?

You were making assumptions long before I pointed out your poor choice of phrasing.

Also, I am not talking about my "feelings" or "wishes". Its merely a happy coincidence that my desire to see the Police properly trained to deal with situations involving Autism is also echoed by local and national authorities, Mental Health services, learning disability services, the NAS, Mind, autistic people in general, and quite probably the Metropolitan Police, on account of them having to now make a massive payout because their officers lacked the proper training. This might not be the case wherever you come from, but it is here.

Considering I spent a fair part of yesterday talking to the people who provide the FREE training then I think I can safely say that the FREE training is in fact FREE. Unless all of those representatives from the NAS and similar groups were just straight up lying to everyone in the room, including the Department of Health representative, and representatives from a dozen local authorities. The most pertinent question raised about the FREE training that costs NOTHING because it is FREE is whether there should be some kind of independent body funded by government but removed from it that can accredit the training to create some kind of universal standard for Autism Training in the UK. There is no current standard, and bad training can be more destructive than no training at all, even when it is FREE. Basic awareness training is relatively straightforward and does not take weeks or months to provide. Nobody is suggesting that Police officers should be DISCO trained diagnosticians. It's BASIC AWARENESS. A short concise program to make sure that they don't make a situation worse by diving in like a bunch of half-trained thugs. This is applicable to the UK. I can't tell what the tiny flag on your info is, and frankly I haven't bothered to look that hard, but I gather that you are not talking about experience in British policing or mental health. Thus i wonder how much your apparently massive experience is really valid to anything at all? (I am also assuming that English is not your first language, because some of what you are typing doesn't really make much sense.)

Incidentally, unless I missed the post where you explained it, I haven't seen your "credentials" beyond that "handling" comment. I only hope that your tone here isn't reflective of whatever "training" you might have had. If it involves making disparaging comments about people's intelligence then I can't imagine you make autistic people feel very safe having you around.


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I just looked closer at the flag. Its Swedish is it not? Sweden, which has come up with such interesting ideas as "lack of sunlight causes Autism" and "Vinyl flooring/smoking mothers cause Autism." I'm also fairly sure that Sweden is still subscribing to the otherwise discredited concept that the MMR jab causes Autism as well. OKydoky then.


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Slight aside: SDFarsight, I haven't been on WP for ages. You might just have tickled my interest enough to go back and have a poke around again, see what's going on. Do they still have an IRC forum?

SDFarsight wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:You know I'm still waiting on the link, SDFarsight.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3766697.stm

A form of autism, one which cannot be accurately diagnosed posthumously at all. Especially considering Michelangelo, which was pure speculation.

http://www.autism-help.org/points-autism-rights-movement.htm

"The basis of the movement is the view that Autism is not a disorder but simply a different way of being."

"The movement is controversial and has been criticized by some parents of autistic children who disagree with its anti-cure and pro-neurodiversity views."

Yeah, I wonder why.

http://asperger.tribe.net/thread/8725f112-ca77-4a8a-be19-38fb08728089

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWnDPpfpLmM

A funny play on words, but I doubt anyone but you would actually take it seriously.

The video won't load, but if I doubt it's any better than the rubbish you've been posting.

And my 2 cents: Why? Why else do you think minorities don't want to be sidelined or eradicated? It's a tiny wee bit offensive. The focus to detailed subjects it gives can benefit people greatly. (See BBC article)

Seeking a cure for autism is not the equivalent of seeking a 'cure' to red hair, black skin or judaism. Stop pretending it is, because that is insulting.

Hazardous Harry wrote:*snip*

I really don't see why you're so hung-up on the fact that the Autistic Rights movement is real, supported and carries a moral message.

Yes, Aspergers syndrome is a form of Autism, on the Autistic Spectrum. And it's not like only dead people are said to have it.

Yes, some parents are against it; indeed, one of the points of the movement is to give adult Autistic people a say in charities and other establishments, rather than giving parents the monopoly. Not that the movement is against parents per se, indeed many parents support it. I say "movement", it's not like there's a club card or anything- the beautiful thing is that many people just take the values for granted rather than being actively involved in the cause.

