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2013/09/19 19:30:28
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/19 19:58:43
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
I would like to point out that the longshoremen left the AFL-CIO primarily over jurisdiction disagreements, their frustration with automation at ports and its effect on their collective bargaining, and because they accused the AFL-CIO for violating their picket lines.
Some of their dissatisfaction over the PPACA is because of a lack of clarification in the bill in regards to Taft-Hartley (multi-employer) benefit plans. Their leadership is in favor of a single-payer health care program, something that would never be backed by Republicans (and probably most Democrats) in Congress. The way the PPACA is written, it treats Taft-Hartley plans (which are nonprofit health care plans administered by unions and paid for by companies) differently than a "normal" employer-run health care plan.
They are also upset at immigration reform, not because Obama is pushing for it, but because the current plan is not progressive enough. Their leadership feels that the current plan will make it too difficult for middle-class immigrants to achieve citizenship, because in their eyes the current plan is “designed to give [only] highly-paid workers a real path to citizenship.”
I'd like to remind everyone that the longshoremen have only been in the AFL-CIO for 25 years. They join in 1988 after they were kicked out the CIO (Congress of Industrial Organizations) in 1950 for being "dominated by communists." Now that Fox News story mentions it, but a lot of right-leaning new sources outright omit that information (or at the very least, severely downplay it) because, on the surface, they see it they see it as a victory over Obama and a reaffirmation of their own politics.
My dad was a longshorman, ILA Union Local 1804-1 for 40 years.
Youre timeline is off by a few years.
The ILA (International Longshormans Association) has been attached to the AFL since 1896, and off and on with the AFL-CIO since 1960. And the split with the AFL wasnt because of communists, it was because of Mafia involvement with some members. When it was "cleaned up", they got back with the AFL-CIO in 1960.
motyak wrote: Ah, so when you are ill you apply to the panel to be granted health insurance, and they judge, based on your level of productivity to society, how much cover you should be granted.
That's what Palin claimed, yeah. None of it is true, though, there was no scope for determining treatment based on a person's 'worth'. She was straight up making up bs to play to the crazies, who bought in to it, as they always do.
Now, that said, there really are boards and people that make decisions on what treatments are to be undertaken and what simply can't be afforded given finite medical resources. State boards do this all the time, cutting one Medicare treatment in order to fund another. And here in Australia we do the exact same thing.
But what none of these board do is make the decision patient by patient, dependant on that person's 'worth'. It's all about what treatments and medications can be afforded as a whole, with their cost compared to how many more years the average recipient will live.
You should visit the US sometime Sebster. Then maybe you might get a clue as to WTF youre talking about.
And the moment you answer it, it will be retained and can be perused by the government at its leisure.
There is no reason you have to answer the question, just as there is no reason you have to answer any question that your doctor asks.
We had 5 people go ranting and raving at my job because a coworker went to a new doctor with his pregnant wife and the doctor had the nerve to ask him "do you have any guns in your home". To hear him tell the story he basically went into full-blown "thanks Obama!" mode and started to cuss out the doctor because it's none of his goddamn business to ask him anything like that and the doctor doesn't need to know about anything that goes on at his home. He immediately fired this doctor and got a new one, (probably a Republican one, I don't know).
Which part of the bolded section are you having a problem comprehending? Betcha like going through TSA screenings too...Sheesh!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/19 20:06:26
2013/09/20 04:34:25
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Frazzled wrote: Because you've not been paying attention to what has been going on in the last year? We have the President of Brazil canceling meetings with the Whitehouse over the NSA, NSA admitting its members have been rutinely doing checks on friends, relatives and anyone they damn well pleased, hacker attacks daily, and the government itself saying the computer security of the ACA is utter crap and behind schedule.
Yeah, those things are serious issues. Worrying that your doctor will be required to ask about your sexual history, and that your answer will become part of some large government database that tracks whether you, Frazzled, have had sufficient amounts of government mandated sex is not a serious issue.
If this makes you laugh, maybe you should step away from the computer a little more, or attend to more local events then issues concerning a country thousands of miles away.
Nah, our politics is hilarious, I mean we just ended up electing a political group to our senate who's entire platform is that they like sport, and did so pretty much by mistake through a system that's suddenly looking like it doesn't really work anymore... but it still isn't as funny as people worrying that their doctor will ask about their sexual history. I'm always going to go for the funnier stuff, and your privacy panic here is is gold.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spacemanvic wrote: You should visit the US sometime Sebster. Then maybe you might get a clue as to WTF youre talking about.
I have, it's a wonderful country.
And if you're so deep down the rabbit hole that you honestly believe that having your doctor ask about your sexual history, well then I don't know what to say. I mean, feth it, I can't reason you out of a position you didn't use reason to assume in the first place.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/20 04:41:01
2013/09/20 06:04:21
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Ouze wrote: And this is why politicians lie, ladies and gentleman. It works.
