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 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Go show me the huge volumes of S 6/7 in 3rd edition.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

Yeah, and I remember CSM having even more than that in 2nd. I'm talking about 3rd, not 2nd. When they made non-SW non-CSM meqs playable.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah, that was a good idea on his part. Because S6/7 is eating meqs badly.

Since the day 40k was invented

Didn't exist in the volume/quality it does now though.

I remeber my 2nd Ed Space Wolves packing like 3-7 of them every game though various means.

Yeah, and I remember CSM having even more than that in 2nd. I'm talking about 3rd, not 2nd. When they made non-SW non-CSM meqs playable.

My point is that S6/7 was always avalible and in large numbers. Now it seems eveyone is taking them in large number.
Again somthing a New Codex: Blood Angels is not going to solve.

Being able to survive them better might be a solution.

Martel732 wrote:
Being able to survive them better might be a solution.

And what would be the salution?

The suggestion above where marines aren't wounded on "2's" would be a good thing. Granted, this would help all chapters, but meqs need it badly. Marines who want to hold firm and shoot back and also being vaporized by mass S6/7. It would also help BA getting across the board.

Martel732 wrote:
The suggestion above where marines aren't wounded on "2's" would be a good thing. Granted, this would help all chapters, but meqs need it badly. Marines who want to hold firm and shoot back and also being vaporized by mass S6/7. It would also help BA getting across the board.

I understand you pain on that.
GW is not going to NERF the Codex’s that are already out so get over that, please.

This Thread is about the Blood Angels and what would you like to be done with the Blood Angels, not what should be done with TauDar.

Okay then. Sanguinary priests hand out that rule to BA in addition to FNP. Forget FC. It sucks.

And this rule for Astartes is not a nerf on the other codices. They are still S6/7 for turning Rhinos into confetti.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay then. Sanguinary priests hand out that rule to BA in addition to FNP. Forget FC. It sucks.

And this rule for Astartes is not a nerf on the other codices. They are still S6/7 for turning Rhinos into confetti.

What Rule axactly, that Blood Angels can only be wounded on a 3+ when they have the Priest with them?

The one we're proposing in this very thread. From earlier:

"I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete."

Martel732 wrote:
The one we're proposing in this very thread. From earlier:

"I think one of the biggest issues marines face is that s6 and higher treats them like gretchin/ratlings. There's no statistical difference.

Therefore, if I could, I would add the following rule to the base rules, and would be faq'd to apply to all "marine" models. IE not sisters, guard, inquisition or the like, just the boys with the gene-seeds. This WOULD include chaos marines:

-Closer to monster than man (name WIP): Due to the intense amount of alterations, the astartes' bodies are much better equipped to handle extreme damage that would place other races in mortal peril. As long as all models in the unit possess this special rule, any roll to wound made against a model with this rule automatically fails to wound on a roll of 2, in addition to the normal automatic failure of rolling a 1.

Just an extra 17% chance for each guy to survive battle cannons, ion accelerators, plasma and the like might give the marines in general, including the heretic ones, the push they need to compete."

Intersting, I will have to think it over.

Of course, it would apply to all meqs to be fair. So you can see, I was not talking about nerfing other lists. Just making so marines are harder to wound-spam to death. Because as it stands now, Eldar don't need a single AP 2 or AP 3 weapon. They make us roll till we fail. Over and over.

Martel732 wrote:
Of course, it would apply to all meqs to be fair. So you can see, I was not talking about nerfing other lists. Just making so marines are harder to wound-spam to death. Because as it stands now, Eldar don't need a single AP 2 or AP 3 weapon. They make us roll till we fail. Over and over.

I could see adding the same limitations that would deny FNP.

No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

And you're in armour as tough as a tank. Your point is?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, that neuters it. Meqs need help against ion accelerators as well. No more watering things down for meqs. Nothing in Tau or Eldar or Daemons is watered down. It's a defensive ability; by its nature, it's harder to abuse than offensive abilities.

Yes, but a Marine still should be vaporised by a Weapon that would kill a Land Raider.