While not being particularly anti-cure, the NAS (Britain's biggest authority on Autism) recognises the anti-cure Autistic Rights movement, advising parents to at least consider its views. The NAS also condemned Autism Speaks (their American counterpart) for their negative publicity, daemonising the condition to scare parents into giving donations for a cure.

http://www.autism.org.uk/en-gb/about-autism/autism-and-asperger-syndrome-an-introduction/what-are-the-causes-is-there-a-cure/is-there-a-cure.aspx

There is a growing movement among activist adults with autism and Asperger syndrome who don't think in terms of 'curing' a disorder but instead of celebrating difference. Although this page has been written primarily for the parents of newly-diagnosed children, it may be helpful to note the viewpoints of some adults with autism spectrum disorders, who don't think in terms of 'curing' a disorder but instead of celebrating difference. (In fact, people with a desire to cure autism are sometimes known by adults on the spectrum as 'curebies'.) Please take time to read their viewpoints below.

Spoiler:

Aspies for Freedom
"We know that autism is not a disease, and we oppose any attempts to 'cure' someone of an autism spectrum condition, or any attempts to make them 'normal' against their will."

The Autistic Liberation Front
A posting on Althouse.

Autistic Liberation Front fights the 'oppressors searching for a cure'
By David Harrison and Tony Freinberg. From the Sunday Telegraph. Includes positive comment from Vernon Beauchamp, our Chief Executive.

autistics.org
"Resources by and for persons on the autism spectrum".

Don't mourn for us
by Jim Sinclair. Originally published in the Autism Network International newsletter, Our voice, Volume 1, Number 3, 1993.

Institute for the Study of the Neurologically Typical
Includes thoughts on treatment for neurotypicals (people who do not have an autism spectrum disorder [ASD]) and "What to do if you suspect your child has NT". A humorous site born of outrage at attitudes to ASDs.

neurodiversity.org
"Honouring the diversity of human wiring" This link takes you straight to their extensive collection of thoughts on 'curing' autism.

Sociological and cultural aspects of autism
An in-depth article about autistic culture in Wikipedia.

Is autism really a disorder?
Luke Beardon, Senior Lecturer in Autism, The Autism Centre, Sheffield Hallam University

You were making assumptions long before I pointed out your poor choice of phrasing.

I wasnt the one going overboard using badly behaved god analogues but nice try.

Also, I am not talking about my "feelings" or "wishes".

So you speak with "wishes" as a basis while I speak with personal experience. Leaving it at that is there anything you would like to ask me about these things so that you may learn how things in real life work?
I grant you that, in a perfect society with limitless police budgets officers would indeed have the training and time and backup and extra staff needed to handle all kinds of odd cases (and no, dont compare "odd" to badly behaved dogs again) with a perfect approach towards every ones feelings, safety and what have you but this is not the case and by applying "wishful thinking" you cast a lot of unrealistic crap on the police.
I would like you to try out that line of work with the training required to do it and then see what you think.

Considering I spent a fair part of yesterday talking to the people who provide the FREE training then I think I can safely say that the FREE training is in fact FREE.

The training s free but the time it takes is not free. What is so hard to understand about this? Who pays for the officers replacements while they are away for a weeks "free" training? And dont come with some "oh it just takes two hours" because then it´s not anything considered real training. The shortest training I have been to that is required for work took 3 days (and yes the employer had to budget this since during my paid 3 days I did not actually do any real work) and it didnt teach anything new but just some repetitions.

If you...as a historian is it (?) ever hire people to do work for you and of they go taking "free" courses while you still pay their monthly salary who the hell is going to fill in their places as your employees? Oh you have to hire replacements but that´s ok, after all its free. Last tiem I checked the state does not provide compensation to cover the loss of income/work caused by training courses but who knows, that might differ from country to country.

Incidentally, unless I missed the post where you explained it, I haven't seen your "credentials" beyond that "handling" comment. I only hope that your tone here isn't reflective of whatever "training" you might have had. If it involves making disparaging comments about people's intelligence then I can't imagine you make autistic people feel very safe having you around.