In this case, to be fair, it's less of believing the original crazypants lie, and more redefining the crazypants lie in to something very different, still crazypants but sufficiently different that they don't have to defend the old, easily proven nonsense.
Which I think is a fairly good example of how the truly crazy have reacted to the information intense nature of the internet age. You used to be able to put out some serious crazy in some kind of dead tree media, and because much media was only read by a small audience, and the response cycle was limited to the frequency of publication (often weekly or monthly) you could maintain some very crazy nonsense for years, even decades. I mean, just look at the first half of Ron Paul's career.
But these days on-line publications are read by political opponents as well as the faithful, and those people can respond instantly, and with a mountain of facts available at their fingertips. So discrediting crazypants nonsense pretty much plays out in real time.
That'd be a problem for people who tell crazy lies for political advantage, except they realised that it's really easy for them to just make leave the old lie alone, and move on to some new, crazy nonsense. Just shout death panels, and while people are posting exhaustive cases explaining why that's insane, just move on to something new. And then later on you or some other crazy person will just refine the old lie in to something different, which in turn you can just leave alone while people explain in detail why its crazy, you move on to something else, and just wait to return later with another variation on that same piece of crazy.
It's political lie whack-a-mole.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/20 11:23:19
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
And this is why politicians lie, ladies and gentleman. It works.
They've been having these "panels" in Medicare for some time.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/20 13:37:53
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Dogma is not concerned about privacy. Thats fine. Others are.
It isn't that I'm not concerned about privacy, its just that I don't really care if people have access to my medical history. And, honestly, I don't understand why its an especially big deal. I mean, right now, there are 9 different insurance companies that have copies of my medical history on file*, 11 different doctors/clinics, and 3 hospitals; obviously all current to different dates.
The notion that my medical history is private flew out the window a long time ago.
*Not including independent dental insurance plans.
Others are not so inclined.
Especially with stigma over mental health and abortions, people not wanting others to know if they were abused as children, etc. I can see why others may not want their medical history to be public viewing
2013/09/20 15:24:52
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Almost twice as many people who have noticed changes in the health-care system after ObamaCare’s passage see more negative than positive.
Also interestingly...support level among women is much lower than among men, 38% and 46% respectively. o.O A little forecasting of a Democrat drubbing?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/21 04:10:33
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Dogma is not concerned about privacy. Thats fine. Others are.
It isn't that I'm not concerned about privacy, its just that I don't really care if people have access to my medical history. And, honestly, I don't understand why its an especially big deal. I mean, right now, there are 9 different insurance companies that have copies of my medical history on file*, 11 different doctors/clinics, and 3 hospitals; obviously all current to different dates.
The notion that my medical history is private flew out the window a long time ago.
*Not including independent dental insurance plans.
There are many things that can be done if you know a person's medical history.
An Employer could discriminate against you for a condition(STD, past injury, etc...) if they found out.
Heck, someone could find out you are deathly allergic to something and use that information against you.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
A good way to tell that an article you are reading is full of it is if
A.) Part of the quoted text does not actually appear in the source story. The story you posted copied half of the quote from the source it cites, but the other half appears nowhere in the source. It is, in fact, cobbled together from a completely different article, but deceptively presented as if it was a solid quote.
and
B.) The source article is essentially an advertisement for Betsy McConaughey's book about how Obamacare sucks.
You can read the rest of the Politifact article to see why even that premise is untrue.
Argue against if you like, but you should consider what the "journalists" you are reading think of you and of your intelligence when they attempt to lie and deceive you.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/09/21 18:24:50
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2013/09/21 20:18:49
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
whembly wrote: Almost twice as many people who have noticed changes in the health-care system after ObamaCare’s passage see more negative than positive.
Also interestingly...support level among women is much lower than among men, 38% and 46% respectively. o.O A little forecasting of a Democrat drubbing?
Is it graphs you want? Because I've got graphs And not just showing people are skeptical of a major new reform that's been the subject of a highly political attack campaign, but dollars and cents figures that should be driving healthcare discussion;
A 60% increase in the average private premium over ten years is bad, and long term is unsustainable (which is why healthcare reform has been such a big deal). And overall healthcare costs per person grew almost 50% in that 10 year period, and are going to continue growing at GDP + 1.2%, which means the issue is less of an immediate problem (it was GDP + 2.4%), but still something that needs fixing down the line. And then you look at that graph, and there's medicaid costing the same in 2001 that it costs today.
Medicare has been able to keep costs in line because Medicare can say no. This means it can reject some expensive, marginal care, and drive down prices elsewhere. So basically it's death panels, but they're only for the poor, and when it comes to being able to afford your healthcare system, they're pretty nice.
