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Staples

Who needs health insurance when we have Dakka.

just give no names or addresses...or another american fav past time will ensue...

helgrenze wrote:
Because it was to the bone and on my right hand..... and would not stop bleeding. they tried dermabond first too.

Ah, yeah, deep cuts pretty well require sutures. Though I have heard of Dermabond (the stuff hospitals use, not the commercial product) being used for C-sections.

dogma wrote:

helgrenze wrote:
Because it was to the bone and on my right hand..... and would not stop bleeding. they tried dermabond first too.

Ah, yeah, deep cuts pretty well require sutures. Though I have heard of Dermabond (the stuff hospitals use, not the commercial product) being used for C-sections.

A lot of times they will use sutures that disolve in the deeper layers, and then use Dermabond at the very end.

My Father was a paramedic, mom's a nurse... IF I need to go to the hospital it's usually pretty serious.

Ailaros wrote:Socialized medicine, like everything else in socialism, has had a pretty decent run over the past few decades, but now it's all falling apart because it's a worse system.

These are just wild, largely nonsensical claims. You just can't shout socialism and then pretend it means whatever system you don't like, and that it has a key part in whatever system happens to be doing poorly right now. The same applies for ideologues who shout Capitalism! or anything else really - it's just a fundamentally lazy way of looking at the world. The world is just so much more complicated than shouting some slogan regardless of the situation. Economic systems are so complicated, and differ so greatly from one to next, that you just cannot shout about some system or another being doomed to failure without a study of the actual system in question.

I didn't say it was the biggest tax hike in history, I said it was the most regressive.

Read more closely, I never said you claimed it was the biggest. I just said it was silly to claim that a single impost like the mandate is the most regressive tax in history, when there are sales taxes - of which the regressive nature is well documented.

Rich and poor alike have to pay sales taxes (while poor people get a break with things like much lower rates on food, and heavily subsidized fuel).

I think you need to read about the regressive impacts of sales taxes. Summarised version - the income of poor people goes almost entirely into consumption, and so is all impacted by sales tax, while as you look at middle class and higher incomes, less and less goes into consumption spending, so a smaller and smaller part of their income is impacted by sales tax.

It's a tax that the rich are already avoiding, and that the middle class, if they're not already avoiding it, will be relatively easy to avoid. A tax that is only practically leveled on poor people and not the rich is regressive. End of.

That cannot be the end of the conversation, unless you're a very strong advocate for very, very pointless conversations. You cannot look at the negative impact of a tax in isolation, ignore all benefits, declare it regressive and therefore bad. That's the strategy of idiot, loud mouthed pundits. Actual conversation requires you to consider what the poor would get from the tax- and in this case they get the ability to go and get insured when they get sick.

[quoteSecondly, this tax is to recoup the loss of emergency room visits by the uninsured. It does NOT insure the uninsured.

Seb it wont work, he wont cite sources and when presented with actual sources that appose his view point he just doesn't respond.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:I think the one thing we can ALL agree on is that the US health system as it stands now is completely broken. Just look up the average cost of getting 4 stitches put in by a med student.

I think we can also all agree that the insurance companies need to be reined in and told who's boss.

Just my thoughts.

_Tim?

Stitches are nothing. Whats the survival rate for breast cancer between the US, UK, Canada, and Germany. (hint US is higher than UK and Canada as we detect it more quickly. Don't know about Germany). Thats why we need the best of all worlds here and have the opportunity to do that.


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Mannahnin wrote:On Bill Maher tonight Fareed Zakaria said something interesting. That Taiwan, in the 90s, decided that they had enough money to put together a universal healthcare system, and basically did what Frazzled has repeatedly suggested. They looked at all the healthcare systems extant around the world, and looked for the best features and model. The concluded that a single-payer system like Canada's is actually the best, resulting in the best combination of best outcomes and cost control.

Exactly. Lets do that. Look at the countries with the best care, including cancer treatment, and move forward.

youbedead wrote:Seb it wont work, he wont cite sources and when presented with actual sources that appose his view point he just doesn't respond.

You never know


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Frazzled wrote:Exactly. Lets do that. Look at the countries with the best care, including cancer treatment, and move forward.