Indeed you missed more then you realize.
With your insulting assumptions I cant imagine anyone taking your historian "wish" experiences as anything other then a joke when it comes to police work.

But ok, wanna know why you pissed me of so much with your god comment? 3 years ago I actually got a collegue fired over abusing a mentally handicapped person in prison custody where I could just have let it be.
Damn, why did I do that, I clearly hate autistics and other "madly behaved dogs".
Now you know and next time you say anything degrading about my work ethics I will have your insulting a** reported!

I just looked closer at the flag. Its Swedish is it not? Sweden, which has come up with such interesting ideas as "lack of sunlight causes Autism" and "Vinyl flooring/smoking mothers cause Autism.

Sweden is still subscribing to the otherwise discredited concept that the MMR jab causes Autism as well. OKydoky then.

So? And what the hell does that have to do with me in person you condescending prick!

Did you her me pick your avatar flag and trash your country just to try and earn some cheap point against you in person?
I had just about enough of you. Reported!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, some parents are against it; indeed, one of the points of the movement is to give adult Autistic people a say in charities and other establishments, rather than giving parents the monopoly. Not that the movement is against parents per se, indeed many parents support it. I say "movement", it's not like there's a club card or anything- the beautiful thing is that many people just take the values for granted rather than being actively involved in the cause.

So? That doesnt prove a thing. Some parents are for it and some parents actually wish their autistic kids would have been born with cancer, at least that would be way more "simple" for them.
Not my words though. Read that on a forum for parents to autistic kids.

Wonder what new assumptions that arbeits joke will make out of this now.

Pyriel- wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, some parents are against it; indeed, one of the points of the movement is to give adult Autistic people a say in charities and other establishments, rather than giving parents the monopoly. Not that the movement is against parents per se, indeed many parents support it. I say "movement", it's not like there's a club card or anything- the beautiful thing is that many people just take the values for granted rather than being actively involved in the cause.

So? That doesnt prove a thing. Some parents are for it and some parents actually wish their autistic kids would have been born with cancer, at least that would be way more "simple" for them.
Not my words though. Read that on a forum for parents to autistic kids.

Wonder what new assumptions that arbeits joke will make out of this now.

So it's a good thing that the National Autistic Society advertises the cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pyriel- wrote:
So? And what the hell does that have to do with me in person you condescending prick!

Did you her me pick your avatar flag and trash your country just to try and earn some cheap point against you in person?
I had just about enough of you. Reported!

Reported? Did you just hand yourself to the moderators?

But yes, I hope that Sweden doesn't have those views on Autism. And I trust that the majority of them don't; no racism here. Though in ArbeitsSchu's defence, it doesn't look like you've strived to distance yourself from those bigoted, quack views of Autism. But I'm sure you don't need to distance yourself from those views; after what you said about your work 3 years ago, I fully expect that you don't agree with those views.

Pyriel- wrote:[ Do the classical thing and compare me to Hitler too.

Erm, did you just Godwin yourself?

Pyriel- wrote:

You were making assumptions long before I pointed out your poor choice of phrasing.

I wasnt the one going overboard using badly behaved god analogues but nice try.

Also, I am not talking about my "feelings" or "wishes".

So you speak with "wishes" as a basis while I speak with personal experience. Leaving it at that is there anything you would like to ask me about these things so that you may learn how things in real life work?
I grant you that, in a perfect society with limitless police budgets officers would indeed have the training and time and backup and extra staff needed to handle all kinds of odd cases (and no, dont compare "odd" to badly behaved dogs again) with a perfect approach towards every ones feelings, safety and what have you but this is not the case and by applying "wishful thinking" you cast a lot of unrealistic crap on the police.
I would like you to try out that line of work with the training required to do it and then see what you think.

Considering I spent a fair part of yesterday talking to the people who provide the FREE training then I think I can safely say that the FREE training is in fact FREE.

The training s free but the time it takes is not free. What is so hard to understand about this? Who pays for the officers replacements while they are away for a weeks "free" training? And dont come with some "oh it just takes two hours" because then it´s not anything considered real training. The shortest training I have been to that is required for work took 3 days (and yes the employer had to budget this since during my paid 3 days I did not actually do any real work) and it didnt teach anything new but just some repetitions.