So maybe we should stop calling them death panels, and start calling them something sensible.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/09/23 09:03:26
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/23 15:29:22
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
whembly wrote: Almost twice as many people who have noticed changes in the health-care system after ObamaCare’s passage see more negative than positive.
Also interestingly...support level among women is much lower than among men, 38% and 46% respectively. o.O A little forecasting of a Democrat drubbing?
Is it graphs you want? Because I've got graphs And not just showing people are skeptical of a major new reform that's been the subject of a highly political attack campaign, but dollars and cents figures that should be driving healthcare discussion;
A 60% increase in the average private premium over ten years is bad, and long term is unsustainable (which is why healthcare reform has been such a big deal). And overall healthcare costs per person grew almost 50% in that 10 year period, and are going to continue growing at GDP + 1.2%, which means the issue is less of an immediate problem (it was GDP + 2.4%), but still something that needs fixing down the line. And then you look at that graph, and there's medicaid costing the same in 2001 that it costs today.
Never said Medicare was perfect...
I'd still argue that fixing (or making it stronger) Medicare and then include everyone, ala Canada, is the way to go.
So... what's your point really? That we needed to something about it? That was never in question... the debate was about how we should achieve this.
Medicare has been able to keep costs in line because Medicare can say no. This means it can reject some expensive, marginal care, and drive down prices elsewhere. So basically it's death panels, but they're only for the poor, and when it comes to being able to afford your healthcare system, they're pretty nice.
Being on Medicare <> you're poor.
Instead of "death panels", just call it a form of rationing.
So maybe we should stop calling them death panels, and start calling them something sensible.
Nah... then there would be no soundbites from our politicians... we need pazzaz man!
BTW: Just what the feth happened with your recent election? o.O
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/23 15:38:49
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Relapse wrote: I am not posting this as a beat stick on Obamacare, but I am genuinely interested in stories, good or bad about how your employer is getting ready for full implementation.
I remember fondly when thsi thread wasn't suppose to be a "beat stick" on Obamacare. Those were the days!
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2013/09/23 16:45:33
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
I was reading through the newspaper on how its affecting my state of Michigan. Ive heard that it was supposed to be easier and cheaper depending on where youre at income wise. While I was reading, it didnt seem cheaper or easier at all. The examples they were given, the wife and I fall into, were showing we'd probably be paying $150ish-$200ish a month for coverage. WTH? Thats cheaper? Because it feels exactly the same if not more for the same coverage.
So if it costs the same or more for everyone....what was the point of this thing again? Ive tried looking into it myself on Google, but with the amount of disinformation thats out there I honestly cant tell whos telling the truth and whos just watch the language please. Reds8n
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/25 07:30:45
2013/09/23 17:05:06
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
So maybe we should stop calling them death panels, and start calling them something sensible.
Nah... then there would be no soundbites from our politicians... we need pazzaz man!
How about instead of "death panel" we call them "life committees"?
Involuntary health care life coaches.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/23 17:09:31
Subject: Re:Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
I'd still argue that fixing (or making it stronger) Medicare and then include everyone, ala Canada, is the way to go.
Yeah, and I agree. But that graph above points out the reality of that option - it will only work in controlling long term costs if there are strong limits placed on what is treated and what is not.
So... what's your point really? That we needed to something about it? That was never in question... the debate was about how we should achieve this.
My point is that those numbers show which medical systems are currently keeping costs under control, and which are not, and that when people think about why (the ability to reject treatments as too expensive for what they deliver otherwise known as death panels). Hopefully from there they'll start getting serious about what controlling healthcare costs will really mean.
And note that's a general 'you', I don't mean you specifically.
Being on Medicare <> you're poor.
Sorry, brain fart on my part, meant medicaid, not medicare. Medicaid, you'll notice from the graph, is the one with zero growth in expense per patient... and it is the one you get when you're poor.
Instead of "death panels", just call it a form of rationing.
Basically, yeah. Have that rationing and then bring in a hybrid system (base level healthcare for all, subsidised private care if you want to pay more for a nicer bed, choice of doctor, access to the most expensive, marginal treatments) and you get the best of both worlds.
Nah... then there would be no soundbites from our politicians... we need pazzaz man!
The one thing your politics has no shortage of is pizzazz. It's why I like following it so much
BTW: Just what the feth happened with your recent election? o.O
Oh man, it was a doozy. I mean, it started out kind of depressing, with one side set to win because the other side just has just disintegrated (think your 2012 election, or 1980 before that), but then it just got weird.
The unpopular Labor government was always going down, but a lot of people weren't too happy with the ultra-conservative weirdo in charge of our other major party, the Liberals. Meanwhile, the third leg of mainstream politics, the Greens, were similarly on the nose because they'd just actually had some power and had to make compromises instead of spouting idealistic piffle, and their traditional voters did not like that.