But removing a casualty isn't the vaporisation of the model in question, it represents the model no longer being able to fight. Increasing automatic failure merely represents the fact it takes a lot more to put a marine down, if you like, you can pretend that if you roll a 6 then he is really dead. Really, really dead.

You are still getting hit by an Ant-Tank Round.

And you're in armour as tough as a tank. Your point is?

I hate getting into realism, but…
Assuming an Autocannon, S7 AP4, this is about 20mm-50mm in size, the Large Human Body can survive being hit by it, but not normally. A Marine should have about double that chance so having to be wounded on a 3+ is oddly enough quite reasonable. That and his Armor will stop it 2/3s of the time also oddly enough quite reasonable and FNP could even make that reasonable.
A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

 Anpu42 wrote:

A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

And Marines can fight on despite such wounds.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

TBH Orbital Bombardments ought to be Str D anyway, it's just that the scale doesn't go above 10.

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

A Las-Cannon is going to leave a Bowling Ball Sized Hole in you and your armor if you are lucky.

And Marines can fight on despite such wounds.

 Anpu42 wrote:


Game Mechanics Wise, it seems to be a reasonable limit to the ability, otherwise you are surviving S10 Weapons orbit 2/3s of the time and nobody, but certain Special Characters with EW should be able to do that.

TBH Orbital Bombardments ought to be Str D anyway, it's just that the scale doesn't go above 10.

To be honest if we tried to go by fluff, the board game would be a riddle of a nightmare (and you'd have to roll who is the main character of the game )

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, if he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

Jefffar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, i he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

That's FAQd.

Fine you are looking at make Space Marines twice as effective at shrugging off wounds than anything in:
>Codex: Chaos Daemons
>Codex: Eldar [Including Wraith Knights]
>Codex: Necrons
>Codex: Tau
>Codex: Tyranid

Jefffar wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
This. Exalted for truth. I'd be amazed if I ever saw an assault deep strike unit manage to land next to a land raider, blow it up, then kill all the terminators inside before their army could blink.

Because I've seen a combat-squad'ed sternguard pod do exactly that, half combi melta then half combi plasma on the termies.

Trimmed by me to bring up an important point - that was illegal.

1) Split fire allows 1 model in the unit to fire at another target, not half the unit.

2) The unit must declare all it's targets before shooting, since the terminators were not a legal target when the unit fired (being inside a transport) they couldn't shoot at the terminators.

So yeah, no wonder shooting seems too powerful, you're doing it wrong.

Combat Squads. He's doing it right.

A transport can only hold one unit though, if he's combat squaded, he counts as two units, so he shouldn't be able to ride both in the drop pod.

Except combat squads have a specific exception to that.

He's doing it right.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's FAQd.

Why do I suddenly want to say 'CREEEED!!!' ?

well I've seen some Ideas in here I like that could actually be used. I think we all assume points drops are a given to actually happen....... hopefully....... unless something goes horribly wrong.

I will also state that I don't think its very likely at all that we will see assault out of deep strike (see tyranids) so with that in mind its better to think on ideas that make deep strike more survivable.

-Using JP's to move and to assault was a pretty good idea and would make BAs the fast moving units they should be.

Heres an Idea for you guys , how when arriving by deep strike DoA if a BA unit lands within x amount of inches of another unit it Stun/Knocks down the enemy unit and they can only fire snap shots on their next turn. This makes their precision Drops useful and allows you to survive a deep strike and also allows the opponent to fire at you and move away.

I will repeat that I think BA should have counter attack or similar special rule, a lot of the ideas on here just consist of making them better on the charge but if you don't make the charge or an opponent decides to charge you first and kill all your special rules (see DC with a chaplain as an example of the difference in power of getting the charge or being charged) then they are useless.

BAs should out n out be better at close combat than their vanilla counterparts, WS5 maybe? Its the same way I feel about SWs because its what these chapters train to do and that's beat you in the face. lets put a gap between those chapters not in C:SM so maybe we can end some of the argument.