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Probably, but you're not helping yourself by getting your terminology wrong. Space Marine Scout Squads can't Scout no matter what rules you look at. You probably mean Infiltrate.

Your right. Im sorry. I actually meant to say "Stealth Training" as that is the correct name for the Space Marine Scout Squad special rule.

Holy frijoles!

Can we start over here?


The last, and only, premise-conclusion formatted post on why Devilfish can have Scout was posted back on PAGE 1 IN THE 5th POST by Basileus66, and was immediately shot down.

Can one of you in the pro-scout camp PLEASE post a properly formatted argument stating why the Devilfish can Scout? It is you who is attempting to give a vehicle a rule normally reserved for troops after all, and you must prove that you can do something before you do it.

P1: Codex Tau empire, page 38 gives "Scout" to Pathfinders specifically, not a Devilfish. Therefore the Devilfish cannot scout.

P2: Codex Space Marines, page 34 gives "Stealth Training" to Scouts specifically, not a Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant. Therefore the Sergeant/Veteran Sergeant cannot infiltrate/Move Through Cover.

P3: Codex Withchunters, page 35 gives "Hit and Run" to Seraphims specifically, not a Veteran Superiors. Therefore the Veteran Superiors cannot hit and run.

C: Claiming that a Devilfish bought as part of a Pathfinder Team cannot Scout requires an interpretation of the rules that also prevents a Seraphim Squad from ever using Hit and Run, and prevents a Scout Squad from ever using Infiltrate/Move Through Cover.


The Devilsfish entry on page 36 does not have to have the "Scout"-rules written into it for it to apply to the particular Devilfish bought as part of a Pathfinder Team. It is quite obvious that not all Devilfishes are supposed to have the "Scout"-rule. Only the ones bought as part of a Pathfinder Team.
Why does the "Scout"-rule apply to both the Pathfinders AND the Devilfish? Because any other application of that special rule in that entry will have a devastating effect on the system as a whole.

I could restate the same simple point over and over, that the devilfish can't scout because they lack a scout rule, but I said that on page 1.

Watch him dodge and dance!

So, my question to you, Mauleed, is this; By using you interpretation, Can Space Marine Scout Squads Infiltrate/Move Through Cover?

GeneralIrecar

Special Rules: This is where you'll find any special rules that apply to the UNIT. (Caps for emphasis).

thanks man i missed that part of the codex

 that official rule from GW ends this debate-pathfinder teams can scout and so can thier fish since it is part of the team/unit that is affected by the special rule.

From this, and the Pathfinder entry, the obvious conclusion is that unless specifically mentioned (As in the case of the Marker Beacon rules for the Pathfinder's Devilfish) that the Special Rules listed in the UNIT ENTRY apply to the entire UNIT.

pathfinder teams can scout and so can thier fish since it is part of the team/unit that is affected by the special rule.

Oh, Pathfinder teams and their fish form a unit, which can scout. That makes sense. Ok.

Just as long as you keep the Fish in unit coherency with the Pathfinders and count it as a member of the unit when determining morale checks and half-strength.

Just as long as you keep the Fish in unit coherency with the Pathfinders and count it as a member of the unit when determining morale checks and half-strength.

tau codex p36

"transport: devilfish troop carrier"

40K core rulebook p58

"vehicle characteristics-vehicles do not fight in the same way as creatures of flesh and blood. thier characteristics are different"

note: their characteristics are different  as thier are a dedicated transport and also an  independant vehicle. this does not affect any special rules given the unit that the vehicle is part of.

p62

"disembarking [from transports] the vehicle can then move off seperately at up to full speed"

you have no argument as the basic rules for vehicles already exhist

 

 

you have no argument as the basic rules for vehicles already exhist

So you're now allowed to ignore the rules for units? You said that the Pathfinders and their Devilfish formed a unit. ICs are allowed to leave units. Infantry cannot leave units. Vehicles cannot leave units.

So you're now allowed to ignore the rules for units? You said that the Pathfinders and their Devilfish formed a unit. ICs are allowed to leave units. Infantry cannot leave units. Vehicles cannot leave units.

Only in the same way that a Space Marine Squad and a Rhino bought as a transport forms a unit. The BGB is not very clear on the rules concerning their interaction when it comes to this problem.

A strict RAW reading does not allow any transport to leave unit coherency with the models it is bought for. Maybe Marines
are only allowed to run around in circles around their Drop Pod. (Perhaps they left something in the glove-compartment)

Maybe we have all been playing how transports work wrong or maybe such a strict reading is not correct.

