UN rights council delves into US voter I.D. laws

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**Andrew1975**

hotsauceman1 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
hotsauceman1 wrote:Also poor whites are more likely to live in nicer neighbor hoods then poorer minorities. ones close to a DMV.

Gotta ask for a source here.

Compton, CA,. if Dr. Dre is to be believed, is a pretty rough area. There is a DMV.

TBH its from one of my sociology lectures awhile back.

Its false, there is a License bureau on 55th and I believe Kinsmen in Cleveland. You don't get much more Ghetto than that. You don't need to go to the DMV to get a ID. License bureaus work just fine. In fact most Ghetto type areas have lots of these government facilities because property is cheap, the majority possibly. Many times when I had to go to government facilities for different reasons I was not happy about where I had to go.

People in the back country would have a much harder time as there is little to no public transportation and the nearest facility could be tens if not hundreds of miles away.

I think most poor white people live in basically the same conditions as poor black people, they may trade ghetto apartments for run down trailer parks, but they are usually in a relatively built up area with government facilities, its easier to get your government aid that way.

**Kilkrazy**

Amaya wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:
Amaya wrote:Can someone explain how a law requiring some form of Federal ID to vote is racist or biased against any given group?

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/03/12/3804285/hasen-texas-voter-id-law-may-be.html

It doesn't prove anything. Is there evidence that many Hispanics do not have IDs? If so, why do they not have IDs and why is it so difficult to go and get one?

You didn't ask for proof. You asked for an explanation.

The point is that, yes, various groups including blacks, Hispanics and elders, do not have photo IDs though they have other forms of ID which are valid under current law such as social security number.

It's difficult to get a Photo ID because, for example, the main form available is a driving licence or a passport. Citizenship does not require people to have licences or passports, so why should people be forced to buy them?

The counter to this is to provide free Photo ID carding, which means it would be done by the government at taxpayer expense.

**Frazzled**

Scrabb wrote:It makes me angry that voting fraud happens. But odds are more legitimate american citizen votes will be eliminated than fraudulent ones due to voter ID legislation. So it's not a good idea.

Again, what source do you have for that? If people can can get food they can get an ID.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
The counter to this is to provide free Photo ID carding, which means it would be done by the government at taxpayer expense.

IT IS FREE NOW. Thats the point.
The people who have legitimate arguments about not being able to get IDs are invalids and illegal immigrants. If you are invalid you're not going to be voting (or I am sure you can ring up the local political party as they bus homes and hooligans now), or you don't have the legal right to vote in the first place.

**Ouze**

In other news, conservatives and alleged libertatians are lobbying strongly for expanding and strengthening government bureaucracy (like the DMV) to give away "free" ID's (at taxpayer expense) to address a non-existent problem.

**KingCracker**

Can we just nuke the politicians now?

**Frazzled**

Elect me President and all these problems go away.

**Bromsy**

Dibs on Minister of Strip Clubs in the Frazzled administration. Someone has to keep their eye on all those wily strippers.

**Andrew1975**

Bromsy wrote:Dibs on Minister of Strip Clubs in the Frazzled administration. Someone has to keep their eye on all those wily strippers.

Cant get in the strip club without an ID. I wonder which form of validation costs the taxpayers more, training people to interrogate people for info and making sure it matches or getting someone to just check IDs?

**Monster Rain**

Andrew1975 wrote:Cant get in the strip club without an ID.

Which is, of course, racist.

**Melissia**

Mannahnin wrote:It is dumb, unless there is some real evidence of significant amounts of voter fraud. So far I haven't seen anything convincing.

I haven't either, besides, government issued ID can be faked.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
IT IS FREE NOW. Thats the point.
The people who have legitimate arguments about not being able to get IDs are invalids and illegal immigrants. If you are invalid you're not going to be voting (or I am sure you can ring up the local political party as they bus homes and hooligans now), or you don't have the legal right to vote in the first place.

It depends on what is considered a valid photo ID.

Several states will accept US passports, but not out of state IDs.

In state and Congressional elections this isn't necessarily an issue, but regarding the Presidency it is.

**Kilkrazy**

The key point is that if you have a problem with immigration you need to solve it by solving the immigration problem, not by inventing unnecessary measures likely to disenfranchise thousands of voters.

**Jakka**

Kilkrazy wrote:The key point is that if you have a problem with immigration you need to solve it by solving the immigration problem, not by inventing unnecessary measures likely to disenfranchise thousands of voters.

This is quite honestly the only convincing argument I've read from this side of the discussion.

**Melissia**

How about the argument that governmetn ID can be faked too, so it's not really that much of a deterrent of fraud?

Hell my classmates in high school got fake IDs pretty easily, believable ones too.

**Monster Rain**

Melissia wrote:How about the argument that governmetn ID can be faked too, so it's not really that much of a deterrent of fraud?

I don't think that qualifies as a convincing argument, personally.

Infallibility is a rather high standard to hold any law to.

**Melissia**

True, but we're talking about a law that's supposed to prevent voting fraud, but since the law itself is quite easy to defraud, I'd say that it's not really going to help is it?

**Monster Rain**

Well, I'm just saying that the fact that a law can be circumvented being used as an argument against its implementation is a flawed line of reasoning. It's possible that murder can be gotten away with. Should we not bother having laws against it?

I'm pretty sauced right now though. So I hope that made sense.