So lots of votes were either deliberately spoiled, or cast for minor parties. None of which was unexpected, or a bad thing really. What was surprising, and disappointing was that few of the votes went to the more sensible minor parties, instead a lot of the votes went to novelty parties. Then, to compoud that, our terribly out of date senate system worked its wonders, and parties that received a miniscule number of direct votes ended up receiving a large number of preference votes from other minor parties, and basically fluked their way in to parliament. There's a guy from my home state who's platform is basically 'I like sport' and another guy in Victoria who's platform is 'I like hotted up cars'.
And on top of all of that we had our own Ross Perot, I don't know if he's richer but he's certainly more vain and his politics are even sillier. He wants to give everyone who puts in their tax return $3,000, and figures that's fine because it'll be spent and respent until the government has got it all back anyway. Free money. He won a seat in Queensland, which is kind of like your Florida (people retire there for the weather, all the weird news stories come from there and everyone else is a little embarassed that they're part of the country).
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/24 03:08:23
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
You won't be embarrassed by us when a Queenslander builds the titanic II. That same member of parliament no less. Saving the nation and conquering the seven seas, Clive Palmer, MP.
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/09/24 03:27:19
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
motyak wrote: You won't be embarrassed by us when a Queenslander builds the titanic II. That same member of parliament no less. Saving the nation and conquering the seven seas, Clive Palmer, MP.
Though to be fair, Clive isn't building the Titanic II - it's being built in China somewhere. Clive is just running about getting the funding for it. Though his Jurassic Park is pure Queensland built, and gives us the best animatronics 1987 can deliver
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/24 03:27:38
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/24 04:58:55
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
motyak wrote: You won't be embarrassed by us when a Queenslander builds the titanic II. That same member of parliament no less. Saving the nation and conquering the seven seas, Clive Palmer, MP.
Though to be fair, Clive isn't building the Titanic II - it's being built in China somewhere. Clive is just running about getting the funding for it. Though his Jurassic Park is pure Queensland built, and gives us the best animatronics 1987 can deliver
Woah woah ease up sebster, jeez. We don't want our dinosaur animatronics to outstrip our states health policies after all :p
Edit: huh, I just noticed, we managed to go from Obamacare to our election, titanic II, Jurassic park, and then right back to health care! Pretty impressive topic recovery.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/24 05:00:31
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2013/09/24 15:25:28
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Especially with stigma over mental health and abortions, people not wanting others to know if they were abused as children, etc. I can see why others may not want their medical history to be public viewing
There is also a good deal of stigma associated with many forms of employment. Hell, there is a good deal of stigma associated with college degrees. But I don't know many people who believe that one's academic record and employment history should not be avalable to the public.
And let us be clear, no one's medical history is being made public record due to ACA.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2013/09/24 15:34:40
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
Especially with stigma over mental health and abortions, people not wanting others to know if they were abused as children, etc. I can see why others may not want their medical history to be public viewing
There is also a good deal of stigma associated with many forms of employment. Hell, there is a good deal of stigma associated with college degrees. But I don't know many people who believe that one's academic record and employment history should not be avalable to the public.
yes, because medical/psychiatric/abuse history has the same stigma as which college degree someone has.....
dogma wrote: And let us be clear, no one's medical history is being made public record due to ACA.
I never made that claim, but thank you for playing
2013/09/25 03:14:19
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
motyak wrote: Woah woah ease up sebster, jeez. We don't want our dinosaur animatronics to outstrip our states health policies after all :p
Edit: huh, I just noticed, we managed to go from Obamacare to our election, titanic II, Jurassic park, and then right back to health care! Pretty impressive topic recovery.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2013/09/25 04:43:47
Subject: Is anyone noticing differences with their employers because of Obamacare?
I never made that claim, but thank you for playing
I never said that you did, but what did you mean by "public viewing"?
You just did your usual trick of quoting someone, then making a point that had nothing to do with what they said to bait them for a response, and then later claim that you weren't trying to attribute that point to them.
By public viewing I didn't mean "OMG the ACA will mean everyone's medical history and deepest darkest secrets are published for the world to see before a death panel drags them out to be shot by UN troops/Obama's Homeland Security army!!!!one!!eleven!!". If you go back and read the exchange that I quoted (to try and avoid misunderstandings and quoting out of context) you'll see that I was saying was that just because you aren't concerned with the privacy of your medical information doesn't mean that others aren't.
Simple. Straightforward. And hard to mis-interpret.
And not just showing people are skeptical of a major new reform that's been the subject of a highly political attack campaign, but dollars and cents figures that should be driving healthcare discussion;