If you...as a historian is it (?) ever hire people to do work for you and of they go taking "free" courses while you still pay their monthly salary who the hell is going to fill in their places as your employees? Oh you have to hire replacements but that´s ok, after all its free. Last tiem I checked the state does not provide compensation to cover the loss of income/work caused by training courses but who knows, that might differ from country to country.

Incidentally, unless I missed the post where you explained it, I haven't seen your "credentials" beyond that "handling" comment. I only hope that your tone here isn't reflective of whatever "training" you might have had. If it involves making disparaging comments about people's intelligence then I can't imagine you make autistic people feel very safe having you around.

Indeed you missed more then you realize.
With your insulting assumptions I cant imagine anyone taking your historian "wish" experiences as anything other then a joke when it comes to police work.

But ok, wanna know why you pissed me of so much with your god comment? 3 years ago I actually got a collegue fired over abusing a mentally handicapped person in prison custody where I could just have let it be.
Damn, why did I do that, I clearly hate autistics and other "madly behaved dogs".
Now you know and next time you say anything degrading about my work ethics I will have your insulting a** reported!

I just looked closer at the flag. Its Swedish is it not? Sweden, which has come up with such interesting ideas as "lack of sunlight causes Autism" and "Vinyl flooring/smoking mothers cause Autism.

Sweden is still subscribing to the otherwise discredited concept that the MMR jab causes Autism as well. OKydoky then.

So? And what the hell does that have to do with me in person you condescending prick!

Did you her me pick your avatar flag and trash your country just to try and earn some cheap point against you in person?
I had just about enough of you. Reported!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yes, some parents are against it; indeed, one of the points of the movement is to give adult Autistic people a say in charities and other establishments, rather than giving parents the monopoly. Not that the movement is against parents per se, indeed many parents support it. I say "movement", it's not like there's a club card or anything- the beautiful thing is that many people just take the values for granted rather than being actively involved in the cause.

So? That doesnt prove a thing. Some parents are for it and some parents actually wish their autistic kids would have been born with cancer, at least that would be way more "simple" for them.
Not my words though. Read that on a forum for parents to autistic kids.

Wonder what new assumptions that arbeits joke will make out of this now.

Badly behaved god analogues?

What part of "I am not talking about my personal; feelings or wishes" did you manage to translate into "I am talking about my personal feelings?" I merely said that my 'wishes' happen to coincide with recognised official good practice, and current officia efforts. Taking what I say and reversing it so you can argue with me is ridiculous.

So you now agree that the training is in fact available for free? You admitted that so graciously I almost missed it. You clearly have no idea how long this training takes, or what it involves, because you are wandering from days to weeks and back again. I might add that such awareness training could easily be factored into basic Police training at cadet level, before ever they hit the street, along side all the other things they have to train to do in order to do their job properly. Also, even if training did cost money, it would still be less expensive than losing court cases and paying out damages, and might even give the Met, (and the rest of the service) a positive image (something they sorely lack.)

If you are so concerned about handicapped people in your care, and such a "good samaritan", then maybe you should have answered my original query with something along the lines of "No, I don't think they are animals. Its just poor phrasing/translation." instead of taking the piss and just reinforcing the image of someone who thinks they are animals? Your choice of words did not support your apparent "work ethics". Nor does your position on this case. What it reminds me of is the attitudes of the staff at the 9now closed) Winterborne care home, who were filmed repeatedly abusing their disabled wards,whilst claiming that "sometimes you need to be 'firm' with these people, or they'll just take you for a ride".

Your flag is Swedish. I surmise from this you are in Sweden. I surmise from your grammar and word-choice that you are in fact Swedish. I can also surmise it from your beliefs about Autism and your "knowledge" of Policing and mental health. Sweden, which has a markedly different view on autism than those prevailing in the UK. Which is therefore relevant to your position on this case. As it is also relevant to your beliefs about what constitutes "proper training", amongst other things. Because Swedish Policing and "Mental Health" provision is not the same as it is here. Nor is the legal system, and so forth. Is anything I have surmised there incorrect?

