Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Neorealist wrote:

nosferatu wrote:You are told to roll to wound against THE TARGET. This is synonymous with THE UNIT

No kidding. You are missing the fact that 'The Unit' is synonymous with "...In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units..." as well.

Therefore 'The Target' = 'A Unit' = 'A Group of Models'. Each of these can be used interchangably when referring to any of the other terms.

once again:
"...A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template..."
...Any models fully or partially under the template are hit...
...To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the
target's 'Leadership' characteristic using the To Wound chart...


What part hidden in the above 3 rules indicates you are violating some specific rule regarding targetting by following them in sequence like i've claimed?

The fact that TARGET refers to the entire unit. We've mentioned this a few times.

You keep on ignoring this, and seem to think that rolling to wound against SOME oft he unit is rolling to wound against the whole unit

Try again, Hell, I've been nice and made the bit you keep on ignoring realy, really obvious for you.

I'm still a bit confused about this whole topic (or maybe, rather, why it is causing such a debate). The only time we are told to use the highest leadership is for leadership tests, which rolling to wound is not.

Since we are not given explicit instructions, majority leadership is the only option that makes sense when directions are told to "roll against leadership instead of toughness," or similar.

One side is arguing that template weapons that wound on leadership use only the models hit instead of the unit.
The other side acknowledges RAW the target has no leadership, but based on the ID ruling replace all instances of Toughness with Leadership, as this breaks the fewest rules.

This - or to be more precise, one side thinks that despite being told to wound the Target, which is the whole unit, you can fulfil this requirement by only rolling to wound agfainst part of the unit, creating an entirely new method not used anywhere else in the game, that only "works" for templates, and no other weapon-type in the game, and that ignores direction from GW in terms of how you replace "T" with "Ld" in the text as needed.

Doesnt stop them being convinced that they have broken no rules, despite being shown precisely how many rules have been broken.

All righty then. As it seems that there is no solution to this as yet, I'll throw in some Rule book quotes and see is I can help iron this out.

"Multiple Toughness Values" (BRB, Page 14, Mid Right) "Quite rarely, a unit will contain models with differing Toughness characteristics. When this occurs, roll To Wound Using the Toughness characteristic that is in the majority in the target unit. If two or more Toughness Values are tied for the majority, use the highest of the tied values."

"Characters as Leaders" (BRB, Page 63, Mid Left) "Remember that a units Leadership tests are taken using the highest leadership value in the unit (See Page 7)."

"Leadership tests" (BRB, Page 7, Lower Left) "If a Unit includes models with different Leadership values always use the highest Leadership from among them.)."

'Neural Shredder" (GK's. Codex, Page 53, Top Left) "* Hits from a Neural shredder are resolved against the targets Leadership, rather then its Toughness."

So with all this information given here is what I have to say.

A unit must always use its highest Leadership when making a Leadership test. However, the Neural shredder does not make the unit take a Leadership test. So the effected unit can not use the leadership of the Character or IC in determining what the unit Leadership is when compared to the Neural Shredder's Strength.

Here is an example of Str vs Mixed Toughness. A Necron Lord is in a unit of 10 Necron warriors and they come under attack from a Heavy flamer, wounds are rolled against the majority toughness and not the toughness of the Lord.

here is an example of the Neural Shredder against a unit of GK's Strike Squad with a Brother Captain, the leadership of the unit is mixed of 9 guys at LDR (8) one Justicar at LDR (9) and the BC at LRD (10), it can either be rolled against each model effected with different dice for each leadership Value, or can be rolled against the majority Leadership.

As I read it the Neural Shredder/Abyssal staff does not make the Target unit/Model take a Leadership test, it only compares the leadership value on a unit/model rather then its Toughness

Just my two cents.

Except it's not a leadership test. It's a wound comparing a weapon's strength against a unit's leadership.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Except it's not a leadership test. It's a wound comparing a weapon's strength against a unit's leadership.

Was this toward my post or another?

As I may not have been clear, but The Neural Shredder/Abyssal Staff do not cause a Leadership Test, they just compare the leadership to the Strength of the attack. Meaning that the Higher leadership value of the character is not used as it is not a Leadership test.

you use the average leader ship for rolling to wound,

just as you use the average Toughness for rolling to wound


leaders Ld can ONLY be used to moral checks, not characteristic tests, not rolling to wound

nosferatu1001 wrote:
using Majority Leadership in place of Majority Toughness is the most sensible option, as it requires making up the fewest rules.

Both the methods of wounding in this thread (majority Ld vs. individual model's Ld) are silly. The unit's Ld (the highest Ld stat in the unit) is what the Neural Shredder wounds against.

The Neural Shredder's wording is helpful in this situation.

GK p "Hits from a Neural Shredder are resolved against the target's Leadership, rather than its Toughness."

We must consider the target's Ld. A unit's Ld is the highest Ld stat of a model in the unit. If a Lord is with some Marines, then the target's Ld is 10, thanks to the Lord.


EDIT: and this would be correct, if it didn't say that "Ld tests" (BRB 63) are done with the highest Ld. Curses. Majority Leadership it is.

exactly, since you roll to "wound" with the shredder, not for the unit to take a LD test, you use the majority LD in place of majority T

the unit does not have the leader LD, it simply gets to use it for LD tests, not for to wound rolls