Posted By Steelmage99 on 05/01/2006 6:06 PM

I could restate the same simple point over and over, that the devilfish can't scout because they lack a scout rule, but I said that on page 1.

Watch him dodge and dance!

So, my question to you, Mauleed, is this; By using you interpretation, Can Space Marine Scout Squads Infiltrate/Move Through Cover?

Whether they can or can not has no relevance on this argument. Open another thread if you'd like that addressed.

Posted By mughi3 on 05/01/2006 9:47 PM

GeneralIrecar

Special Rules: This is where you'll find any special rules that apply to the UNIT. (Caps for emphasis).

thanks man i missed that part of the codex

 that official rule from GW ends this debate-pathfinder teams can scout and so can thier fish since it is part of the team/unit that is affected by the special rule.

Look people, another idiotic "The pathfinders and the devilfish are actually one unit" argument.

If you make this argument, I suggest you stop posting now, as rule rules for 40k are too complicated for you.

And it comes full circle, back to the 'unit' argument.

Look,

Either the DFish is a part of the unit, or it is not. It is not "part of the unit some of the time" (when you would gain a benefit), and "not a part of the unit the rest of the time" (when it would hurt you).

CHOOSE ONE AND PROVE IT.


Some of you are claiming that the "UNIT ENTRY apply to the entire UNIT" rule grants the DFish Scout because the DFish is part of the unit. If you choose this path, you MUST take everything else that goes along with it, including: maintenance of unit coherency, inability to split fire, movement restricted to the slowest model, etc...

Others of you are claiming that the DFish is part of the unit "Only in the same way that a Space Marine Squad and a Rhino bought as a transport forms a unit". This particular claim is based on a false idea, Dedicated Transports are NEVER part of the unit they are purchased with. Don't confuse FOC slots and Units.


Choose one people! Either the DFish is part of the unit, or it is not.


@ Steelmage

Right idea, bad execution. Focus on the scout rule within the Tau Codex and build your premises around that, your P1 is actually the conclusion that you are trying to prove/disprove.
Afterwards we can debate the other Codices using the same format in a different thread. Drawing parallels to other broken rules does not help your argument, it simply clouds the issue. Focus and persevere, divide and be conquered.

Interesting, blue loki, but completely irrelevant.

Fact: The Devilfish is part of the unit. The Codex clearly states as much (something along the lines of "a team consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish").

Fact: The Devilfish is not a Pathfinder. The Codex clearly states as much (something along the lines of "a team consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish", thus differentiating between what is a 'Pathfinder', i.e. a Shas'la or Shas'ui, and what is not, i.e. the Devilfish).

Fact: The Devilfish does not get the Scout ability. The Codex clearly states as much (something along the lines of "Pathfinders get the Scout USR").

Now, whether you, I, Ed, or anyone else on this forum believe this to be right or wrong (and personally I believe it's wrong) is of no consequence whatsoever. That's what the rules say. And, to repeat myself, that leaves everyone with three choices: play by the rules, house-rule it, or cheat.

"Fact: The Devilfish is part of the unit. The Codex clearly states as much (something along the lines of "a team consists of 4-8 Pathfinders and a Devilfish")."

I have no rebuttal other than you simply must be a moron to beleive what you wrote, and it's pointless to argue with a moron.

For everyone who isn't a moron: the pathfinders and devilfish can't form a single unit. You can't have a unit of vehicle and non-vehicle models. When you see an argument that depends on them being one unit, simply ignore it. It's the ramblings of the inept.

Hey, leave the insults at home Ed. I'm on your side, remember?

And get your facts right. I never said that the Pathfinders and the Devilfish are a unit. I said they are each part of the unit. The Pathfinders are the unit, the Devilfish is the unit's transport. (Thus it has different rules to the unit.)

Posted By Stu-Rat on 05/02/2006 10:13 AM
Hey, leave the insults at home Ed. I'm on your side, remember?

And get your facts right. I never said that the Pathfinders and the Devilfish are a unit. I said they are each part of the unit. The Pathfinders are the unit, the Devilfish is the unit's transport. (Thus it has different rules to the unit.)

You contradict yourself.

The devilfish and pathfinders are exactly two units. Not one. Not sometimes two, but sometimes one. Not sometimes 1.5.

Exactly 2. Always.

Obviously you don't understand what a unit is, and you're confused. Bow out, do some reading and weigh in after you understand that a "team" isn't a unit.

you MUST take everything else that goes along with it, including

and so must you.

it means taking all the various rules that apply.

1.as per the core rulebook for vehicle rules the devilfish that is part of the pathfinder team is a dedidcated transport vehicle and is capable of dropping off the pathfinders and operating independant of them.