For the record, two of my children were born autistic. Another of my children has cancer, but is not autistic. (He being the bald child in my avatar.) I know which is more 'simple', and it isn't having a baby with cancer. Two of my children are happy, healthy individuals with a great sense of humour, incredibly intelligent and great company. And autistic. The third is all those things except autistic and might not live to be five years old. I would much rather he be autistic than have cancer. Just to pop in a personal perspective on that debate.

Should I report you for being both rude and insulting, often in the same sentence? Any insult you draw from what I say is inferred wholly by yourself, including Godwin-ing yourself. But I'm not touchy enough to report someone for disagreeing with me.

So it's a good thing that the National Autistic Society advertises the cause.

Agree.

Reported? Did you just hand yourself to the moderators?

But yes, I hope that Sweden doesn't have those views on Autism. And I trust that the majority of them don't; no racism here. Though in ArbeitsSchu's defence, it doesn't look like you've strived to distance yourself from those bigoted, quack views of Autism. But I'm sure you don't need to distance yourself from those views; after what you said about your work 3 years ago, I fully expect that you don't agree with those views.

Obviously not but arbites has.

Taking crap shots about countries is not seen in a positive way by the mods, I once jokingly called UK boring and got my behind handled to by by the mods.
So imagine if arbeits trash talks my own country in a sarcastic way simply to invent some ridiculous point about myself.

1: I dont like to defend myself over things that are invented and assumed.
2: I did really not want to bring up the thing that happened at my work due to you know, the possibility that someone who knows me reads it and connects the dots and then the wrong people find out who that "a-hole" that got that guy fired over the abuse was and I maybe get my window smashed in or something.

Erm, did you just Godwin yourself?

Hehe, I rather see it as preventing being Godwinned by someone else

Should I report you for being both rude and insulting, often in the same sentence? Any insult you draw from what I say is inferred wholly by yourself, including Godwin-ing yourself. But I'm not touchy enough to report someone for disagreeing with me.

Yeah, let me list bad stuff your country does and then try to pin it together with your own character and we´ll talk but why am I saying this, it´s wasted on the likes of you.

For the record, two of my children were born autistic. Another of my children has cancer, but is not autistic. (He being the bald child in my avatar.) I know which is more 'simple', and it isn't having a baby with cancer.

So? Unless you missed it (deliberately I might add) I will repeat it again, just for you.
Those were not my words, those were words found on a forum about autistic kids by a parent to one. Have a problem with that go to the relevant forum and not to me.

As for my personal experience of autistic kids I dont know how to say it but I should charge people for dealing with troublesome kids. A friend of mine had a (back then) little kid that was totally hopeless and could never be calmed down...except when I came over. We always made bets that I could get the kid to willingly go to bed calm as a evening breeze and I always won.
Then again I have been fighting at work with an autistic gigant with a severe psychosis that was ultra violent, those I have no cozy feelings of understanding for by the way.
But that is not relevant to this thread.

Your flag is Swedish. I surmise from this you are in Sweden. I surmise from your grammar and word-choice that you are in fact Swedish.

Nice try there.
You didnt surmise anything. You made degrading comments about my country in a condescending and sarcastic way and then tried to link those to me by yet some more assumptions. Maybe that "special" tone gave you away, hmm. You sure as hell act the same way you accuse me of doing.
If that is your version of surmising then you really got me speachless here.

I can also surmise it from your beliefs about Autism and your "knowledge" of Policing and mental health.

Insted you could simply ask. There is a PM function you know.
Want me to follow you around and assume ridiculous crap about you? I can certainly find things that I can assume about you and then just assume those are correct because you choose not to dignify my crap with an answer. You are not so flawless after all it seems.

As it is also relevant to your beliefs about what constitutes "proper training"

1: Find out what proper training is when it comes to police/security MO. Come back and tell me what you find that is inhumane.
2: Dont compare my actual work experience to your historian wishful thinking thinking you are right. It´s as ridiculous as me not knowing jack about cars barging in to a car mechanic telling him I know best how to repair one.