Yeah, this is something not just the US, but every country should be doing all the time, and not just in healthcare. There's limits to it, of course, Singaporean justice might look amazing when you look at their crime rates, but there's cultural reasons there that just can't translate. Or it'd be great to build a venture capital system that's half as effective as the US, but economies of scale and cultural difference drive much of its success, so maybe can't be replicated. But generally yeah, look at who does it best in the world and chase that.

Baby steps.

The US first needs to move into the "Not stupid." phase of political debate.

dogma wrote:Baby steps.

The US first needs to move into the "Not stupid." phase of political debate.

We're never going back you know. There's too much money in stupidity and the people are too stupid to know how to demand they not be lied to.

Frazzled wrote:

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:I think the one thing we can ALL agree on is that the US health system as it stands now is completely broken. Just look up the average cost of getting 4 stitches put in by a med student.

I think we can also all agree that the insurance companies need to be reined in and told who's boss.

Just my thoughts.

_Tim?

Stitches are nothing. Whats the survival rate for breast cancer between the US, UK, Canada, and Germany. (hint US is higher than UK and Canada as we detect it more quickly. Don't know about Germany). Thats why we need the best of all worlds here and have the opportunity to do that.

The report I posted earlier has some good information, and yeah the US is miles ahead in terms of advanced cancer treatment, however that is only for the middle class, as you go lower in income the likelihood of early detection and successful treatment drops dramatically in the US.

dogma wrote:Baby steps.

The US first needs to move into the "Not stupid." phase of political debate.

Very true.


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ShumaGorath wrote:We're never going back you know. There's too much money in stupidity and the people are too stupid to know how to demand they not be lied to.

Consequences might change things. When the adults in the room realise that playing up to the crazies has resulted in those crazies getting elected and taking real power within their party, there's a very good chance the adults will move away from relying on the crazy votes.

This has happened in the Republican party, though we're yet to see if Boehner and company, humiliated by the crazy end of the party actually wanting to hit the debt ceiling, can reign things in.

This has happened in the Republican party, though we're yet to see if Boehner and company, humiliated by the crazy end of the party actually wanting to hit the debt ceiling, can reign things in.

The fringe isn't the issue. The core of the conservative movement doesn't deal with reality anymore. There are truly few moderate republicans left in office and even fewer in the media. The problem with that is that truth is relative, when enough people in power espouse or believe something it becomes real enough that the truth stops meaning anything. We're there. We've been there for years, gak that doesn't make any sense and falls flat on it's face under even a childs scrutiny is now true for half this countries population.

Teachers are overpayed because of their unions and don't work hard?

A law set that forces people to buy a private product is a socialist law?

Global warming is a leftist conspiracy?

Iran is a dire threat to our national security?

The way to fix our economy is to deregulate it?


These ideas aren't just untrue, they're stupid and harmful. In some cases they don't even make the barest bit of sense. Every single one of these ideas makes someone a lot of money. No, I don't think people are going to come to their senses sebster. That would imply that rationality is a natural state for humans, or even one that they desire. It's just going to keep getting worse. Democracy is going to die because the kingmakers will break it to save their investments. It had a good run.

Humans are plenty rational.

But pleasant fictions are pleasant.

ShumaGorath wrote:The fringe isn't the issue. The core of the conservative movement doesn't deal with reality anymore.

I was talking about the crazies moving from the fringe and into the mainstream of the party, just like you were.

Our actual point of difference is that you assume now that crazy ideas are a part of mainstream Republican politics that they will continue to be so. I don't believe that is necessarily the case, because people learn from the consequences of their actions. People are free to believe the stupidest things imaginable until that stupidity starts to really hit them in the face.

It's interesting to see this with minor, very stupid political parties around the world, who suddenly find themselves granted some level of political power. Suddenly faced with actual consequences for their political beliefs, most quickly backtrack on their stupidity and inevitably lose their high minded, fail to understand the consequences of their nice sounding political ideology.

The Republicans are a bit different, in that they're not a minor party without any history of actual power, so we can't just assume the above will happen to them. But we shouldn't assume it can't happen, either.


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dogma wrote:Humans are plenty rational.

But pleasant fictions are pleasant.

It's perfectly rational to believe something stupid when it's flattering and has no consequences for your own life. It's only when there's consequences for believing something stupid that you start to see change.