**Melissia**

No, but this isn't the same type of law as a law saying murder is illegal. It's a proscriptive law instead of a preventative one.

Dunno if I'm expressing that right.

**Monster Rain**

Nah, I get what you're saying.

Still, I think the basic principle remains the same: the fact that a law can be circumvented by those who want to go to the trouble isn't a good reason to not make the law.

**Bromsy**

Can we get back to the part where I am minister of Strip Clubs? It's Saint Patties fer Odin's sake.

**Mannahnin**

Monster Rain wrote:Still, I think the basic principle remains the same: the fact that a law can be circumvented by those who want to go to the trouble isn't a good reason to not make the law.

Is it if the ability to circumvent it is sufficiently easy as to make the law unable to achieve its aim. If the costs of a law outweigh the benefits, it shouldn't be enacted. Again, we're talking about a law being made to solve a nonexistant problem, will have undesirable side effects of voter suppression, and which will cost states millions of dollars to implement.

In addition, some courts may require states to ensure that all the documents required in order to obtain photo IDs are free and easily available to prospective voters. While these measures will not guarantee that a state’s voter ID law will be upheld in court (there are a number of constitutionalproblems with voter ID requirements, as discussed below), failure to include these measures willmake it likely that courts will find the law deficient. All of these measures entail appreciable costs that states must be prepared to incur if they moveforward with photo ID requirements. In addition, states adopting photo ID laws must incur all theadministrative costs of changing election procedures, including the costs of materials and training forelection officials and poll workers across the state. A fiscal note prepared in conjunction with aproposed photo ID law in Missouri estimated a cost of $6 million for the first year in which the law was to be in effect, followed by recurring costs of approximately $4 million per year.

When Indiana estimated the costs of its photo ID law, it found that, to provide more than 168,000 IDs to voters,the “[t]otal production costs, including man-power, transaction time and manufacturing” was in excess of $1.3 million, with an additional revenue loss of nearly $2.2 million. That estimateapparently did not include a variety of necessary costs, including the costs of training and votereducation and outreach. A fiscal note assessing an ID bill in Minnesota estimated at least $250,000 for the manufacturing costs of providing free ID at only 90 locations across the state, the costs of onetraining conference for county auditors, and some administrative costs.

http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/the_cost_of_voter_id_laws_what_the_courts_say/

Frazzled wrote:IT IS FREE NOW. Thats the point.

No it's not. If it's free in Texas, how much is that costing the taxpayers down there? Have you looked it up?

**Kilkrazy**

He means free to users at the point of access, like the British NHS.

**Mannahnin**

I'm pretty sure that he's repeatedly claimed that state photo IDs are free. Which they certainly aren't in my state, among others.

**Monster Rain**

Mannahnin wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:Still, I think the basic principle remains the same: the fact that a law can be circumvented by those who want to go to the trouble isn't a good reason to not make the law.

Is it if the ability to circumvent it is sufficiently easy as to make the law unable to achieve its aim. If the costs of a law outweigh the benefits, it shouldn't be enacted. Again, we're talking about a law being made to solve a nonexistant problem, will have undesirable side effects of voter suppression, and which will cost states millions of dollars to implement.

If I might clarify my position:

If voter fraud were shown to be a problem that required addressing via some sort of law requiring IDs for voters, I'd be for it. Until then, this is simply some sort of thought exercise for me.

Also, it WAS March 17th until recently, So, um... take that into account when reading this post. I told everyone how racist the "Irish Car Bomb" is, but damned if I didn't drink 'em.

**Kilkrazy**

Hum.

I'm not going to take offence at a cocktail called an Irish Carb Bomb, however I would not advise you to order one at a pub in Omagh, Northern Ireland.

29 dead and over 200 injured isn't really a clever concept for a new cocktail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

**Monster Rain**

Kilkrazy wrote:Hum.

I'm not going to take offence at a cocktail called an Irish Carb Bomb, however I would not advise you to order one at a pub in Omagh, Northern Ireland.

29 dead and over 200 injured isn't really a clever concept for a new cocktail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing

Oh, believe me, I know exactly what you're talking about.

It's quite common in the States, though. I explain that it's like ordering a 9/11, but people don't get it I guess.

**Mannahnin**

Yeah, the Irish Car Bomb drink is definitely part of the legacy of black humor about it /sympathy towards it in the US. It's quite an old drink though. You haven't heard of it before?

MR: Fairy snuff!

**Frazzled**

Bromsy wrote:Can we get back to the part where I am minister of Strip Clubs? It's Saint Patties fer Odin's sake.

Bromsy is hereby appointed minister of Strip Clubs in an enlightened Frazzled administration.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:I'm pretty sure that he's repeatedly claimed that state photo IDs are free. Which they certainly aren't in my state, among others.

Move to a better state? We have a rodeo that last an entire month.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Yeah, the Irish Car Bomb drink is definitely part of the legacy of black humor about it /sympathy towards it in the US. It's quite an old drink though. You haven't heard of it before?

MR: Fairy snuff!

I prefer my version. Go to a wine tasting class with a wife who "makes" me finish off all her glasses, drink more wine at an Italian restaurant, and then finish off some cheap Ravenwood cabernet while watching two episodes of th

e 3rd season of Tru Blood.

**Mannahnin**

You party animal, you!

**AustonT**

The question that's been nagging at me is: Does that mean 25% of blacks don't drive?