If you are so concerned about handicapped people in your care, and such a "good samaritan", then maybe you should have answered my original query with something along the lines of "No, I don't think they are animals. Its just poor phrasing/translation

Maybe you should have asked me in a normal tone from the start?
Maybe you should not have used animals and badly behaved dogs in the first place then?
Maybe I didnt even want to dignify your idiotic assumptions in the first place and maybe I held you in as high a regard as I do a cockroach when you continued to pile up on your self invented assumptions?
Didnt think about that one did you while busy being 100% right.

How I am in real life has not necessarily everything to do in how I act online, especially when answering people who I am pissed at, I´m not a super good samaritan nor do I have 10 autistic kids that are all super happy like yours nor am I an inhumane psychopath like you try to paint me. Sort your own issues first, you seem to be the one who is intolerant here, having a fix idea and then sticking to it no matter what.

What it reminds me of is the attitudes of the staff at the 9now closed) Winterborne care home

I dont care what it reminds you about if you are not grown up enough to realize not everyone cant be put under the same blanket based on some memory.
You remind me of a bigot I once knew with an IQ of an eggplant, does that mean I automatically assume that you are? Does that mean I bring up condescending and dumb things your country has done and equal them with you?
If I said those things and if you wouldnt reply to them does that mean I now freely can "know" they are true and keep assuming more things?

Pyriel- wrote:

Taking crap shots about countries is not seen in a positive way by the mods, I once jokingly called UK boring and got my behind handled to by by the mods.
So imagine if arbeits trash talks my own country in a sarcastic way simply to invent some ridiculous point about myself.

Erm, did you just Godwin yourself?

Hehe, I rather see it as preventing being Godwinned by someone else

Should I report you for being both rude and insulting, often in the same sentence? Any insult you draw from what I say is inferred wholly by yourself, including Godwin-ing yourself. But I'm not touchy enough to report someone for disagreeing with me.

Yeah, let me list bad stuff your country does and then try to pin it together with your own character and we´ll talk but why am I saying this, it´s wasted on the likes of you.

For the record, two of my children were born autistic. Another of my children has cancer, but is not autistic. (He being the bald child in my avatar.) I know which is more 'simple', and it isn't having a baby with cancer.

So? Unless you missed it (deliberately I might add) I will repeat it again, just for you.
Those were not my words, those were words found on a forum about autistic kids by a parent to one. Have a problem with that go to the relevant forum and not to me.

Your flag is Swedish. I surmise from this you are in Sweden. I surmise from your grammar and word-choice that you are in fact Swedish.

Nice try there.
You didnt surmise anything. You made degrading comments about my country in a condescending and sarcastic way and then tried to link those to me by yet some more assumptions. Maybe that "special" tone gave you away, hmm. You sure as hell act the same way you accuse me of doing.
If that is your version of surmising then you really got me speachless here.

I can also surmise it from your beliefs about Autism and your "knowledge" of Policing and mental health.

Insted you could simply ask. There is a PM function you know.
Want me to follow you around and assume ridiculous crap about you? I can certainly find things that I can assume about you and then just assume those are correct because you choose not to dignify my crap with an answer. You are not so flawless after all it seems.

As it is also relevant to your beliefs about what constitutes "proper training"

1: Find out what proper training is when it comes to police/security MO. Come back and tell me what you find that is inhumane.
2: Dont compare my actual work experience to your historian wishful thinking thinking you are right. It´s as ridiculous as me not knowing jack about cars barging in to a car mechanic telling him I know best how to repair one.

If you are so concerned about handicapped people in your care, and such a "good samaritan", then maybe you should have answered my original query with something along the lines of "No, I don't think they are animals. Its just poor phrasing/translation

Maybe you should have asked me in a normal tone from the start?
Maybe you should not have used animals and badly behaved dogs in the first place then?
Maybe I didnt even want to dignify your idiotic assumptions in the first place and maybe I held you in as high a regard as I do a cockroach when you continued to pile up on your self invented assumptions?
Didnt think about that one did you while busy being 100% right.