2.as per the tau codex the special rules section of the entry applies to the entire team.

3.as per the tau codex the entry for a pathfinder team consists of 4-8 pathfinders and a devilfish transport. . the special rules that apply to the team  is the ability to scout.

even for GW i don't know how much clearer they could make it-the team has the special ability to scout, the team includes the devilfish transport. hence the entrire team can scout and the fish being a vehicle can do so independant of the troops it is dedicated to carry.

Posted By mughi3 on 05/02/2006 10:50 AM

1.as per the core rulebook for vehicle rules the devilfish that is part of the pathfinder team is a dedidcated transport vehicle and is capable of dropping off the pathfinders and operating independant of them.

 

 

But you are not claiming that the Devil Fish is a 'dedicated transport'. You are claiming that it is an actual part of the unit. Either that or you are claiming both.

These are two very different things. If you are claiming both sets of rules, you must abide by both of them.

 

Dedicated transports act in that way because they are NOT a part of the unit. If in fact the DFish IS a part of the unit, then this is a completely new concept in the world of 40k. Unless you are specifically told that you can ignore the inherent rules which apply to every independent aspect of this new unit, then you must abide by each and every one of them fully.

Posted By blue loki on 05/02/2006 7:57 AM
And it comes full circle, back to the 'unit' argument.

Look,

Either the DFish is a part of the unit, or it is not. It is not" some="" gain="" benefit="" and="" not="" a="" part="" unit="" rest="" of="" the="" time="" (when="" it="" would="" hurt="" you="">

CHOOSE ONE AND PROVE IT.


Some of you are claiming that the "UNIT ENTRY apply to the entire UNIT" rule grants the DFish Scout because the DFish is part of the unit. If you choose this path, you MUST take everything else that goes along with it, including: maintenance of unit coherency, inability to split fire, movement restricted to the slowest model, etc...

Others of you are claiming that the DFish is part of the unit "Only in the same way that a Space Marine Squad and a Rhino bought as a transport forms a unit". This particular claim is based on a false idea, Dedicated Transports are NEVER part of the unit they are purchased with. Don't confuse FOC slots and Units.


Choose one people! Either the DFish is part of the unit, or it is not.

If you use that opinion to try and tie the Pathfinder's Fish to them with Unit Coherency, you have to do so to every other transport that is dedicated because, as per the rules, when you take a Dedicated Transport it becomes part of that unit. So, that means all those Rhinos, Fire Warrior Fishes, Dark Eldar Raiders, etc., must move and maintain unit coherency with the units they are assigned/dedicated to. Why? You can't field dedicated transport by themselves, they must be ASSIGNED to a unit much like our Pathfinder's Fish.

Because of this established precedent, that vehicles who are dedicated to a unit do not inherently need to form Unit Coherency with the Unit they are assigned to (And, in fact, only form 'squads' that need to maintain Unit Coherency with other vehicles), one could argue that a Devilfish can be part of a unit (Particularly so with Pathfinders, as you CANNOT field a Pathfinder team without a Fish) and not need to maintain Unit Coherency as you claim it would while benefitting from any 'squad-wide' Special Rules that apply to the Unit.

Posted By mauleed on 05/02/2006 10:25 AM

posted="" by="" stu-rat="" on="" 05/02/2006="" 10:13="" am="">
Hey, leave the insults at home Ed. I'm on your side, remember?

And get your facts right. I never said that the Pathfinders and the Devilfish are a unit. I said they are each part of the unit. The Pathfinders are the unit, the Devilfish is the unit's transport. (Thus it has different rules to the unit.)

You contradict yourself.

The devilfish and pathfinders are exactly two units. Not one. Not sometimes two, but sometimes one. Not sometimes 1.5.

Exactly 2. Always.

Obviously you don't understand what a unit is, and you're confused. Bow out, do some reading and weigh in after you understand that a "team" isn't a unit.

I don't see how vehicles and infantry can be combined in the same unit. There are too many difference for how they work in the game, for example, no Leadership for vehicles.

It would be reasonable to claim that the team comprises pathfinders and a Devifish (separate units) because this is what the codex entry says.

If the team had the Scout ability, then obviously both components would have it regardless of any other characteristics they might have individually. Thus the meaning of the rule depends on how one interprets the phrase giving "Pathfinders" the Scout ability. If it said "Pathfinder Teams" there would be no controversy.

Posted By GeneralIrecar on 05/02/2006 11:06 AM
when you take a Dedicated Transport it becomes part of that unit.

