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 Grey Knight Dillon wrote:
Melta weapons and ordinance should still fail on a one cause no ones aim is perfect and a marine isn't gonna die if he sees that his pinkie toe has been vaporized.

Die? Probably Not.

Rolling on the ground and screaming in pain because he just lost a part of himself to something that's really hot? Yes.

As I typed before: casualty =/= death

A marine may be tough, but everyone has a breaking point. Besides, I doubt a melta would just take a toe. Maybe the whole foot.

Here's a shocking idea. We roll to hit to find out if weapons hit things!

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Here's a shocking idea. We roll to hit to find out if weapons hit things!

Out, out with your damn logic!

I always enjoyed the changes to armour saves in an earlier addition. Lascannon is -6 to save etc.....

Kinda made sense in my mind that armour has more chance against lesser weapons. Rather than a blanket, you get a save or you don't.

Why do you favour marines more than any other troops? In current edition all troops are bad on their own. It's not a reason to buff someone explictly while letting others down. Marines allready have lots of free buffs over the others. Tha fact that infantry dies horribly to current meta shooting is not an excuse to buff just one type of infantry.

 koooaei wrote:
Why do you favour marines more than any other troops? In current edition all troops are bad on their own. It's not a reason to buff someone explictly while letting others down. Marines allready have lots of free buffs over the others. Tha fact that infantry dies horribly to current meta shooting is not an excuse to buff just one type of infantry.

 koooaei wrote:
Marines allready have lots of free buffs over the others.

 koooaei wrote:
free buffs

Rofl, are you serious?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Rofl, are you serious?

Why not?

I can't think of another troop choice that has as many special rules tacked on as even a basic Tactical marine.

The problem isn't that marines are bad or can't survive things, its that the Tau and Eldar books put out too much firepower for too little cost.

I'm not a fan of this idea for many reasons, but I think mostly because its simply a band-aid on the symptom, rather than trying to address the root cause.

I think it'd make the game far better for every codex if Eldar and Tau were brought into line. Marines, by comparison, would be more durable and worth the 14pts/model.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Rofl, are you serious?

Why not?

I can't think of another troop choice that has as many special rules tacked on as even a basic Tactical marine.

The problem isn't that marines are bad or can't survive things, its that the Tau and Eldar books put out too much firepower for too little cost.

I'm not a fan of this idea for many reasons, but I think mostly because its simply a band-aid on the symptom, rather than trying to address the root cause.

I think it'd make the game far better for every codex if Eldar and Tau were brought into line. Marines, by comparison, would be more durable and worth the 14pts/model.

Yes. The Tau and Eldar codices are ridiculous, especially when they are allied together.

 Blacksails wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Rofl, are you serious?

Why not?

I can't think of another troop choice that has as many special rules tacked on as even a basic Tactical marine.

The problem isn't that marines are bad or can't survive things, its that the Tau and Eldar books put out too much firepower for too little cost.

I'm not a fan of this idea for many reasons, but I think mostly because its simply a band-aid on the symptom, rather than trying to address the root cause.

I think it'd make the game far better for every codex if Eldar and Tau were brought into line. Marines, by comparison, would be more durable and worth the 14pts/model.

I agree with this. My ideas for "fixes" to marine durability usually involve changes like making ICs unable to join riptides, changing marker lights back to one token to remove one level of cover save, nerfing the serpent shield, and possibly a change to scatter lasers

What's wrong with scatter lasers?

They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

Yes, it is.

For most infantry, getting wounded on a 2+ by a weapon that then twinlinks the other weapons on the same model is ouchier than getting hit by a 4+ to wound weapon, even if it the gets rerolls.

Never underestimate the scatter laser.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

The difference being that a Scatter Laser can take on light armour effectively as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

The difference being that a Scatter Laser can take on light armour effectively as well.

Yep, as I said - S value.

So they wreck infantry AND vehicles.

Kelly is truly the greatest codex writer

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

The difference being that a Scatter Laser can take on light armour effectively as well.

Yep, as I said - S value.

So they wreck infantry AND vehicles.

Kelly is truly the greatest codex writer

You said they were worse due to the S value; they're not.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

The difference being that a Scatter Laser can take on light armour effectively as well.

Yep, as I said - S value.

So they wreck infantry AND vehicles.

Kelly is truly the greatest codex writer

You said they were worse due to the S value; they're not.

Oh sorry, bit of a misunderstanding.

When I said worse, I meant worse to fight against it. Just as the outcome of a squad of marines getting shot by a plasma gun is worse than getting shot by an autocannon, since more of them die.

The scatter laser is indeed superior to the splinter cannon.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Why do you favour marines more than any other troops? In current edition all troops are bad on their own. It's not a reason to buff someone explictly while letting others down. Marines allready have lots of free buffs over the others. Tha fact that infantry dies horribly to current meta shooting is not an excuse to buff just one type of infantry.

 koooaei wrote:
Marines allready have lots of free buffs over the others.

 koooaei wrote:
free buffs

Rofl, are you serious?

Compare them with the closest equivalent - csm. For 1 pt you get atsknf and chapter tactix. No other troops get so much love as sm do except for tau and eldar. That's not a reason to make marines stronger for free.

About scatter lasers. Statistically, 3 walkers put around 15-16 wounds on anything with t4 or below. They have shoot and run, run and shoot, 5++, fleet and scout. And cost just 70 pts per one.

That CSM are worse does not make tacs good.

The Splinter Cannon had its place when there were Iron Armed MCs and FMCs on the table for the Tyranids. Not as quote as useful now-a-days, enough to certainly give the already better Scatter Laser more of a lead.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
What's wrong with scatter lasers?

Sums up a lot of problems with GW and 40K.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
They're too widely available and easily spammed. A Warwalker with a twin-linked scatter laser is reasonable and equivalent to an elite Sentinel. A War-walker with two separate scatterlasers puts out an insanely high volume of fire for a ridiculously cheap price.

Especially given that almost nothing else in the game can take two of the same weapon without twinlinking it. The other army that can do that lots only got the ability to do so in the codex that broke them.

So...they are like the venom cannons on the venoms then, except worse since they have a S value?

That's scary.

The difference being that a Scatter Laser can take on light armour effectively as well.

Yep, as I said - S value.

So they wreck infantry AND vehicles.

Kelly is truly the greatest codex writer

You said they were worse due to the S value; they're not.

Oh sorry, bit of a misunderstanding.

When I said worse, I meant worse to fight against it. Just as the outcome of a squad of marines getting shot by a plasma gun is worse than getting shot by an autocannon, since more of them die.

The scatter laser is indeed superior to the splinter cannon.

Oh, fair enough then.

The 'all-round' aspect of Marines is soooooooooo overvalued.

Shootaboyz with a PK nob are much better than Space Marines at being Space Marines, that is, allrounders.

Well, why don't you playtest what you say? Suddenly tacticals become totally like ork boyz. Without kff, wagonz and psy-power buffs boyz are no good at all. And in marine codex they'll be plain worthless and overpriced. If you're sure it's wrong - prove it!

Tacticals are less efficient boyz with no kff, wagonz, or psy-power buffs. In the marine codex, they are indeed plain worthless and overpriced. This is proven every time some one fields tacticals.