How I am in real life has not necessarily everything to do in how I act online, especially when answering people who I am pissed at, I´m not a super good samaritan nor do I have 10 autistic kids that are all super happy like yours nor am I an inhumane psychopath like you try to paint me. Sort your own issues first, you seem to be the one who is intolerant here, having a fix idea and then sticking to it no matter what.

What it reminds me of is the attitudes of the staff at the 9now closed) Winterborne care home

I dont care what it reminds you about if you are not grown up enough to realize not everyone cant be put under the same blanket based on some memory.
You remind me of a bigot I once knew with an IQ of an eggplant, does that mean I automatically assume that you are? Does that mean I bring up condescending and dumb things your country has done and equal them with you?
If I said those things and if you wouldnt reply to them does that mean I now freely can "know" they are true and keep assuming more things?

So the official attitudes of your nations health professionals towards Autism have absolutely NO bearing at all on any training about Autism that takes place in your country? Because that seems exceedingly odd on several levels. Who then is providing this training, and by what standard is it organised, if not by the standards of your own health profession? Is it based wholly on the medical opinions of other nations that are not Sweden? No, of course not. That would be ridiculous. So the country in which you have been "trained" is in fact incredibly relevant to the standard of that training. To give you an example of this: Nation X does not recognise Autism as existing at all. A poster from Nation X waxes lyrical about how much knowledge he has about Autistic Spectrum Conditions based on his employment and training in Nation X. This is why your country of origin is relevant. Its not "racist' or "country-bashing' to point out that Sweden is not particularly forward-thinking about Autism when discussing Autism with a Swede who claims experience. I am calling into question how useful your 'experience' is in judging the way to 'handle' autistic people, based on where you have been taught to 'handle' them.

I'm quite aware of where you picked your comment about Autism vs Cancer. You didn't say it, but you chose to repeat it, to use that comment to reinforce your point about "curing" autism, I merely enlightened you as to the fact that the comment you chose is complete rubbish, based on my extensive experience of BOTH conditions/situations. The two are not comparable, and anyone who tries to make them so is misguided or just plain stupid. Its the kind of foolish throwaway comment that someone who has not experienced child-hood cancer would make, because they lack the understanding or common sense needed to avoid making such an offensive remark.

I'm thinking that its possible you don't actually understand what "surmise" means in this context, or at least your response suggests that you don't. Or perhaps it doesn't translate well in Swedish, or something. Its exactly what I did, its the right word. The fact that you just decided to interpret that as some kind of weird racist attack or something, just like you assumed that I was going to say you were as bad as Hitler, when i have done nothing of the sort, does not change the fact that I 'surmised' various things based on your apparent nationality. If you aren't Swedish, from Sweden, living in Sweden, and were not trained in Sweden by Swedes then feel free to tell me.

And for the umpteenth time.. This is not my 'wishful thinking'. What I have explained about training is part of ongoing policy by the NHS, the Department of Health, Local Authorities, Charities, Private companies, the Police and National Autistic Society, much of it based on the Autism Act. It is merely happy coincidence that what I desire to be the case is what the all of these groups and departments also desire to be the case. I really can't make this any clearer to you, short of contacting a Swedish friend and getting him to translate what I have written into Swedish. Its like a man taking his car in for repairs, saying "I think its the alternator". and the mechanic replying "Yes. It IS the alternator. We are in happy agreement." to use your own metaphor. (Hopefully by using your own metaphor you will better understand what I have already said to you more than once.)

Its TWO kids. Not 10. And I did ask you in a "normal" tone. I even opened the query with a 'get-out' clause, suggesting that it might simply be an accident of your word choice. Please observe how I have extended the same benefit of the doubt when discussing your apparent misunderstanding of the word 'surmise'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: Your occupation is recorded as "Death from Above". Should I be using that to make comments about your 'experience' with Autism? No, that would be silly. So why are you so focused on part of mine, which has been there since god knows when, and is a response to a conversation I had with a friend and fellow Dakkite about the title of "Historian"? Another poster is an "Aspiring Galactic Overlord." Would we use that as the basis of an argument about the validity of his position? I re-iterate: for someone who complains about 'assumptions',, you make some pretty silly ones yourself.