This is completely false and at the core of some of the misunderstanding involved here.

This is completely false and at the core of some of the misunderstanding involved here.

Yeah, I tried explaining this last night, but then they started insisting that there was an alternate definition for units. You know, some defintition not in the rulebook.

(Pg 62) "Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but where in that statement does it not imply that the transport is assigned, and therefore part of, the unit?

Assigned does not necessarily mean "part of." If it is part of the unit, then it's stuck with all the rules that govern units: unit coherency, unit strength, etc.

You're part of a unit in the rules sense or you aren't. And there's no way that a Devilfish is actually part of the unit.

You are assuming that "assigned" = "part of".

This is false. The dedicated transport is under the command/control of, yet not a part of, the unit that it is assigned to.

Then, using that same logic, you would say that as the Pathfinder Devilfish is required, it can take the scout rules. However, as a transport option it is a "Dedicated Transport" and thus not subject to the Unit Coherency rules, being assigned to, but not part of the unit.

This specifically becomes evident when in the Pathfinder entry, it mentions you MUST take a transport, yet lists the Devilfish as in the "Transport: " entry in the Pathfinder's list, clearly marking the Devilfish as both part of the unit, yet as a Dedicated Transport.

So, it could be considered as required and subject to rules that apply to Pathfinders as a unit, yet not part of that unit as a dedicated transport.

Also, if the scout special rule would not apply to the Devilfish, as the Special Rules entry only applies to models in the unit, then the only way to use the Marker Beacon rule that applies to the Devilfish would be to assume that it is part of the unit, and thus subject to Unit Coherency.

However, there is no precedent or rule for vehicles and infantry within the same unit, sharing coherency with each other (As far as I am aware). There are units of vehicles, and units of infantry, but no infantry-vehicle units (Again, as far as I am aware). Thus, it seems strange they would mean for the Devilfish to be 'unitized' with the Pathfinders.

I think that perhaps, my earlier idea could be GW's intention. It is certainly plausible in the rules, or in the arguments we have been having.

Posted By GeneralIrecar on 05/02/2006 1:16 PM
(Pg 62) "Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected along with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but where in that statement does it not imply that the transport is assigned, and therefore part of, the unit?

You are wrong. There, you've been corrected!

If anything, it implies that the unit and the transport are two distinct things (which other rules confirm is the only option).

You cannot read a single rule out of context. It has to be seen within the framework of the entire rule-set. Hence it is relevant to compare this issue to the Seraphim/Hit and Run and Veteran Sergeant/Infiltrate.

The rules collapse if you enforce the "Devilfishfish (as bought as part of a Pathfinder Team) cant Scout"-doctrine, forcing Scout Squads never to Infiltrate and so on. This in turn forces players to either cheat or make house-rules. The way we read rules must be applied unifomly across the board.

NP. Note that I do not in any way, shape or form think that Devilfish and the Pathfinders form one unit.

First, that's a slippery slope falacy. You can't say "well X can't be true because it would mean Y is a bad thing" and have that prove your argument. Y may indeed be true and bad.

Regardless, this is completely different from the scouts infiltrating or stingwing fleeting example. And again, perhaps scouts don't infiltrate (yes, obviously they do) and perhaps vespid don't fleet until their leader dies.

I think people skipped this post I made, that may (Or, probably not) try and explain the issue..

Then, using that same logic, you would say that as the Pathfinder Devilfish is required, it can take the scout rules. However, as a transport option it is a "Dedicated Transport" and thus not subject to the Unit Coherency rules, being assigned to, but not part of the unit.

This specifically becomes evident when in the Pathfinder entry, it mentions you MUST take a transport, yet lists the Devilfish as in the "Transport: " entry in the Pathfinder's list, clearly marking the Devilfish as both part of the unit, yet as a Dedicated Transport.

So, it could be considered as required and subject to rules that apply to Pathfinders as a unit, yet not part of that unit as a dedicated transport.

Also, if the scout special rule would not apply to the Devilfish, as the Special Rules entry only applies to models in the unit, then the only way to use the Marker Beacon rule that applies to the Devilfish would be to assume that it is part of the unit, and thus subject to Unit Coherency.

However, there is no precedent or rule for vehicles and infantry within the same unit, sharing coherency with each other (As far as I am aware). There are units of vehicles, and units of infantry, but no infantry-vehicle units (Again, as far as I am aware). Thus, it seems strange they would mean for the Devilfish to be 'unitized' with the Pathfinders.

I think that perhaps, my earlier idea could be GW's intention. It is certainly plausible in the rules, or in the arguments we have been having.